Tent City, Arizona - should prison really be this tough?

[beowulf 1]

No I don't think that violent and non violent offenders should get the same treatment. But neither would enjoy any amenities. Basically there would be very little enjoyment in their lives and even less for violent offenders. Rapists and child molesters should be hung by their necks till dead.

[Mike111 0]

I would personally place the society firts in order of protection, but still ensure the victin family were compensated.

Agreed wie must protect society, but if you rehab a guy, society is protected and it is onn less future reoffender - less crimes, 1 less reoffender.

Agreed though yes protetcion comes first, but i wouldn;t view it personally as people feeling good about themselves or view it as experimentation. just my 0.02
Thanks anyway for a polite response

[Mike111 0]

Im not including them in minor cases at all, cewrtainly not and i appreciate you feel strongly about it.

But, i guess it would be fair to sya to have a flexible system - certain methods work on certain people depending on their psyhcology and character.

Brute force for one, encouragement for the other

[beowulf 1]

The biggest problem with rehabilitation is how do you know when someone has been rehabilitated? How do you know they will never go back to their old ways? How many chances do you give someone till you decide they can't be rehabilitated?

[Mike111 0]

The paroll system - they go on paroll and you monitor them.

But yes, it would be foolish to assume immediaetly that the paroll system would solve all problems, and it might be inneffective. But apart from general judgement and that system and similar ones thats the best we have,

Can you think of any others?

[waltappel 1]

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because one stupid error they made can often ruin the rest of their life even if they only go to jail for a year or so.

It's not about that person - their one stupid choice may have ruined someone else's life - and they've shown the potential to ruin another's life, that's why they are in prison - to protect from doing it again.

Consequences are a bitch.

What I haven't seen yet in this discussion is mention that in the US, it is becoming increasingly easier to commit crimes because new laws are being added to the books daily because of knee-jerk reactions to a single incident.

Some feel that prisons should be hell-holes, but should that apply even to non-violent offenders? Even beyond that, there are degrees of severity for non-violent offenses. White collar crime, e.g., the Enron fraud, is non-violent, but there may be thousands who will never be able to retire because of those non-violent offenses. On the other hand, should someone found with a small quantity of narcotics for personal use be given the "hell" sentence?

Walt

[rehmwa 2]

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Agreed wie must protect society, but if you rehab a guy, society is protected and it is onn less future reoffender - less crimes, 1 less reoffender.

As I said - "if rehab works - fine". But it's not the primary goal - it's a (rather arbitrary) attempt/method to meet that goal for a very restricted subpopulation of the total criminal population.

Good luck, but it's an art not a science so we are gambling whenever we say someone is rehabilitated - sometimes the gamble is worth it.

(but, the risk analysis must understand that the subject has been identified as guilty in a fair court, so the risk must, in these cases favor society, not that individual - in essence, 'still guilty' (of potential re-occurence of the crime) until proven innocent. In other words, the alpha and beta risk should be reversed for someone proven guilty before letting them back into society.)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Mike111 0]

Fully agree.

Im hope not going back on myself, and i dont think i am, but i agree with everything in your post.

And yes it is a gamble, but worth a go if it works in some cases.

[lawrocket 3]

Should prison be that tough? It depends on what you think a prison should do.

If prison is supposed to be penal, then sure it should be that tough. Why not? "Ooh, the temperature rises above 100 degrees. It's subhuman living." For some reason, it was no considered subhuman before the 1950s. You know, Americans and immigrants to America should travel around the globe to see other places where air conditioning ain't so readily available - like 90 percent of the damned planet.

I dare you to say that Saharan and equatorial Africa is "subhuman." Or that the majority of Asia is "subhuman." Or South America. Hell, go to Europe, where vast amounts of the population in such places as France, SPain and Italy get by without air conditioning (you try retrofitting an 800 year old stone structure to provide AC venitlation).

