Andrea Yate's Murder Convictions Overturned

[slug 1]

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I found a profile on her, hope you peeps find it intresting.

http://crime.about.com/od/current/p/andreayates.htm

Thanks for the historical objective facts.

the facts speak for themselves. If anyone doesn't understand what hapened then there's no point in doing the circle thing.

R.I.P.

[tigra 0]

I *think* its "Guilty but insane" or something along those lines. Its not a question of a not guilty verdict or of her being returned to society, but whether or not she will rot in prison for the rest of her life or get treatment in a mental facility. Regardless, its a sickening and tragic story.

[FlailingJohn 0]

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Its not a question of a not guilty verdict or of her being returned to society, but whether or not she will rot in prison for the rest of her life or get treatment in a mental facility.

I agree....but the law does play a role on weather or not she spends life in jail , life in a mental hospital or just some time in a mental hospitall.

from what i read on the insanity defense from the link in posted in a previous post. It seems that if a doctor finds her "not a threat to society". Then she could walk away from a mental hospital not ever been charge with a crime.
To my understanding the insanity defense law differs from state to state. Some states have it where you cannot be acquitted of a criminal act by reason of insanity. If you are found guilty by reason of insanity you spend the rest of your life in a mental health institution. the ladder-- innocent means you can be acquitted, serve time in a mental hospital, and then walk freely without ever being charged of a crime.
......... then again I'm not a lawyer and don't read lawyer stuff very well.


John

[Keith 0]

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He did not kill his kids, she did.

While I would not vote him dad of the year, he didn't kill the kids.

He also did nothing to protect them. What he did was turn a blind eye and allow them to be killed - much worse in my book. He may as well have drawn the bath water.

Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

[masterrig 1]

It's 'Innocent by reason of insanity'. Hope, that helps.

Chuck

[Michele 1]

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First of all, I think there are those of us who do not discount the fact that she has a disease...I just don't see it as justifying her crime, and don't look at her as a good person.

I don't see her as good or bad. I see her as sick. Very, very sick, for a very, very long time, without proper help or medications.

Curious as to why you don't think psychosis justifies (or, as I think of it, explains) anything?

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I think that this whole situation is sad. I feel bad for her, I feel bad for her husband, for her kids, for everyone. I think that her husband has some sort of responsibility in this as well. But then on the other hand, we have people saying, "oh, poor her, she's really depressed now...she can't function." Um...boo hoo. Next time, don't kill your kids.

Post Partum Psychosis is very very different from depression. Very different. Paranoid schitzophrenia is very different from depression. So was the self mutilation, the various suicide attempts, and the other symptoms of her brain disease. All very different than depression.

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BUT! She killed her kids. What do people not understand about this? What is going to stop her from killing other people in the future. Jail isn't just about punishment, but protecting the public from criminals as well. She committed a crime and is a danger. If she killed her own kids, what is to stop her from killing others?

She is unlikely to ever walk the streets, to start with. Yes, she killed her children. Five glorious, brilliant, incredible children are dead because of her and their father. Yes, it is the ultimate betrayal - a mother or father killing their own child(ren). Yes, it is atrocious and horrifying and incredibly sad. I understand that completely.

Prison is protecting us from "them," I'll agree there, too. It's about punishment. Another agreement. I think she needs to be observed for the entire rest of her life...but I think it shouldn't be in prison; it should be in a psychiatric facility where she can start getting help and treatment and hopefully, someday, become something resembling the promise she showed early in her life. That won't happen in prison.

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Is Charles Manson normal? Was Jeffry Dahmer normal? Was David Berkowitz normal? No, but they were and are considered criminals. Why is this so different? Why does she deserve special treatment?

Nope, they weren't "normal." Neither was Bundy, Gacy, Gein, Kemper, Kraft, Wuornos, and on and on. The difference between those and Andrea Yates is choice and ability. All those you mentioned had the choice to not take an action. All those had an ability to reason, to restrain themselves, from killing. They chose to kill anyway.

