crozby 0 #201 February 3, 2005 QuoteThank you for reading and trying to understand my point of view. And thank you for starting such an entertaining thread - over 200 replies, you must be pleased. I'm curious, if you could change the gun control laws of the UK, what would you do? Would you have an owners register? What kind of system would you want to introduce? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #202 February 3, 2005 QuoteGood point JR, I mean the sniper in Washington could have bought the city to a standstill and killed all those people at random by running up to them and beating them to death with sticks couldn't he. Yep. Jack the Ripper did not have a gun. Dahmer never used a gun. Albert Fish...Read up on that nut case....WOW! Never used a gun. John Wayne Gacey never used a gun.. Hillside Stranglers....no guns."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #203 February 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteDo you believe that someone who wants to commit murder will be prevented from doing so by the simple absence of a readily available gun? Good point JR, I mean the sniper in Washington could have bought the city to a standstill and killed all those people at random by running up to them and beating them to death with sticks couldn't he. Three words: "Jack the Ripper" For school murders, the record was in Bath, Michigan, in 1927, when 44 were killed. Not with guns, but with dynamite. The biggest mass murder in the U.S. used to be the Happyland Club, New York City, where 90 people died. Done not with guns, but with gasoline. Then there is the Oklahoma City bombing with 168 dead. Done not with guns, but with fertilizer and diesel fuel. Yeah, banning guns will stop mass murder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #204 February 3, 2005 Quotei'm not gonna live my life looking over my shoulder 24/7 and sleeping with a gun under my pillow just in case some nutcase comes into my house... I refuse to live my life in a state of permanent fear and paranoia... Just because one owns a gun for self defense, does not mean that they live in fear of being attacked. Just because one wears a seat belt while driving, does not mean that they live in fear of being involved in an auto accident. Just because one keeps a fire extinguisher in their home, does not mean that they live in fear of having their house burn down. Just because one has medical insurance, does not mean that they live in fear of becoming sick. Just because one skydives with a parachute rig containing a reserve parachute, does not mean that they live in fear of having a main parachute malfunction. It's simply called; "being prepared". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #205 February 3, 2005 QuoteOn two occasions in the last 20 years, two otherwise law abiding individuals committed more than one third of firearms murders for that year with firearms they held legally. A whole third! Guess we took the guns away from the class of person who did do it. Yep, you punished everyone for the actions of two. That's a great model of freedom upon which to operate a nation. Hey, you could try this philosophy out at the drop zone. The next time someone gets grounded for doing something unsafe, ground everyone on the DZ for the remainder of the weekend. That'll teach him! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropoutdave 0 #206 February 3, 2005 QuoteJust because one wears a seat belt while driving, does not mean that they live in fear of being involved in an auto accident. But how you don't see people posting statistics on how likely you are to be in a fatal accident and how we should all take better measures to ensure our safety do you? We accept the risk of driving and get on with it which is IMO stupid considering 2 people die every minute from car accidents! Puts this whole gun argument into perspective a bit i think. QuoteJust because one keeps a fire extinguisher in their home, does not mean that they live in fear of having their house burn down. Likewise with this, I don't see people posting statistics on this to say we should be better prepared in case of a house fire. We know the risks and get on with it. QuoteJust because one has medical insurance, does not mean that they live in fear of becoming sick. Same again. It's not always as black and white as you seem to like to make it. There's being prepared and there's being paranoid. Considering the chances of some maniac entering our homes wanting to kill us all I think there's a bit more to it than just 'being prepared' when it comes to guns. Your more likely to die of many more things than some psycho attacking you, people should campaign about those instead and put their energies to better use. Out of curiosity, how many innocent people die every minute from people entering their homes and murdering them or from people being attacked on the streets. Not talking about gang/drug related murders here. I may be wrong but I would hasten a guess that it's less than 2 a minute? Peace ------------------------------------------------------ May Contain Nut traces...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfc 0 #207 February 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteOn two occasions in the last 20 years, two otherwise law abiding individuals committed more than one third of firearms murders for that year with firearms they held legally. A whole third! Guess we took the guns away from the class of person who did do it. Yep, you punished everyone for the actions of two. I lived in England when the handgun ban was introduced, I did not get punished. The law is intended to protect not punish, you should go and read it. Quote That's a great model of freedom upon which to operate a nation. There are many laws that are enacted for the greater good of the people. Take speed limits for instance or weapon controls on aeroplanes. If a few individuals loose their right to own a handgun and the result is that we prevent mass murders using legally held weapons like Hungerford and Dunblane then I can live with that. Why can't you? Quote Hey, you could try this philosophy out at the drop zone. The next time someone gets grounded for doing something unsafe, ground everyone on the DZ for the remainder of the weekend. That'll teach him! This is a poor analogy, a better one would be, several people kill/injure themselves jumping high performance canopies without low experience so you impose a wing load restriction based on jump numbers. No-one is being punished, just being prevented from doing something that is known to be dangerous. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,123 #208 February 3, 2005 QuoteJust because one owns a gun for self defense, does not mean that they live in fear of being attacked. Wouldn't you by definition have that fear? If you had no fear of being attacked, then you would not buy a gun for self defence. QuoteJust because one keeps a fire extinguisher in their home, does not mean that they live in fear of having their house burn down. If you did not fear your house burning down, why would you get the fire extuingisher? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #209 February 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteJust because one wears a seat belt while driving, does not mean that they live in fear of being involved in an auto accident. But how you don't see people posting statistics on how likely you are to be in a fatal accident and how we should all take better measures to ensure our safety do you? We accept the risk of driving and get on with it... Yeah, 40,000 people die every year in auto accidents, and no one thinks twice about driving. But some people think the world is coming to an end because 1,400 soldiers have died in Iraq over two years... QuoteOut of curiosity, how many innocent people die every minute from people entering their homes and murdering them or from people being attacked on the streets. In the United States in 2000... A murder is committed every 32 minutes. A forcible rape is committed every 5 minutes. A robbery is committed every 1 minute. A aggravated assault is committed every 35 seconds. A violent crime is committed every 22 seconds. (FBI, Uniform Crime Report) In the time it took you to read this message, someone has had their life changed forever by a violent crime - and a gun could have saved them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #210 February 3, 2005 Quote Just because one owns a gun for self defense, does not mean that they live in fear of being attacked. It's simply called; "being prepared". So you dont live in fear of being attacked??? have you ever been attacked, and had to pop a cap in someone??----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #211 February 3, 2005 QuoteI lived in England when the handgun ban was introduced, I did not get punished. Those who already legally owned guns were punished by having their property confiscated and their sport eliminated. Your punishment is having your right to purchase a gun denied, should you ever in the future desire to own one - it is no longer an option for you, or anyone else. QuoteIf a few individuals loose their right to own a handgun and the result is that we prevent mass murders using legally held weapons like Hungerford and Dunblane then I can live with that. You haven't done anything that will prevent such shootings in the future. Any criminal that still wants to get a gun, can. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #212 February 3, 2005 Pop a cap in someone? Somebody's watching too much TV. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #213 February 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteJust because one owns a gun for self defense, does not mean that they live in fear of being attacked. Wouldn't you by definition have that fear? If you had no fear of being attacked, then you would not buy a gun for self defence. QuoteJust because one keeps a fire extinguisher in their home, does not mean that they live in fear of having their house burn down. If you did not fear your house burning down, why would you get the fire extuingisher? You and I have a different definition of "fear". Just because I want to take measures to protect myself from auto accidents, house fires and criminal attacks, does not mean that I live in fear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #214 February 3, 2005 QuotePop a cap in someone? Somebody's watching too much TV. Yeah, the only caps I've popped are on beer bottles. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropoutdave 0 #215 February 3, 2005 Interesting stats. QuoteYour punishment is having your right to purchase a gun denied, should you ever in the future desire to own one - it is no longer an option for you, or anyone else. Newsflash: As a whole, we don't give a shit about guns in this country, they can take em away from us, wave them in front of us and stick it up their arses. We don't feel like we've been punished and we aren't crying about the right to own a gun taken away from us. You need to understand the culture difference before you can understand the politics in the country. ------------------------------------------------------ May Contain Nut traces...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #216 February 3, 2005 QuoteThis is a poor analogy, a better one would be, several people kill/injure themselves jumping high performance canopies without low experience so you impose a wing load restriction based on jump numbers. No-one is being punished, just being prevented from doing something that is known to be dangerous. How is that a better analogy? You have olympic class shooters in your country that have to train elsewhere. The ban is the equilivent of banning guys with 5000 jumps from flying a Pilot 210. Owning a gun isn't dangerous for those with the right intentions and training. Same would apply to HP canopies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #217 February 3, 2005 QuoteAs a whole, we don't give a shit about guns in this country, Apparently some people did, otherwise they wouldn't have had to take them away. Quotethey can take em away from us . . . e don't feel like we've been punished and we aren't crying about the right to own a gun taken away from us. Do you speak on behalf of all your countrymen? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfc 0 #218 February 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteThis is a poor analogy, a better one would be, several people kill/injure themselves jumping high performance canopies without low experience so you impose a wing load restriction based on jump numbers. No-one is being punished, just being prevented from doing something that is known to be dangerous. How is that a better analogy? You have olympic class shooters in your country that have to train elsewhere. The ban is the equilivent of banning guys with 5000 jumps from flying a Pilot 210. Owning a gun isn't dangerous for those with the right intentions and training. Same would apply to HP canopies. Race Car drivers cant practice on public roads, they have to go somewhere special to train, now it is the same for the handgun sports people, they have to take a 30 min flight to France or somewhere else out of the country to practice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfc 0 #219 February 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteI lived in England when the handgun ban was introduced, I did not get punished. Those who already legally owned guns were punished by having their property confiscated and their sport eliminated. Your punishment is having your right to purchase a gun denied, should you ever in the future desire to own one - it is no longer an option for you, or anyone else. QuoteIf a few individuals loose their right to own a handgun and the result is that we prevent mass murders using legally held weapons like Hungerford and Dunblane then I can live with that. You haven't done anything that will prevent such shootings in the future. Any criminal that still wants to get a gun, can. Actually the law would have prevented both such cases. These were cases where normal law abiding people with no history of crime with legally (now banned) weapons went postal. Most people would not know how to obtain a handgun illegally, therfore they are prevented from being able to do this kind of thing by the law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CornishChris 5 #220 February 4, 2005 JR & Kennedy & The SC Gun Club need to face up to the fact that they will have a hard time persuading the English people on this site that we were better off with guns. The reason that no English person is coming on here saying "Damn, those assholes took my guns", is because even when you could buy hand guns, hardly anyone had them. We just have never had the same gun culture as you. I once asked Aggie Dave if he had ever had to defend himself or if his friends had and he knew a dozen or so people who had defended themselves with a gun. I don't know a single person. I know no-one who even got into a situation where they would have been better off if they had got a gun. Not one. This is not because I live with my head up my ass but because it is a very rare occurance. And Jack The Ripper references - come on guys, you got to do better than that. It was over a hundred years ago, he murdered 5 people (confirmed), wow thats your argument for keeping guns! Naming people who have killed without guns doesn't reduce the number of people who kill with them - the ease of access to guns and the relative anonimity with which you can kill is what makes the difference - the sniper never had to look the person in the eye and watch them die. CJP Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #221 February 4, 2005 Quote Race Car drivers cant practice on public roads, they have to go somewhere special to train, now it is the same for the handgun sports people, they have to take a 30 min flight to France or somewhere else out of the country to practice. Race car drivers can practice on public roads, they just have to stay within speed limits. Skyline at 11am, for example. It's not all just about going WFO. Racers tend to live near tracks for obvious reasons ... it would be lame to have to move to another country. We had a similar problem here in CA for a year when the 2001 legislation came through. The AG told a 16yo girl she would have to move to Arizona or somewhere if she wanted to continue being a competitive .22 shooter. The outrage lead to patchwork legislation to legalize competition models. You're trying really hard to find these poor analogies. Quote Actually the law would have prevented both such cases. These were cases where normal law abiding people with no history of crime with legally (now banned) weapons went postal. Most people would not know how to obtain a handgun illegally, therfore they are prevented from being able to do this kind of thing by the law. You mean it would prevent people from shooting a lot of people, not killing them. On that criteria it is a partial improvement, but there are no shortage of counterexamples of other ways people can cause mayhem. The English are all too familiar with bombing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #222 February 4, 2005 QuoteActually the law would have prevented both such cases. These were cases where normal law abiding people with no history of crime with legally (now banned) weapons went postal. And there's where you're failing to understsand the larger issue. Laws don't prevent anything, they simply provide a means to punsih the law breakers. QuoteMost people would not know how to obtain a handgun illegally, therfore they are prevented from being able to do this kind of thing by the law. Laws prevent normally law abiding people from asking around? I'll bet you a dollar that if I decided I wanted an illegal gun that I could have one in a matter of days. I'll bet you could, too. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #223 February 4, 2005 QuoteAnd Jack The Ripper references . . . wow thats your argument for keeping guns! No, it was an argument to show that you don't need guns to commit heinous crimes. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #224 February 4, 2005 I think this sums up it nicely. http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Shooting-people-Yes-sir-its-a-hell-of-a-hoot/2005/02/04/1107410021172.html----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #225 February 4, 2005 Quote Sorry but you can "guess" whatever you want to, right or wrong keep on guessingLaughCoolno point in saying that you guessed right or wrong is there? So it's ok for you to throw out an insulting stereotype, but when I apply that same train of thought to other topics, you go off on some ridiculous tangent about guessing. Note to self: don't bother using logic when discussing htings with "slug." Quote I'm "guessing" that you not beating your domestic partner anymore. Since you not a real policeman yet. So according to you every cop beats his partner? Well, since you don't condone domestic violence, you should never call the cops, right? Take aggiedave's advice: next time you're in trouble, try calling a crackhead and leave those brutes to their violence. QuoteThe Chief of Police of Tacoma ... What in God's name does that have to do with anything in this thread?witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
