kelpdiver 2 #176 July 18, 2005 Quote It's kind of ironic that these days when the KKK has a march, the counter-demonstrators seem to be a lot more prone to violence. Walt Have the counter demonstrators lynched anyone yet? No? Ok, go away now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #177 July 18, 2005 QuoteOk if the us gov't came up with a national Id card, you lefties would have a fit. no id card, no work, no DL, no free health care, no bank account, nada. Papers, Comrade. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #178 July 18, 2005 QuoteQuote It's kind of ironic that these days when the KKK has a march, the counter-demonstrators seem to be a lot more prone to violence. Walt Have the counter demonstrators lynched anyone yet? No? Ok, go away now. So violence committed by people who have been dead for a long time justifies violence against people today just because you find their message offensive? Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckbrown 0 #179 July 18, 2005 QuoteYours is an often used but inaccurate argument. I addressed it in my original post. The funny thing about Americans is that they always figure out how to produce more with less. American farmers have steadily increased production year over year for hundreds of years by using hard work, wit, technology, whatever it took. You argument falls apart when a guy can make $100k a year mowing lawns in Las Vegas. Vegas you say? Isn't that illegal immigrant central? Base on your argument shouldn't you be able to stay in hotels for $10 a night, get meals in restaurants for $1 and get your lawn mowed for $5 if what you say about the "need' for illegal mexican labor is true? The fact is that educated, motivated, and innovative American workers will always be able to come up with ways to do things better and for less costs. Using cheap illegal labor is just stifles our economy from growing faster and becoming more efficient. Our economy is #1 because we have moved forward into more knowledge based work, and industrial based work for the previous 100 years. The US didn't get to where it is by using 1000 of uneducated workers to do a task that someone could figure out how to do better, faster, and cheaper with new equipment & technology. Illegal immigrant labor is a crutch and one that could easily put us behind our economic rivals in that not too distant future. Thought you might find this interesting..... __________________________________________________ From the Wall Street Journal. More Immigrants, More Jobs Keeping America's door open has kept America's economy booming. BY STEPHEN MOORE Sunday, July 17, 2005 12:01 a.m. EDT The latest U.S. Census Bureau data confirm that America is in the midst of one of the most dramatic demographic transformations in our nation's history. Driving this transformation is what has been called the "fourth great wave" of immigration to these shores. The first wave came from Western Europe during the nation's founding. The second wave arrived in the middle of the 19th century when the U.S. first began to industrialize. The third wave was the great Ellis Island influx in the first two decades of the 20th century, when nearly one million immigrants arrived each year--from every corner of Europe. Those earlier immigrant groups generally prospered here and were instrumental in the building of America's economic might. How about this latest fourth wave? Since 1980 about 20 million immigrants have come, with about three of four arriving from Asia and Central America. Over the past quarter-century the percentage of the U.S. population that is foreign born has about doubled from 6.2% in 1980 to 12% today--which means that about one in eight of us is an American by choice, not by birth. This large influx of new Americans has intensified calls inside and outside of Congress for closing the Golden Gates. Groups ranging from the Federation for American Immigration Reform to National Review magazine have gained political traction by arguing that we need a "time out" on immigrants because they displace American workers from jobs, depress wages and raise welfare and other social service costs. Yet the evidence for these claims is contradicted by the actual bullish U.S. economic performance during this era of high immigration. One can only marvel at how over the past 20 years the U.S. free-market system has absorbed millions of new immigrants into the economy and labor force almost seamlessly. The 1980s and '90s were two of the fastest economic growth decades in American history, in overall and per capita GDP growth, at the very time when immigration was peaking. Financial and housing assets in the U.S. have more than quadrupled in real terms since the early 1980s, making the past 20 years the most rapid period of wealth creation in American history. Immigrants may not have caused this burst of prosperity, but they certainly didn't prevent it. Have low-waged workers, blacks or Hispanics been harmed by the immigrant influx? There is scant evidence to support that thesis. As the nearby chart shows, the increase in the immigration flow has corresponded with steady and substantial reductions in unemployment from 7.3% to 5.1% over the past two decades. And the unemployment rates have fallen by 6 percentage points for blacks and 3.5 percentage points for Latinos. Since 1980 the U.S. has taken in more than twice the number of immigrants of any other industrialized nation, yet we have the second lowest unemployment rate. Renowned labor economist Richard Vedder of Ohio University has shown, moreover, that the states with the highest levels of immigration have generally had the lowest, not the highest unemployment rates. George Borjas of Harvard University has claimed