Andrea's mind didn't give her a choice. She didn't have a choice. Her thoughts were so amazingly fucked up that she couldn't see any choice. She had no ability to censor herself and correct her behavior. She had no ability to make a different choice. And that's the part people don't seem to understand.

It is foreign to me to think like she must've been...to kill someone, let alone the five children I put on this planet. I have a comprehensive understanding of what it's like to have disrupted thoughts, to fight a brain disease...and I still can't fathom killing children. But that doesn't mean anything at all...it's her thoughts, her psychosis, her brain disease.

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~Should you be held to the same standards as others who do so with malicious intent? Who do it with an evil, black heart?~

This is the first time that I have ever heard anyone say anything remotely like this regarding murder...that apparently someone has a good heart and only "meant the best". I have heard people say that parents administer beatings out of love, but MURDER? There are really no words to describe how disturbing that sounds.

If I recall correctly, the black heart is a phrase used to articulate intent. It gives rise to the intent aspect of a crime, and that's an important part of a crime. I didn't mention "good heart," but it is very clear that if someone didn't have the intent to commit a certain crime, that crime can be reduced to a lesser charge. I would imagine that's where "good heart" comes in.

Having a black heart is something which I have always thought an apt description of people like Manson, Dahmer, Berkowitz (et al) have. Their intent is clear; I don't believe Andrea had the ability to form intent as it is commonly understood. I do believe that her thoughts were not something anyone can ever understand, and I do wish she had stayed on her medications (and that she received correct medications and treatment to begin with).

Sorry you take offense at my words...but I as well have been offended by much in this thread. There are such predictable fear responses to this that it makes me sad. And makes me realize just how far society still needs to come to understand - or at least have compassion and/or sympathy for - those who suffer significant brain disease.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Michele 1]

A note about Post Partum Depression/Psychosis. I know a lady who had horrible PPD for her first two pregnancies. She did not get help. Her husband would ask me to come over and help out with the kids, to give her a break. I would do so without question. During her third pregancy, she spoke to me about her fears of PPD. I asked her to get medication and to take it immediately upon the birth of her child. She declined...I spoke with her husband (my friend), and told him to get her onto medication. He told me "it's her life, I can't tell her what to do." And he's right, to a degree...he can't.

Long story short, about 2 months after she had her third child, I got a call at work. It was her husband...she had locked herself in the bathroom with the baby, and all he could hear was the both of them crying. Both wailing. He was taking care of the other two children, and wanted to know what I thought he should do. She had been locked in there for 45 minutes.

I told him get the other kids to the neighbors. Then call the police, break the door down, whatever it took to get to her and the baby. There was massive danger there and it needed to be addressed. He said "no, I'll just talk to her some more."

I left work, and arrived at his place about 20 minutes later. I got the other two kids over to the neigbhors, went upstairs to my friend, and told him to get the fuck out of Dodge...and then pounded on the door, took a screwdriver to the hinges (utterly ineffective), and told her I was calling for the police if she didn't come out immediately.

She did...why she came out to me and not her husband I don't understand, but she did come out to me. I made sure the baby was all right, and put her in the car and took her to her OBGYN.

Upshot? She's been on antidepressants now for a while, and is doing well. She's stabilized, and understands that she is not out of danger. She is no longer on hormonal birth control, and her family is thriving.

And this was only Post Partum Depression, not Post partum psychosis...and not PPP combined with other brain diseases.

Think really hard about making judgements on people who have a verifiable illness that you don't understand.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[rhino 0]

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I dont think she should be put to death. She was cleary f-ed up mentally

Had she killed all 4 of your kids you wouldn't be saying that. You would be screaming burn her at the stake!

But a mom? Killing all 4 of her own children brutally!? A mother couldn't POSSIBLY do such a thing? She must have been mentally ill right?

WRONG!

She is EVIL. PURE EVIL. She needs to be drowned 4 times and brought back to life before executed by hanging. As far as I am concerned this woman is an evil piece of shit and has no rights.

If my own wife ever pulled that shit.. THERE WOULDN'T BE A TRIAL...........

