Israeli Tanks lined up and ready to roll

[Andy9o8 0]

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Bill, I was wondering. How does one tell who is Hesbollah and who isn't? Do they have identifiable uniforms? Or are they just like regular civilians, in civilian clothing but with a really big gun hanging 'round their neck? Serious question, honest question...

One thing you can be sure of in the picture Bill posted is this. The big red plus sign on the white background that the Israeli Bomb went threw that was no Hezbolah. Serious answer here.

Actually, it completely evades Michele's question. So let's ask it again: given that Hezbollah fighters wear civilian clothes and not uniforms, how does one distinguish between a military-age male who is a civilian non-combatant, and a military-age male who is a combatant?

By the way, I agree that vehicles marked with a red cross or white flag should be off limits to hostile fire. But anyone who thinks Hezbollah fighters do not sometimes utilize such vehicles to hide themselves or their weapons in - in clear violation of the laws of war (specifically because doing that makes such vehicles a target and places non-combatants in jeopardy) - is being naive.

[Trent 0]

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As for the "Mini-Katyushas" pictured by Trent, can I ask WHERE the pics came from? I understand that Hezb'Allah used BM-21 & Fajr-3 rockets in their attacks. Those are very definitely truck mounted - need to be for the range to reach Israel from Tyre (which Israel is bombing).

Sure thing, buddy! Also note the other pictures of arms shipments intercepted. Wonder where they came from. They're not large rockets, you don't need a whole vehicle-mounted battery to launch. But it is interesting that the mobile launchers they DO have are the Fajrs... from Iran. Do you really think that a terrorist group like Hezbollah wouldn't modify launchers to make them more concealable and portable? Mobile launchers are too easy to target... like I said... these smaller ones are easier to hide in residential areas and inside cars and vans, which serves their secondary purpose of getting their people killed to gain more sympathy.

It's also the first link on Google when you seach for "Katyusha pictures". Enjoy!

http://www.cedarland.org/501.html

Oh, hello again!

[warpedskydiver 0]

They may have been coerced, that was my point.

[Stumpy 256]

Anything to even suggest that might be true? or are you grabbing at straws?

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[warpedskydiver 0]

I was only wondering, playing what if?

I would suppose that to some thinking of these scenarios is pointless, but that it the entire point to cover all possibilities.

[miked10270 0]

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As for the "Mini-Katyushas" pictured by Trent, can I ask WHERE the pics came from?

Sure thing, buddy!

http://www.cedarland.org/501.html

Thanks Trent.

Good source.
Regards,

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[skydyvr 0]

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One thing you can be sure of in the picture Bill posted is this. The big red plus sign on the white background that the Israeli Bomb went threw that was no Hezbolah.

As long as the Hezbolla pussy-men keep hiding themselves among the population, shit like this will happen, which BTW seems to be just what they want.

. . =(_8^(1)

[miked10270 0]

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As long as the Hezbolla pussy-men keep hiding themselves among the population, shit like this will happen, which BTW seems to be just what they want.

Since Hezb'Allah & Hamas know they can't line up tanks on a battlefield, they fight as best and as effectively they can.

It's called "Asymmetric Warfare". America had it in Vietnam. Britain had it in Northern Ireland. The Coalition has it in Iraq & Afghanistan... And Israel has it in Lebanon & Palestine.

What sets Israel apart is it's current response and rules of engagement, which falls far short of American & British Rules of Engagement in such a situation. Israel commonly carries out acts which would (properly) result in war-crimes charges in any other western military.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[skydyvr 0]

Fox is rolling live cameras in Gaza right now. Now I know some people think even their cameras are biased, but what I see through the cameras are Israeli's coming down the street trying to discern between the not-so-innocent civilians and the militants.

Stand tall and face the enemy you provoke, or lay down your arms and surrender.

Fags.

. . =(_8^(1)

[skydyvr 0]

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It's called "Asymmetric Warfare". America had it in Vietnam.

I call it collective pussy-ism at it's worst, wherever it occurs.

. . =(_8^(1)

[livendive 8]

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>but I'd say that a group that intentionally targets and kills civilians is
>worse than a group that exposes civilians to the possibility of being
>killed by their own people.

Agreed. But both sides are doing that. Witness the recent targeting of ambulances, fleeing civilians and UN buildings by Israel.

