Western Culture and Woman.

[Darius11 12]

Western Culture and Woman.

I have heard many put down the Muslim culture, and many who seem to think they know what it is.
I can’t speak for all Muslims but I can speak for what I have seen with my own eyes.

The reason Islam has a dress code for woman and men (yes men also have a dress code) is simple.
We should be judged by who we are not are boobies or biceps. Especially in public and work environments.
Islam also wants to suppress feelings of lust.
Offcourse this has evolved since 1400 years ago.

What I can tell you is we in the USA and European countries do a lot more damage to woman then a Vail ever can.
How many times have you seen a woman objectified on TV, radio, or in a magazine?
I have seen girls in bikinis and half naked for things such as brake pads for a motorcycle. I am sure you can think of many more. So are we so much better or are we worst?
We have degraded woman in this country to a point of no return. Free altitude any one?
I find it amusing to hear how so many on these forums think the woman in this country have it so much better. Again I can only speak for Iran unlike others here I don’t assume to know how every one in other countries feel.
I am even sure there are woman in Iran who might disagree with this post and all they ever dream about is being in a wet T shirt contest. I know many here sometimes including my self like to pick things threw with a fine toothcomb. This is not one of those posts I know this is a generalization and there are many exceptions. So with that being said here are a few things I have noticed.
In my time in Iran witch is half of my life I have not seen any of my friends, acquaintances, people I know (except the ones who grew up in the US or Europe) call there moms, wives, sister, or any other Females bitchs. I see it here every day.
Out of the people I know well very well I know of non-who has EVER hit a woman (maybe their sister when they were younger)
Unfortunately I know of a few here whom simply say, “if the bicth hits me I will hit her back” and they have.
I could go on forever but you get my point. Before you sit there and judge take a good look at your self.
How many of you have been to strip clubs? Yea they’re fun right. I wouldn’t know never been to one. Do you think the woman if they had a choice of making the same money would like drunken guys shoving money down there panties? Maybe some would maybe be none would.
The point of this post is simple. OPEN YOU EYES. If you are really upset at the way woman are treated fix your self first before you move on to others. If you think something in a culture you don’t understand or never been a part of is stupid it’s probably not the culture it’s your lake of understanding.

Sorry for the long post
Flame away.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[wmw999 2,147]

No flames here.

I can understand the desire to be such that I'm considered for my ideas. It pisses me off that in some areas that takes being swathed in cloth from head to foot.

The girls down the street wear scarves to school and other places. Not at home, not when in their yard, because they know the folks then.

When a girl with a head scarf came to the DZ to do a tandem, she simply took it off when it was her time to jump. After all, it would get in the way. It's a tool for some folks, not a prison.

But some people do impose it like a prison, too. And that's just as wrong.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 2,427]

>But some people do impose it like a prison, too. And that's just as wrong.

Is it as wrong that we imprison women who refuse to cover their breasts, while we let men do it?

[TomAiello 25]

I think the major issue is personal choice.

If a woman chooses to dress however, that's her own choice.

When government starts getting involved and arresting women for dressing however, that's no longer a personal choice.

Very large difference, to me.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[falxori 0]

you compare women in Iran that have to dress modest to women in the US that can go on a wet Tshirt contest or be a stripper, if they chose to.

its all about setting your own borders.
thats why i dont like for example the new laws in france that say what you can and can not wear.

and another point, i dont think its islamic specific, the same exist in all religions. the difference is the form of government (religious based or not)

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Frenchy68 0]

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thats why i dont like for example the new laws in france that say what you can and can not wear

thats why i dont like for example the new laws in france that say what you can and can not wear.
That's more like it.
As Bill Von mentioned earlier, a woman can not go topless on a beach in the US. She can in France.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[falxori 0]

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As Bill Von mentioned earlier, a woman can not go topless on a beach in the US. She can in France.

yeap, thats why my ex was french and not american

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[kelpdiver 2]

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The reason Islam has a dress code for woman and men (yes men also have a dress code) is simple.
We should be judged by who we are not are boobies or biceps. Especially in public and work environments.
Islam also wants to suppress feelings of lust.
Offcourse this has evolved since 1400 years ago.