Rhino

[Zenister 0]

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First of all, I think there are those of us who do not discount the fact that she has a disease...I just don't see it as justifying her crime, and don't look at her as a good person.

I don't see her as good or bad. I see her as sick. Very, very sick, for a very, very long time, without proper help or medications.

the question then becomes....

how much should society spend to care for 'the sick' who are a proven threat to themselves and others?
no question that they are sick, but do we still hold them responsible for their actions?

imo everyone should be held responsible for what they do, no matter what the 'reason' otherwise..drunk, stoned, insane, abused or otherwise...

what is society's obligation to care for those who not only cannot care for themselves but are a proven threat?

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[crwslut 0]

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If understanding right and wrong is missing due to a brain disease, is it still a crime?

This is an enlightening thread. Sad, but enlightening. So many people are not willing to understand what happens with a brain disease...that's sad.

She should be placed in a facility where she can get treatment...not jailed. Treated. The depth of her brain disease is such that she will likely never be released from it, as she will probably always pose a threat to self or others; but I'd rather see her in a place where treatment can be received rather than just shut away.

Sigh.

Ciels-
Michele

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I agree with some of your argument but wonder if we would even be having this discussion if a mentally ill husband had drowned his children.

What could possibly go wrong?

[Michele 1]

Zenister, great questions. I don't have the answer. I do know that incarcerating someone who is organically mentally illneeds treatment isn't correct, on whatever level they're imprisoned. I don't know the rest of the answer, though.

Crwslut:

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I agree with some of your argument but wonder if we would even be having this discussion if a mentally ill husband had drowned his children.

There was/is a case where a husband killed his wife and several of his children...Fresno? Somewhere midCalifornia. He is currently being assessed for mental illness...I don't know the outcome yet, but from what I understand, the trial was set and delayed because of the testing.

So yes, we might be having the same conversation (sans Post Partum Pschosis, as that isn't male applicable.)

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[SBS 0]

As far as the difference between PPP/PPS and depression that you mentioned, I was referring to another statement later on about her being depressed now, not her psychosis before the incident.

I see justification and explaination as two significantly different things. I believe that psychosis explains...I don't think it justifies. I don't believe that anything can justify killing your children like this.

I think that she deserves to be protected from potential harm from other inmates, just like everyone else who is potentially threatened.

I do not especially see the reason for wanting to give her extensive treatmet, though, because I do not believe that she should ever be allowed to even attempt to be an active member of society. She had the opportunity to be a member of society by keeping her illness in check with counselling, medication, etc. If she failed in some way, then she should be punished for the crimes. If it was uncontrollable, there is no saying that it won't happen again, and she should be put away purely for our protection. Either way, she should be permantently removed from society.

These other killers had choices, but are none the less, insane. They are also sick. I just wonder where the line is drawn, where one is sick, but not THAT sick, whereas someone else is so sick that they are excused for their crimes. Personally, I don't really think that any of them have the abilities to wrap their minds around their actions.

People are tried and convicted for assisted suicide, which I think is a good example of someone without a "black heart". These people are trying to take pain from another in accordance with their wishes. It's still murder. Yes, intent is important in some realm...but "I killed him/her because heaven is a better place and I wanted to free them from this world" doesn't work for me.

I am sincerely convinced that if it were a man in this position that he would not be receiving the same defense as this woman is in these discussions.

I don't take offense per se at your words. I just find this discussion as disturbing as you do, because I feel so incredibly opposed to some of the views that have been expressed.

You call these "fear responses", but I, for one, don't fear your point of view. I don't agree with it, but I don't fear it or the illness, or anything like that. What I really fear is that people would be able to use psychosis as a way to lessen sentences and possibly, one day, walk the streets again. I don't see that as an unreasonable concern.

-S

_____________
I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[Ron 7]

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He also did nothing to protect them. What he did was turn a blind eye and allow them to be killed - much worse in my book.

Not thinking yor wide would kill her own children and she does is worse than killing them?

She had not shown violence to the children before. She had shown herself to be suicidal, but the Dr. took her off her meds.