Wearing pink panties? That's an outrage, right? An orange jumpsuit is much more dignified. And making prisoners work on chain gangs? I guess that's as subhuman as our field workers and road workers, eh? Why is it subhuman? Is it because these prisoners find it beneath their dignity to actually be working where it might be uncomfortabel.

I should note that this blogger is in the can for activities related to staging raves in the middle of the damned desert! Did he have subhuman, non-air conditioned tents out there for those kids, eh?

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Maybe your idea of prison is that it should separate people from society and let them reflect on their crimes. I guess Club Fed is fine for that. Three square meals a day, showers, health care, and a gymnasium membership. Television works, too, for the idle mind os the devil's ally (can't say that in a public jail, though - separation of church and state).

I'm sure that white collar criminals shouldn't be in chain gangs. They are used to offices and suits and air conditioning. It would be inhuman to have them doing the work that they hired illegals to do, right? After all, prison should not damage their self-esteem any more than is necessary.

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Or maybe you think that prison is for rehabilitation. Well, if prison is for rehab, I think chain gangs and work crews are damned good ideas. First, a productive member of society knows how to work within the rules. Chain gangs do that. Next, a productive member of society should be productive. Giving them a work ethic, a la chain gang, should be good for that. Also, the interests of a society mean that you'll often just have to suck it up and drive on. I require my employees to be well-kempt in appearance. Some people don't like that, but hopefully those guys can realize that it is not like I am making them wear pink underwear. Finally, it requires you to learn when to let things slide and get a job done. These guys will be released back into society with the knowledge that they were able to suck it up through 2 years working on a chain gang, and maybe that lanscaping job isn't so bad.


What's my opinion? Make prison tough and economical. If that prison can turn a profit, then I'll be happy that my tax dollars ar not being wasted.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[beowulf 1]

I couldn't have said it any better.

[sd-slider 0]

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Fuck that. I think prison should be the most miserable fucking place on earth.

What he said!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anvil Brother #69

Sidelined with a 5mm C5-C6 herniated disk...
Back2Back slammers and 40yr old fat guys don't mix!

[akarunway 1]

My beef. I think the majority of city and county jails hold mostly non violent DUI's, minor drug offenders, non child support payers, wife beaters etc. Need to change that program. It's all about money. Last I heard Orange Co. Fl., Disney World land, tourism was the #1 money maker followed by corrections at #2. This includes all the criminal justice system (ie: judges, lawyers, correctional officers, bondsmans, cops, etc. etc.). One beef I have. You lock a guy (or gal) up for non payment of child support, as an example, How the fuck does that help him pay that support. It's all about the money the state gets for each prisoner held on a daily basis. Around a hundred bucks a day I think. Big bucks. State prison? If you get that far and are guilty as charged you get what you deserve. NOW. It's the fucking rich that wanna get richer and fuck millions of trusting people outta their lives savings, ie: Ken Lay's and Co. and all them fuckwads and their cohorts (Bushes come to mind) get is that if they ever see the inside of Club Fed they will be playing golf and tennis and writing a book and getting fatter. They are the ones that need to be hung by the balls along w/ the murderers and rapists and child molesters (M.J or O.J) come to mind? If you have money you walk if you don't you're fucked. . And I've seen the criminal justice system in action from both ends of the spectrum and it ain't pretty. Rant over

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[lawrocket 3]

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You lock a guy (or gal) up for non payment of child support, as an example, How the fuck does that help him pay that support.

It's because non-payment of child support is supposed to be penal.

Also (considering that I also handle child support) the only guys I see getting pinched are those who really dont' pay it hardly at all. Furthermore, out where I work, those guys in jail are paying child support through the county governments. They have a kid or 10, they don't suppor tthe kid, the mom applies for welfare. The county pays the welfare but goes after the father to pay them back all he can afford. Get it?

So, by putting this guy in jail, the children and mother don't lose a dime!!! The county loses the money because hes not working and can't pay it. (Of course, unless the guy gets an order lowering child support, he's building arrears that he has to pay off every day he's in jail not paying it).