The problem, in my eyes, is that the dress code for women is to keep them unseen. So in order to solve the problem of men not controlling their lust, women not only need to be quiet, but invisible. Are they any less objects when you make them all look the same? It also makes it easier in more severe forms (say the Taliban) to preclude them from education, from driving cars, etc. A lousy form of separate but equal.

Is it better that women have the right to "degrade" themselves in America? I think so - they have the choice. Hell, if I could make 70-100k/yr with no education, dancing on tables, I'd do it too!

[Nightingale 0]

I don't have a problem with women choosing to cover themselves. I do have a problem with their government, their husbands, or their fathers forcing them to. I have a big problem with those above mentioned parties forcing them to wear clothing that interferes with movement and vision (burka).

I understand the intent behind the muslim dress code. It's just that too many people use that code to repress rather than to empower.

[beowulf 1]

Check the Gay bars it might work for you ya never know.

at least you have the right to choose

[Darius11 12]

So in order to solve the problem of men not controlling their lust, women not only need to be quiet, but invisible.***

Actually it is about both men and woman controlling there lust. That’s why men do not ware cloths that would reveal their biceps, or tight jeans. I don't remember mentioning woman being invisible so I don't know where that is coming from.

Again no disagreement that the Taliban were bad. As I said in my post I only speak of what I have seen in my own life and experiences.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[EricTheRed 0]

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thats why i dont like for example the new laws in france that say what you can and can not wear

thats why i dont like for example the new laws in france that say what you can and can not wear.
That's more like it.
As Bill Von mentioned earlier, a woman can not go topless on a beach in the US. She can in France.

Actually, in Oregon, our state constitution has been interpreted as allowing women to go topless anywhere that men can. (provided the display is not intended to be arousing)

Of course, due to the generally shitty weather, we don't have nearly enough topless women here either...

illegible usually

[Darius11 12]

It's just that too many people use that code to repress rather than to empower.

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Do you have a number of how many women want the Islamic dress code and how many don't?
I have a feeling you are looking at it from your point of view, and unless you are Muslim, and were brought up in a Muslim culture your view is not the same.

During the Reza Shah era he actually band chadors a form of Hajob (Islamic cover) Many woman fought the soldiers to keep the chadors. No one made them fight. They fought because they wanted to.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

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[SkyDekker 1,141]

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Do you have a number of how many women want the Islamic dress code and how many don't?
I have a feeling you are looking at it from your point of view, and unless you are Muslim, and were brought up in a Muslim culture your view is not the same.

I think many, if not all of us, tend to think that our way of life is better than other's way of life. it behooves us all to sometimes stand still and try and remember that not everybody wants be like us.

[Darius11 12]

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I think many, if not all of us, tend to think that our way of life is better than other's way of life. it behooves us all to sometimes stand still and try and remember that not everybody wants be like us

So very true

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[beowulf 1]

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It's just that too many people use that code to repress rather than to empower.

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Do you have a number of how many women want the Islamic dress code and how many don't?
I have a feeling you are looking at it from your point of view, and unless you are Muslim, and were brought up in a Muslim culture your view is not the same.

During the Reza Shah era he actually band chadors a form of Hajob (Islamic cover) Many woman fought the soldiers to keep the chadors. No one made them fight. They fought because they wanted to.

There is nothing here in the US stoping any woman from dressing in the Islamic dress code. All women are free to follow the Islamic code of dress and ethics if they so wish to. I don't understand why you have a problem with people choosing not to.

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[Nightingale 0]

I'm sure there are many women who choose to weir a veil. However, I'm also sure that there are women who have no choice.

It's stuff like this that I have a problem with.

If it's truly a choice, women would face no consequences should they choose not to wear a veil.