If my wife was taken off her meds, I would assume she was getting better.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Michele 1]

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I am sincerely convinced that if it were a man in this position that he would not be receiving the same defense as this woman is in these discussions.

Actually, I know several cases where the man had either killed several wives (one) or his entire family (two). In the first case, there was a history of brain disease; he had killed his first wife, adjudged insane, put into a facility, was medicated, released, went off medications, and killed his new wife. He's not in prison, he's back in the institution (which was sued for negligence in letting him out in the first place). In the second, the man is now in the process of having his sanity determined...I do not know if he'd had a history of psychiatric problems, but he is in the process.

Those are two I know of. I'm sure there are more, and I just don't know of them.

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You call these "fear responses", but I, for one, don't fear your point of view. I don't agree with it, but I don't fear it or the illness, or anything like that. What I really fear is that people would be able to use psychosis as a way to lessen sentences and possibly, one day, walk the streets again. I don't see that as an unreasonable concern.

I see your points. I don't agree with them in toto.

I do agree that she will always pose a danger; either to herself or to society. I understand that because she will always pose such a danger, that she will likely never be released to walk the streets. Given her history, she will likely never be assessed capable of taking care of herself, remain on meds, and be able to interact in a "normal" basis in society.

I have not advocated her release into the general public. I have strongly advocated a psychiatric facility and treatment.

Further, I think, since the McNaughton rule has been around about 100 years, that if we were to see an influx of people using it successfully and returning to the streets to kill again and again, it probably would have happened before now. I am NOT discounting your position. But the standards for NGRS are so very high that they cannot be reached with any frequency. There are many states which say "Guilty But Insane," which to me is a far more reasonable sentence. Texas, however, only has Not Guilty By Reason Of Insanity, not Guilty but Insane. IIRC, when one is guilty but insane, they are remanded to a criminal psychiatric institution...not allowed to "walk free." This is the optimum situation for Andrea Yates in my opinion.

The fear responses I speak of are the ones where people, not being able to see/touch/feel an illness, take steps to protect themselves from a perceived (and often imagined) threat. We have great medical schools. People cut up bodies and actually study the organic, physical make-up of the human structure. And that is invaluable in learning about illnesses, treatment, and prevention.

But when it comes to a brain disease that hasn't any real physical component, and yet can literally change a person, it's a scary thing. It's not easily understood, nor easily explained, by and to the average person...matter of fact, most people who study brain disease don't understand fully how everything works, and how everything comes together and affects things. And we are fearful of that which we don't understand. It's normal...but in this case, it's also really sad.

Our system of justice is predicated upon an understanding of right and wrong. With rare exception, we don't prosecute minors until they are of an age to comprehend what is acceptable societal behavior and not acceptable societal behavior. It is right to not steal; and yet a 6 year old has not developed fully enough to be able to always control that impulse behavior which makes them reach out and steal the candy from the shelf at the super market. But we don't prosecute them on a regular level. Yet, the intent was there - "I want the candy" and the action is there "I'll take the candy." Thus you have a complete crime - intent + action. I haven't seen a DA file on a kid stealing a candy bar, not because it wasn't a crime, but because of his age, his brain development, and his understanding of right and wrong.

What in the world does that have to do with Andrea Yates? I say that while there was a complete crime in the most pure sense - intent + action - one must also assess was she able to make decisions from a moral standpoint at the time of the crime? Can you honestly say, reading her (semi-accurate) profile linked earlier in this thread, that she was of sound mind? That she knew right from wrong?

Her brain chemistry was completely whacked. Her thoughts were not normal, usual, nor even comprehensible to the average person. They did not follow a normal pattern. She heard things that did not exist. And this was because of brain chemistry, not because she wanted to think thoughts like that.

If one literally can't think straight, we cannot hold them to the same standard we would hold someone who did think straight but had a "black heart." As Wendy said, we would never ask someone with Cerebral Palsy to compete in the Olympics. It just wouldn't happen. Likewise, I say we can't expect Andrea Yates to think straight, because the chemicals used in that process are either non-existent, too high, or don't have the chemical they need to function correctly.