that immigrants contribute to the widening income gap between the rich and poor in America. But not only has median real family income in the U.S. risen by 21% since the early 1980s to $52,000 today, but incomes even rose for Americans in the bottom 20% over the 1980-2000 period. This is not to deny that immigrants compete with American workers in some industries and in localized labor markets. Portuguese fishermen, African cab drivers, Chinese textile workers, and Mexican field hands, for example, often do displace American workers and push wages downward. On a macro-level, however, there is no evidence of wage suppression by immigrants, because natives have generally migrated into other professions with higher wages. Even more encouraging news comes from recent Census Bureau data on the economic advancement of immigrants themselves. The longer that immigrants are here, the better they do financially. For example, immigrants who have been in the U.S. for less than three years have a 7.4% unemployment rate. That rate of joblessness falls to 6.7% after 10 years here, then below 6% after 20 years. The income numbers show the same picture of immigrants climbing the ladder of economic success. New arrivals have a median family income of $31,930. For those who came in the 1990s there incomes average $38,395. And for those who have been here 20 years or more, family income approaches $50,000. Immigrants are economic investments with increasing rates of return over time. In recent years, immigrants have tended to be disproportionately represented in the highest and the lowest skills and education categories. We attract world class mathematicians and busboys. Not surprisingly, the highly educated and skilled immigrants tend to be far more economically valuable than the unskilled. In a global economy where the resource that is most scarce is human capital, our ability to attract the best and the brightest scientists, engineers and entrepreneurs is unquestionably one of the nation's greatest comparative advantages. Silicon Valley could not exist today without immigrant brainpower. One of the most obvious malfunctions of our current immigration policy is that we deny work visas to tens of thousands of highly trained and educated foreign graduate students who have enormous upside economic potential. For those of us who believe that the melting pot is a vital and unique feature of American society, this finding that the new immigrants are integrating into our modern economy is highly reassuring. Even more encouraging is the knowledge that a generous immigration policy can coexist with high rates of economic growth and low unemployment. The nativists have gotten this story all wrong for at least the past 20 years; perhaps it would be wise to stop listening to them. Mr. Moore is a member of The Wall Street Journal's editorial board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #180 July 18, 2005 Biased report! I'm not buying it. The one's flooding across the Southwest border are not all, PhD's! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #181 July 18, 2005 QuoteBiased report! I'm not buying it. The one's flooding across the Southwest border are not all, PhD's! Chuck I agree. Government-released economic statistics are politically biased for obvious reasons. Anyone making claims on the basis of those statistics is on very weak footing. A prime example is the unemployment statistics. Let's say that someone collects unemployment and is unable to find a job before it runs out. Guess What? Once the unemployment benefits run out the person is no longer considered unemployed, regardless of whether they have found a job! Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,463 #182 July 18, 2005 >China has been doing a pretty damn good job stopping N. Koreans >coming across their border havent' they!!!! I think you might want to take a look at a map and compare the size of the size of the North Korea/China border and the US/Mexican border. In addition, they don't have much in the way of compunctions about shooting anyone they find near the border, Chinese or Korean. I'd be dead at least three times over if they went to such extremes here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #183 July 18, 2005 Quote So violence committed by people who have been dead for a long time justifies violence against people today just because you find their message offensive? Walt Just maintaining a vague semblance of perspective. Saddam Hussein behaved himself, relatively speaking, in the last few years. Does that erase all the shit he did before? Likewise, the KKK is a terrorist organization with a long history of killing. A few punches and shoves by others doesn't even enter the ballpark. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #184 July 18, 2005 QuoteQuote So violence committed by people who have been dead for a long time justifies violence against people today just because you find their message offensive? Walt Just maintaining a vague semblance of perspective. Saddam Hussein behaved himself, relatively speaking, in the last few years. Does that erase all the shit he did before? Likewise, the KKK is a terrorist organization with a long history of killing. A few punches and shoves by others doesn't even enter the ballpark. I understand what you are saying and even agree with it, but in the case of the KKK and lynchings, you are comparing an organization whose members that committed those acts are no longer alive, to a man who is still very much alive. I'm not saying that I think the Klan is a bunch of great guys--I don't think they are--but they do have the rights to peaceful assembly and freedom of speech. I think it is quite ironic when people who condemn the