So, I think your understanding of the system is a little bit off. But what the hell should they do to guys that don't pay child support? Say, "Hey, pay your child suppor, or we'll tell you to pay it again?"

No. That doesn't work. You incarcerate them to punish them and teach them a lesson that they are serious. Then you let them go after a few days.

Your argument sounds like, "You show a kidnapper that kidnapping is wrong by kidnapping the kidnapper and locking him away." Well, yeah. What else are you gonna do?

My thought is that if you break the law you get punished. I myself have seen the justice system from all angles. Once I learned more about it, it made more sense.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[akarunway 1]

I'd expect no less of an answer from a LAWYER. What about the rest? Wanna defend all the white collar scumbags that take peoples lives savings and get a slap on the rest thanks to YOUR buddy system? And how about THIS senerio? I pay every bill and work my ass off for 9 yrs paying for 1/2 of the kids expenses. Why the fuck do I have to pay the other 8 yrs (1/2)? Why doesn't she have to pay her half? As far as the welfare. That comes outta MY taxes too then I get to pay again. I had an ex get a fuckin restraining order (w/ lies) so I couldn't get into the house to get my half of the shit I paid 100 percent for (w/ a lawyer paid by the state). They sure as fuck wouldn't pay for a lawyer to defend MYSELF. Nothing personal but lawyers are the lowest thing on the planet (lower than whale shit)

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[Gawain 0]

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Tent City, Arizona - should prison really be this tough?

Make it harsher. Make it tougher.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

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Nothing personal but lawyers are the lowest thing on the planet (lower than whale shit)

No they aren’t. But for the involvement of contemporary zealous lawyers we would continue to see the Lena Bakers of our country being given the electric chair by lay people in order to “send a message.”

MAID GETS PARDON 60 YEARS AFTER EXECUTION

August 16, 2005

ALBANY, GEORGIA -- The only woman ever executed in Georgia's electric chair is being granted a posthumous pardon, 60 years after the black maid was put to death for killing a white man she claimed held her in slavery and threatened her life.

The Georgia Board of Pardons and Paroles decided to pardon Lena Baker and plans to present a proclamation to her descendants at its Aug. 30 meeting in Atlanta, board spokeswoman Scheree Lipscomb said Monday.

The board did not find Baker innocent of the crime. It instead found the decision to deny her clemency in 1945 "was a grievous error, as this case called out for mercy," Lipscomb said.

Baker was sentenced to die after a one-day trial before an all-white, all-male jury.

"I believe she's somewhere around God's throne and can look down and smile," said Baker's grandnephew, Roosevelt Curry, who has led the family's effort to clear her name.

During her trial, Baker testified that E.B. Knight, a man she had been hired to care for, held her in a grist mill and threatened to shoot her if she tried to leave. Baker said she grabbed his gun and shot him when he raised a metal bar to strike her.

Copyright © 2005, Chicago Tribune

Source: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0508160152aug16,1,5918882.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed


Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!

[billvon 2,417]

>Nothing personal but lawyers are the lowest thing on the planet
>(lower than whale shit)

Your one warning.

[akarunway 1]

Point taken. I'd still like some more comments on the white collar crime and, well, I won't go there

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[SkyDekker 1,135]

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Nothing personal but lawyers are the lowest thing on the planet
>(lower than whale shit)

Why would that get a warning? He went after a group, not a poster. Comments are made about the french, americans, canadians, muslims etc, many groups get bashed and no warning is given. Why would some one bashing another group (lawyers in this case) get a warning?

[lawrocket 3]

You'd probably be pissed off to know that I've tried to have a couple of deadbeat dads put in jail. It didn't happen, but that's your right.

You'd probably also be pissed off to know that on Friday, I plan on having another deadbeat dad's $35k interest in his house put into a trust as security for future child support. Hell, he's only $8.5k behind right now (I guess it's okay, though. he paid $3k of $11.5k over the last two years.)