I get so frustrated with people sometimes because they don't recognize that people with brain diseases like hers really don't think the same way we do. They can't follow the same logic, the same languaging, the regular patterns of life. They can't understand the esoteric aspects of life, either. They can't comprehend right and wrong in the societally accepted manner. They can't follow the same rules. And it's not because they don't want to; it's because they can't.

To me, that ability - the choice aspect - is the fundamental difference between Andrea Yates and those like her, and serial killers. They have a choice. She didn't.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[justaflygirl 0]

Maybe Im closed minded, but how can someone bethat mentally ill and still be left alone with 5 children? Was her husband blind to the warning signs, there had to be some pretty blatent ones for her to commit such an unsightly thing., I agree with Michelle on what her new sentence should, then she should be sterilized. If she is capable of doing something like this, IMHO, I dont think she would ever be sane enough to bare children, let alone be allowed to care for them. I myslef, suffer from depression among other things and my children bring me great relief and joy. Their smiling faces, hugs and kisses can make any bad day go away and can bring me a smile on my darkest days. They are my little gifts of God.

[crozby 0]

excellent post

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[slug 1]

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He also did nothing to protect them. What he did was turn a blind eye and allow them to be killed - much worse in my book.

Not thinking yor wide would kill her own children and she does is worse than killing them?

She had not shown violence to the children before. She had shown herself to be suicidal, but the Dr. took her off her meds.

If my wife was taken off her meds, I would assume she was getting better.

The Dr only see's the patient X times. Based on 20-20 hindsight and the link to the yakes bio the Dr's qualifications are questionable. If someone is interested enough they could google the guy.

The patients significant other see's them every day.

The Dr and husband were both wrong. Just like the expert witness (DR) who testified in court for the prosecuter that was so confused the conviction was overturned.

I use Dr's as consultants their humans and some are better than others but they all make mistakes. Oops where's my eraser

R.I.P.

[Casurf1978 0]

She was on Haldol, I'm not talking about Valium or Xanax. Haldol is strong shit and from what I've read used in severe cases of Schizophrenia. They use this shit with people who have severe LSD flashbacks. She's not evil, she is very VERY f-ed up mentally. You cannot hold someone who is insane to the same standards you and I are held to. The one who should be strung up is her last shrink. He took her off Haldol, released her while she was on suicide watch (this is right before she drowned her kids) and told her to think happy thoughts. That the guy who I wanna see strung up.

[slug 1]

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She was on Haldol, I'm not talking about Valium or Xanax. Haldol is strong shit and from what I've read used in severe cases of Schizophrenia. They use this shit with people who have severe LSD flashbacks. She's not evil, she is very VERY f-ed up mentally. You cannot hold someone who is insane to the same standards you and I are held to. The one who should be strung up is her last shrink. He took her off Haldol, released her while she was on suicide watch (this is right before she drowned her kids) and told her to think happy thoughts. That the guy who I wanna see strung up.

The medical profession has a bad track record of cleaning their own house.

Best case his insurance company would finally say sorry you can't afford to pay our premiums. then he would be out of business in this country.... maybe
R.I.P.

[PhreeZone 15]

But if you stare at yourself in the mirror every day for 15 minutes, smile and think happy things thats a sure fire cure for depression and mental illness accourding to people on here

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Keith 0]

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But if you stare at yourself in the mirror every day for 15 minutes, smile and think happy things thats a sure fire cure for depression and mental illness accourding to people on here

I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and dogonit, people like me.

Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

[Michele 1]

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But if you stare at yourself in the mirror every day for 15 minutes, smile and think happy things thats a sure fire cure for depression and mental illness accourding to people on here

Yep, that's what some people say.

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I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and dogonit, people like me.

Yeppers, you really are.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[SkyDekker 1,155]

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what is society's obligation to care for those who not only cannot care for themselves but are a proven threat?

The answer to that quesitoin is driven by the type of society.