I haven't had time to keep up recently re: ambulances and fleeing civilians, but I did read about the UN building. That sucks. I'm wondering if there's any reasonable explanation, but from what the UN has said, it'd difficult to imagine one.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[livendive 8]

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Actually, it completely evades Michele's question. So let's ask it again: given that Hezbollah fighters wear civilian clothes and not uniforms, how does one distinguish between a military-age male who is a civilian non-combatant, and a military-age male who is a combatant?

One doesn't. Instead, one assumes that 100% of those killed by the Israeli's were civilians and they've yet to kill one Hezbollah fighter.

By the way, how many different ways are there to spell the name for the group the Israeli's are fighting?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[SkyDekker 1,123]

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One doesn't. Instead, one assumes that 100% of those killed by the Israeli's were civilians and they've yet to kill one Hezbollah fighter.

Or if you are on the otehr side of the argument, you assume 100% they are hezbolla and none of them are innocent civilians.....

As always, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Though, since the Israelis seem to have an ongoing problem with discerning the difference between a UN observation post and an Hezbolla stronghold, I would have to question their identifying abilities....

[idrankwhat 0]

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I know you realize just how close we/they came to using them. Want to go through that again, this time with an even zanier group?

Who, the US?


More Than 470 Physicists Sign Petition To Oppose U.S. Policy On Nuclear Attack

More than 470 physicists, including seven Nobel laureates, have signed a petition to oppose a new U.S. Defense Department proposal that allows the United States to use nuclear weapons against non-nuclear states.

The petition was started by two physics professors at the University of California, San Diego, Kim Griest and Jorge Hirsch, who said they felt an obligation to speak out about the nuclear policy change because their profession brought nuclear weapons into the world 60 years ago.

They and other prominent physicists who signed the petition—which will be delivered to members of Congress, scientific professional societies and the news media—object to the new policy because it blurs the sharp line between nuclear weapons and conventional, chemical and biological weapons.

“While it has long been a U.S. policy to use nuclear weapons in order to respond to a nuclear attack,” said Hirsch, “the new policy allows the U.S. to use nuclear weapons against states that do not have nuclear weapons and for a host of new reasons, including rapid termination of a conflict on U.S. terms or to ensure success of the U.S. forces.”

“Humanity has gone more than half a century without using nuclear weapons, in large part because of the success of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty,” said Griest. “The U.S. use of nuclear weapons against non-nuclear states will destroy the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and give strong incentive for other countries to develop and use nuclear weapons, thus making nuclear war more likely. As physicists we feel we need to bring this to the attention of policy makers and the public, in order to engender discussion, debate, and hopefully repudiation of the new policy.”

The two physicists began their grass roots petition last month following reports in The New York Times and Washington Post that the federal government was in the final process of adopting a new U.S. policy that would permit the use of nuclear weapons against an adversary for the following reasons:

* For rapid and favorable war termination on U.S. terms.
* To ensure success of U.S. and multinational operations.
* To demonstrate U.S. intent and capability to use nuclear weapons to deter adversary use of weapons of mass destruction.
* Against an adversary intending to use weapons of mass destruction against US, multinational, or alliance forces.

Griest and Hirsch put their petition on the internet at http://physics.ucsd.edu/petition/ , invited their colleagues to sign and quickly received an avalanche of responses.

The petition is signed by two past presidents of the American Physical Society, the premier professional organization for U.S. physicists—George Trilling of UC Berkeley and Jerome Friedman of MIT. Friedman, who is also a Nobel laureate, was joined on the petition by six other Nobel Prizewinners in physics—Philip Anderson of Princeton University, Anthony Leggett of the University of Illinois, Douglas Osheroff of Stanford University, Daniel Tsui of Princeton University, Steven Weinberg of the University of Texas and Frank Wilczek of MIT.

Other prominent physicists on the petition include Fields Medal winner Edward Witten of the Institute for Advanced Study, Wolf Prize laureates Michael Fisher of the University of Maryland and Daniel Kleppner of MIT, and Leo Kadanoff of the University of Chicago, a recipient of the National Medal of Science and president-elect of the American Physical Society.

“We point out in the petition that nuclear weapons are on a completely different scale than other weapons of mass destruction and conventional weapons and that the underlying principle of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty is that in exchange for other countries forgoing the development of nuclear weapons, the nuclear weapon states will pursue nuclear disarmament,” said Hirsch. 'Instead, this new U.S. policy dramatically increases the risk of nuclear proliferation and, ultimately, the risk that regional conflicts will explode into all-out nuclear war, with the potential to destroy our civilization.”