Klan because the Klan's intolerance, show themselves to be violently intolerant. By your reasoning, it would be ok to assault black people because of actions committed during the Rodney King riots. Remember that white truck driver who was dragged out of his truck and nearly beaten to death by some blacks? It's pretty clear to me that it would be ridiculous to retaliate by assaulting people who happen to have the same skin color as those violent thugs. It is also clear to me that it is NOT ok for people to assault others because they disagree with their politics and have very strong feelings about the history of their organization. That being said, the KKK has a history of really pushing the limits of the First Amendment and I can't say that I feel a lot of sympathy for any of them when things go wrong at their demonstrations. Regardless of how I feel about their politics, though, they are exercising their rights as American citizens and anyone who interferes with that by physically attacking them is a violent criminal and should be dealth with accordingly. And no, I'm not suggesting lynching! Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #185 July 18, 2005 Quote I understand what you are saying and even agree with it, but in the case of the KKK and lynchings, you are comparing an organization whose members that committed those acts are no longer alive, to a man who is still very much alive. Says who they're all dead? They just convicted the man they believe was the murderer for the Mississippi killings in the 50s. And there are still nazis alive from WWII. Personally, I think you have good reason to worry about such groups for at least one generation beyond the killers, as those who lived in their presence are greatly affected. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #186 July 19, 2005 Quote Says who they're all dead? They just convicted the man they believe was the murderer for the Mississippi killings in the 50s. And there are still nazis alive from WWII. Ok, all but one. Isn't he 80+ years old anyway? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #187 July 19, 2005 read the second paragraph. Doesn't just apply to politics either. Say we try to reform wingloading policies in our sport. If the current jumpers don't lead by example, everyone will continue to know that the cool jumpers ignore that shit. Won't get better till the second gen comes along. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflajankie 0 #188 July 20, 2005 I think it's funny that it's so easy to be called a racist... If you move to another country for what ever reason. If it's for love, for work, for asylum for ANYTHING. You better take the time to learn the language. Stick to the rules and regulations. Get a Job, don't be a burden, and pay your taxes... If you can't stick to those simple things then move back home to where ever you came from. It doesn't matter if you are white, black or red or even purple... It's about respecting other peoples rules. This has nothing to do about racism. And I also believe that if you move somewhere and you do a crime. Then your ass should be sent home. We spend sooo much money on people in jail and prison that is not even from this country. 1 strike and you are out!!! Just my little opinion!Skydivers are a bunch of insensitive jerks... And that's why I don't skydive anymore! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,672 #189 July 20, 2005 QuoteI think it's funny that it's so easy to be called a racist... If you move to another country for what ever reason. If it's for love, for work, for asylum for ANYTHING. You better take the time to learn the language. Stick to the rules and regulations. ! So which native American language do you speak? Sioux? Seminole? Which tribal laws are you following?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflajankie 0 #190 July 20, 2005 QuoteSo which native American language do you speak? Sioux? Seminole? Which tribal laws are you following? I moved here 2 years ago. So I speak the American that is spoken now. I cannot be hold liable to what the people did hundreds of years ago. I speak the language that is spoken now, I follow the laws that are now. I pay the taxes that apply to me now. If Sioux where spoken here now I would learn it... learn it...Skydivers are a bunch of insensitive jerks... And that's why I don't skydive anymore! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casurf1978 0 #191 July 20, 2005 QuoteAnd I also believe that if you move somewhere and you do a crime. Then your ass should be sent home. We spend sooo much money on people in jail and prison that is not even from this country. 1 strike and you are out!!! So an illegal from any 3rd world nation could come here rob a a bank, kill a few cops and civilians and all you would do is send them home. How could we be sure that his country actually enforced some sort of justice on him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,463 #192 July 20, 2005 >If Sioux where spoken here now I would learn it... learn it... If you moved to a US community where Spanish was the primary language spoken, which language would you learn? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #193 July 20, 2005 Quote>If Sioux where spoken here now I would learn it... learn it... If you moved to a US community where Spanish was the primary language spoken, which language would you learn? If you want to get along, you learn Spanish, it's a matter of respect. That there are communities in the US where another language is primary is a different issue. But it is the same on a larger scale in terms of respect for the larger 'community' and indicates the level of willingness to join the melting pot versus being separate but partaking. Why is this a one sided issue? It goes both way and the goal is 'mutual' respect. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #194 July 21, 2005 QuoteQuoteI think it's funny that it's so easy to be called a racist... If you move to another country for what ever reason. If it's for love, for work, for asylum for ANYTHING. You better take the time to learn the language. Stick to the rules and regulations. ! So which native American language do you speak? Sioux? Seminole? Which tribal laws are you following? ________________________________ The only place those languages are spoken is on the reservations. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,672 #195 July 21, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteI think it's funny that it's so easy to be called a racist... If you move to another country for what ever reason. If it's for love, for work, for asylum for ANYTHING. You better take the time to learn the language. Stick to the rules and regulations. ! So which native American language do you speak? Sioux? Seminole? Which tribal laws are you following? ________________________________ The only place those languages are spoken is on the reservations. Chuck Were there reservations when the Pilgrims arrived? I think not. The nation that you are so anxious to protect from intruders was founded by intruders who decimated the indigenous population and its cutures. I find this entire line of argument hypocritical.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #196 July 21, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI think it's funny that it's so easy to be called a racist... If you move to another country for what ever reason. If it's for love, for work, for asylum for ANYTHING. You better take the time to learn the language. Stick to the rules and regulations. ! So which native American language do you speak? Sioux? Seminole? Which tribal laws are you following? ________________________________ The only place those languages are spoken is on the reservations. Chuck Were there reservations when the Pilgrims arrived? I think not. The nation that you are so anxious to protect from intruders was founded by intruders who decimated the indigenous population and its cutures. I find this entire line of argument hypocritical. ___________________________________ From what you say, we are all intruders. Well, I don't see it that way. Our fore-fathers were the intruders, I guess. I was born here and I didn't have anything to do with it. What happened with the first settlers and those involved in 'manifest destiny', has nothing to do with me. That was then... this is now. Possibly, you could contact the BIA and see what you can do to right the wrong done to indiginous people. Don't get me wrong, I understand what you are saying and understand the situation with indiginous people. There's not a whole helluva lot I or you can do about it now. That all happened over 125-yrs. ago. What we need to focus on is what we can do about the here and now. Chuck Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #197 July 21, 2005 QuoteWere there reservations when the Pilgrims arrived? I think not. .... I find this entire line of argument hypocritical. Hypocritical when the argument is presented by a Pilgrim surviver from that time. I expect Masterrig is old, but really, that old? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #198 July 21, 2005 QuoteQuoteWere there reservations when the Pilgrims arrived? I think not. .... I find this entire line of argument hypocritical. Hypocritical when the argument is presented by a Pilgrim surviver from that time. I expect Masterrig is old, but really, that old? __________________________________ Wait a minute! What are you trying to say here! You're right, I'm old but, not THAT old! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #199 July 21, 2005 QuoteWait a minute! What are you trying to say here! You'r3 right, I'm old but, not THAT old! Pretty typical for John to call people hypocrits based on something done by people hundreds of years ago. Personally, I hold people accountable by their personal actions, not by their ancestors, or by people their color or religion from centuries ago. I'm funny that way. I know it's not PC, but it makes more sense. With that reasoning, I wonder who the american indians displaced in the Americas even farther back. How do we handle that? How far back do we go before we say, "OK, this date equal original owners"? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #200 July 21, 2005 QuoteQuoteWait a minute! What are you trying to say here! You'r3 right, I'm old but, not THAT old! Pretty typical for John to call people hypocrits based on something done by people hundreds of years ago. Personally, I hold people accountable by their personal actions, not by their ancestors, or by people their color or religion from centuries ago. I'm funny that way. I know it's not PC, but it makes more sense. With that reasoning, I wonder who the american indians displaced in the Americas even farther back. How do we handle that? How far back do we go before we say, "OK, this date equal original owners"? _________________________________ I have to agree with you. Do we have to be held accountable for something our ancestors did? I'm not buying that theory that 'we' are responsible for what happened to Native Americans. If, I had a magic wand and could make it all better... you damned right. I don't and can't. I don't go for that 'sins of the father' bullshit, anyhow. Besides, this thread is about illegal immigration. I honestly believe, the Native Americans would rather we leave them alone. We've 'helped' them enough. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