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I pay every bill and work my ass off for 9 yrs paying for 1/2 of the kids expenses.

This is admirable.

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Why the fuck do I have to pay the other 8 yrs (1/2)?

If you breed them you better goddamned well feed them. There is a way around it, too. You can go to jail or get seriously injured.

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Wanna defend all the white collar scumbags that take peoples lives savings and get a slap on the rest thanks to YOUR buddy system?

Guys like Bernard Ebbers of WorldCom? Oh, yeah, he just got 25 years in a pound me in the ass federal prison. He'll be released when he's 85 years old.

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I had an ex get a fuckin restraining order

I don't defend restraining orders anymore. Why? Because I see no reason to take someone's money if I can't do any good. I also think it's a disgrace how easy it is to get a restraining order. Here's a hint how that works - no judge wants to see his or her name in the paper as the judge that denied a restraining order to last night's murder victim. So they'll grant them every time the applicant shows up to court. Sad reality, isn't it?

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Nothing personal but lawyers are the lowest thing on the planet (lower than whale shit)

Not all lawyers are scumbuckets. Just 99.5 percent of us. Sen.Blutarsky, Russell Webb and Chuck Brown are notable exceptions. They are gentlemen and scholars and there are damned few of them left.

Me? I'm an asshole. I had to find a career that maximized the income potential of my personality traits. I really wanted to be a corporate executive, considering my worship of Leona Helmsley. But I'm a lousy businessman and couldn't climb the corporate ladder past middle management. Google the "Peter Principle." That was me.

So I chose law. I could have also chosen a life of crime. I probably have enough asshole in me to be a damned good cop, dentist or ice cream truck operator. But I decided that there's more money as a lawyer, and more opportunity to destroy people's lives.

Amazingly, try as i might, I usually fail at my mission of destroying people's lives. On Monday, I got a check in the mail for $894 dollars from a client I had in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. It paid off his outstanding balance after closure of his case. The damned check was enclosed in a "Thank You" card. I guess he was happy that I managed to get him visitation with his kids that he hadn't been allowed to see in 6 years because his putative wife took the kids out here. I guess he thought that a couple of thousand dollars was worth it.

Another note - the kids (all teenagers now) also signed it.

Motherfucker client and kids. Here I was trying to spread hate and discontent and I get another goddamned "thank you." That pisses me off.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go to the gutter for something to eat. Maybe I'll slip and fall and sue the city. God, I hope so. Broken legs rock.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rehmwa 2]

that absolutely slayed me
ROTFLMAO

You know, it you kick a puppy (you know with the big wet brown and OH SO TRUSTING eyes) directly from behind and between the hind legs, he'll rotate through the air with his tongue flapping against the side of his face. It's a thing of beauty.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[livendive 8]

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my 2 cents - who cares about the victim or his family? - they were already victimized and you can't take it back. If they recover or not, the criminal is still a criminal.

This is so missed in the concept of justice - it's not about closure (victims) or rehabilitation (the criminal), it's about protecting the rest of society (potential victims) from repeat offenses by someone proven capable of the act.

Any idea what percentage of our prison population is serving time for drug-related offenses?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[akarunway 1]

WASHINGTON (AP) — America's prison population grew again in 2002 despite a declining crime rate, costing the federal government and states an estimated $40 billion a year at a time of rampant budget shortfalls.
The inmate population in 2002 of more than 2.1 million represented a 2.6% increase over 2001, according to a report released Sunday by the Bureau of Justice Statistics. Preliminary FBI statistics showed a 0.2% drop in overall crime during the same span.

Experts say mandatory sentences, especially for NON VIOLENT drug offenders, are a major reason inmate populations have risen for 30 years. About one of every 143 U.S. residents was in the federal, state or local custody at year's end.

"The nation needs to break the chains of our addiction to prison, and find less costly and more effective policies like treatment," said Will Harrell, executive director of the Texas American Civil Liberties Union. "We need to break the cycle."