The physicists hope to gain additional supporters before a meeting of the executive board of the American Physical Society on November 18 and a meeting of the International Atomic Energy Agency on November 24.

http://www.physlink.com/News/102605NuclearPetition.cfm

News Story Origin and Copyright:
UCSD : http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu

Original news release:
http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/newsrel/science/mcpetition.asp

[livendive 8]

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One doesn't. Instead, one assumes that 100% of those killed by the Israeli's were civilians and they've yet to kill one Hezbollah fighter.

Or if you are on the otehr side of the argument, you assume 100% they are hezbolla and none of them are innocent civilians.....

As always, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

I agree with you. That said, everyone crying about media bias need only look at the reports of deaths on the Lebanese side. Everything I've read so far (minus one bombing of a military installation) has listed all of the casualties as "civilians".

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[miked10270 0]

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By the way, how many different ways are there to spell the name for the group the Israeli's are fighting?

I go with "Hezb'Allah" (The voice / party of God). Some go with a phonetic spelling.

Some go with a derogatory term like "Pussies", conveniently forgetting that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter and thus showing their bias.

In the meantime, Hezb'Allah remains largely intact, chiefly to Israel only killing it's members at the same rate as the general population.

Mike.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[kallend 1,623]

Seems to me that both sides are behaving extremely badly, as are their sponsor states. I can't find any positives to say for either side. It's like saying Jack the Ripper was a good guy because John Wayne Gacy killed more victims.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skydyvr 0]

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Some go with a derogatory term like "Pussies"

I like that one, because it's most accurate.

Cite me an American rebel in the 1700's that fired his weapon at the enemy from behind women and children, and I'll label him just the same.

. . =(_8^(1)

[idrankwhat 0]

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I am so glad you did not stoop to posting propaganda

You can call it propaganda, and I am not saying that its not necessarily. However it is extremely accurate.

[Amazon 7]

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One thing you can be sure of in the picture Bill posted is this. The big red plus sign on the white background that the Israeli Bomb went threw that was no Hezbolah. Serious answer here.

That is an all too simple answer... IF and that is a BIG IF....... your peace loving down trodden breatheren in Hezbollah would not have used ambulances... and hospitals ...mosques....schools....
OVER AND OVER and OVER.. to move around military supplies... and to store them... IN contravention to all those rules of war you accuse Israel of not giving a dayum about.. then perhaps some might think it a horrible thing...personally.....I think from the placement of the rocket.. that was one hell of a shot.

If you dont like things being targeted( this for all you Hezbollah apologists....) DONT FUCKING put the tools of war in ambualances.. as they have done for years....DONT dress in Civilian clothing and have a gun in your hand... that identifies you as a combatant....an enemy....you kill your enemy in war

[skydyvr 0]

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Seems to me that both sides are behaving extremely badly, as are their sponsor states.

I don't totally disagree, but there is a huge difference between the two basic positions.

Team One kills civilians as their primary means of conducting warfare. They cheer when enemy civilians die. They systematically target enemy civilians ("as best they can", as some would express it), and get their own killed just as well.

Team Two is also killing civilians, but largely thanks to the fact that they have to deal with the enemy in their own neighborhoods. When this team takes out civilians unnecessarily, they express "deep regret", as was expressed today by Israel.

How can you find moral equivelancy between these two teams?

. . =(_8^(1)

[kallend 1,623]

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Seems to me that both sides are behaving extremely badly, as are their sponsor states.

I don't totally disagree, but there is a huge difference between the two basic positions.

Team One kills civilians as their primary means of conducting warfare. They cheer when enemy civilians die. They systematically target enemy civilians ("as best they can", as some would express it), and get their own killed just as well.

Team Two is also killing civilians, but largely thanks to the fact that they have to deal with the enemy in their own neighborhoods. When this team takes out civilians unnecessarily, they express "deep regret", as was expressed today by Israel.

How can you find moral equivelancy between these two teams?

I doubt the dead civilians can tell the difference either.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skydyvr 0]

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I doubt the dead civilians can tell the difference either.

What's your point, that death is bad? Agreed. But is there moral equivelancy here?

. . =(_8^(1)

[billvon 2,400]

>I call it collective pussy-ism at it's worst, wherever it occurs.

So the American Revolution was pulled off by a bunch of pussies?

[billvon 2,400]

>Cite me an American rebel in the 1700's that fired his weapon
>at the enemy from behind women and children . . .

That was one of the British Army's reasons the rebels were so vile. They fought from their houses, where the women and children were! They didn't stand in lines like the British did, which is how gentlemen fought!

If a force invaded your neighborhood, would you run away from your family first thing to fight in an approved area? Or would you defend your house and family?