[kelpdiver 2]

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So in order to solve the problem of men not controlling their lust, women not only need to be quiet, but invisible.***

Actually it is about both men and woman controlling there lust. That’s why men do not ware cloths that would reveal their biceps, or tight jeans. I don't remember mentioning woman being invisible so I don't know where that is coming from.

To me, if you force a woman to dress such that you seen nothing but her eyes, she is functionally invisible. And indistinguishable from any other woman. You'll find few in America who are for that sort of deindividualization.

[billvon 2,427]

>You'll find few in America who are for that sort of deindividualization.

Now that's funny!

Dyeing your hair, having your boobs/nose changed, getting liposuction etc so you look just like Britney Spears is about as deindividualizing as you can get - and is remarkably popular. Just walk down the street in LA. We are a world leader in mass conformity.

[Darius11 12]

This is not just to Beowulf but to every one.


I am sorry if this was not clear in my post.

I am not telling any one to dress in any way. I have no problem with any one dressing any way they want. I am all for choice.

As I said in the post there are many on these forums that sit and judge how abusive the Islamic culture is, but they don’t see the problems with there own culture. I don’t think it is possible for any one who did not grow in a certain culture to understand it, and what is different does not necessarily mean abusive.

I will say again so I can make sure this point is not missed.
Choice is great, but don’t assume that all Muslim woman are just itching to be like western woman.
I know many that don’t.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[christelsabine 1]

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It's stuff like this that I have a problem with.

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I do understand you. But: What will you, as a single person, do to change a complete culture with all his consequences? You cannot.

And furthermore: It is not "your" job, it is nobody elses job. Leave them alone. Impossible to transfer your way of (American) life to another culture.

Smallest possible example:
When I'm somewhere in South Europe, f. e. Italy, I really do enjoy to sit all night long with all neighbours in front of the house, to drink wine, little kids running around us.
In my hometown: I just would get weird looks, nobody would sit outside with me in front of my house (except perhaps in a garden party), everybody is going to lock its door, no night life with neighbours.

Even here we cannot transfer other life styles. How do you think it could be done with so different cultures?

Leave them alone (I do not mean you as a person). I feel sure, they do not want anyone else to change their lifes. And if they want to change, they will be able to do it by themselves, I am sure.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

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[justinb138 0]

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I will say again so I can make sure this point is not missed.
Choice is great, but don’t assume that all Muslim woman are just itching to be like western woman.
I know many that don’t.

I don't think anyone assumed that they did. But if they don't have a choice (and I'm not saying that they don't) how would anyone ever know?

[Darius11 12]

There is many ways to force someone.
Culture pursuer is one of them.
Do you really think if there was no pressure people would endure hours of surgery so they can fit the mold of what is sexy today?


Just so you know the ghabo(the black thing that covers the womans face) is not what you see in Iran.
The Koran asks that you cover your arms, legs and hair. It asks that you dress modestly, much like Judaism, and Christianity.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[kelpdiver 2]

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>You'll find few in America who are for that sort of deindividualization.

Now that's funny!

Dyeing your hair, having your boobs/nose changed, getting liposuction etc so you look just like Britney Spears is about as deindividualizing as you can get - and is remarkably popular. Just walk down the street in LA. We are a world leader in mass conformity.

I'd find that more valid if there were a single standard, and no choices on the matter. But that isn't how it is. My sister dyed her hair so many times I have no idea what the original color is. And while common, I doubt more than 5-10% of women in LA have had their rack upsized.

You have a lot of fad looks in LA. The only place I thought was a bit creepy was Salt Lake City. Two Mormon looks - before and after marriage.

I think Darius is right - if choice were suddenly available, many Islamic women would choose to stick to the established norms. I suspect that over time that would become less common, and they would be labeled as "orthodox."

[Frenchy68 0]

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The Koran asks that you cover your arms, legs and hair. It asks that you dress modestly, much like Judaism, and Christianity.

Does it say anything about making brownies and taking them to the nearby stud?

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."