Others say tough sentencing laws, such as the "three strikes" laws that can put repeat offenders behind bars for life, are a chief reason for the drop in crime. The Justice Department, for example, this year ordered Bureau of Prisons officials to stop sending so many white-collar and nonviolent criminals to halfway houses.

"The prospect of prison, more than any other sanction, is feared by white-collar criminals and has a powerful deterrent effect," Deputy Attorney General Larry Thompson said in a memo announcing the change.

Yet the cost of housing, feeding and caring for a prison inmate is roughly $20,000 per year, or about $40 billion nationwide using 2002 figures, according to The Sentencing Project, a nonprofit organization that promotes alternatives to prison. Construction costs are about $100,000 per cell.

Even as these costs keeping climbing, the federal government is tackling a giant budget deficit and 31 states this year are cutting spending — most often across all programs — to deal with shortfalls, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures.

"The prison population and budget figures, taken together, should be setting off alarm bells in state capitols," said Jason Zeidenberg, director of policy and research for the Justice Policy Institute, a nonprofit organization focused on ending reliance on incarceration.

Drug offenders now make up more than half of all federal prisoners. The federal penal system, which has tough sentencing policies for drug offenses, is now the nation's largest at more than 151,600 — an increase of 4.2% compared with 2001.

Over the same period, state prison and jail populations grew just 2.4%. Prison alternative advocates credit moves in some states to divert drug offenders to treatment programs and other innovations for that lower growth rate.

Texas, for example, recently passed a drug treatment alternative law and saw its prison population remain virtually unchanged from 2001 to 2002. Ohio, which revised its sentencing and parole guidelines in the late 1990s, had its prison and jail population rise just 0.8% last year compared with 1.9% for the Midwest as a whole.

"The way to reduce prison spending is to reduce the number of people in prison and the number of prisons, like some states across the country have done," said Rose Braz, director of Critical Resistance, a California-based group opposed to prison expansion.

At the same time, the Justice Department report found that 17 states reported increases of at least 5% year-to-year in their prison populations, with Maine's increasing by 11.5% and Rhode Island's rising 8.6%. The federal prisons and almost all state corrections systems are over their capacities, with 71,000 offenders serving their state or federal sentences in local jails.

Other key points in the report:

• As of last Dec. 31, there were 97,491 women in state or federal prisons, or about 6.8% of all inmates and one in every 1,656 women. There were over 1.3 million male inmates, or about one in 110 men.

• About 10% of all black men between 25 and 29 were incarcerated last year, compared with 1.2% of white men and 2.4% of Hispanic men. Overall, the 586,700 black men in prison outnumbered both the 436,800 white males and 235,000 Hispanic males. Black males account for about 45% of all inmates serving a sentence longer than a year.

• Privately operated prisons held 93,771 inmates, about 5.8% of state prisoners and 12.4% of those in federal jurisdictions.

• At year's end 2002, the federal government held 8,748 people at immigration detention facilities, 2,377 at military jails and 16,206 in U.S. territorial prisons. Edit to add: These are old stats. Sorry.I was in a hurry. I worked 18 hrs today to provide electricity for the USA. and pay off my ex cunts. And lawyers still suck. Ban me if you want. I was getting bored w/ DZ.com anyway

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[1888 0]

Tent City is mostly there for economic reasons. Sheriff Joe Aprio who is a retired DEA Agent and a hard ass and is continually re-elected by the votors, can't get $ for a new jail, hence, the tents. To his critics he says that if our troops in Bush's recent war can live in them in extreme heat, it's ok for the scumbags and other criminals who populate his city. They do have tv but the channels are only Disney, cooking shows and the like. They also have job training, picking up trash on the highways around Phoenix and they volunteer for it. Gives them good background to apply for highway crew jobs when they get out. They also get two squares a day, one of which is out of date green balogna.

Sounds like a plan to me.