Tsunami aid - US provides $35m, Japan $30m, UK $29m - France $136,000!?!?

[bodypilot90 0]

we know that "Un, Germany, france and Russia " were involved. What's your point?

[jcd11235 0]

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Asking the federal government to support you (in your note implied health care) is just another way of asking those individuals who pay federal taxes to support you.

The vast majority of students are doing society a favor by furthering their education. The difference in their lifetime tax contribution will likely far exceed average cost of healthcare while they are in school. In the short term, it may appear to be giving away healthcare at the expense of the taxpayer, but in the long run it is a sound investment.

Oftentimes, seeing a doctor when a problem is small and still easily treated, is not possible because the problem is not yet dire enough for an emergency room to be interested in you. So the problem goes away, or continues to worsen until the necessary medical care costs significantly more than what it might have had the problem been taken care of earlier. The result is either very large bills for impoverished students, who are often already burdened with their student loans upon graduating, or the debt is written off, either at the direct expense of the taxpayers, or, indirectly, through writeoffs or other tax reducing mechanism in place.

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[mr2mk1g 10]

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we know that "Un, Germany, france and Russia " were involved. What's your point?

We also know that the US was involved. You suggested half the contributions from the above states be attributed to Iraq... does half the US contribution get attributed to Iraq too?

[Ron 7]

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The vast majority of students are doing society a favor by furthering their education. The difference in their lifetime tax contribution will likely far exceed average cost of healthcare while they are in school. In the short term, it may appear to be giving away healthcare at the expense of the taxpayer, but in the long run it is a sound investment.

So yes, you want free health care.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rehmwa 2]

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The vast majority of students are doing society a favor by furthering their education. The difference in their lifetime tax contribution will likely far exceed average cost of healthcare while they are in school. In the short term, it may appear to be giving away healthcare at the expense of the taxpayer, but in the long run it is a sound investment.

So yes, you want free health care.

Ron, you just don't get it or "won't" get it.

These students go to school for strictly selfless reasons. The full intent is to make more for strict goal of paying more taxes and feeling guilty over the choices other people make.

If you can't appreciate the incredible sacrifice these kids are making, then you'll never get it.

I remember sacrificing: going to class, sleeping in, parties, meeting girls, joining clubs, intermural sports, ball games, torture after torture every single day.

It was horrible - and all I got in return was an education, good jobs, decent standard of living.....

How can you expect anyone to go to school when the personal payoff is so horrible? Of course there should be government provided perks to make it easier to make that incredibly giving sacrifice for society as a whole....

{Just to be safe here - }

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[storm1977 0]

LOL... right ON!!!!

Those "Weekends Start on Wednessday" parties were just too much to take!!!! I feared them every week!!!

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[skydyvr 0]

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These students go to school for strictly selfless reasons.

Thanks for the explanation -- I "get it" now.

. . =(_8^(1)

[Ron 7]

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Ron, you just don't get it or "won't" get it.

These students go to school for strictly selfless reasons. The full intent is to make more for strict goal of paying more taxes and feeling guilty over the choices other people make.

If you can't appreciate the incredible sacrifice these kids are making, then you'll never get it.

I remember sacrificing: going to class, sleeping in, parties, meeting girls, joining clubs, intermural sports, ball games, torture after torture every single day.

It was horrible - and all I got in return was an education, good jobs, decent standard of living.....

How can you expect anyone to go to school when the personal payoff is so horrible? Of course there should be government provided perks to make it easier to make that incredibly giving sacrifice for society as a whole....

I guess I am just mad that I never got to sacrifice that much for my country. I instead took the easy way of serving in the Military and getting the GI Bill, then working a FT job while going to school.

All this and my Doctor, after such a hard life, gets to drive a Porshe. I tell you that man is a saint!!!!!

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rehmwa 2]

See? It's just a matter of "evolving", "enlightenment" and all that.

I'm working hard on using meaningless, yet judgmental, subjective terms in everyday communications. It helps at mixers when talking to the "free spirits" (whatever that means).

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jcd11235 0]

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So yes, you want free health care.

More accurately, I believe we as a society would be better off if people were not so stressed obver healthcare. I don't have any illusions that such changes will take place in time to assist me, as a student. That does not mean that I don't believe the system needs overhauled.

Besides, if you had read the post you would have seen where future increases in my tax payments would more than cover the healthcare as a student.


Your implications that my motivations are selfish, and that I am trying to get something for nothing are ludicrous, innacurate, and unfounded.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

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These students go to school for strictly selfless reasons. The full intent is to make more for strict goal of paying more taxes and feeling guilty over the choices other people make.

If you can't appreciate the incredible sacrifice these kids are making, then you'll never get it.

I remember sacrificing: going to class, sleeping in, parties, meeting girls, joining clubs, intermural sports, ball games, torture after torture every single day.

It was horrible - and all I got in return was an education, good jobs, decent standard of living.....

I have never said that students do not benefit from their own education; I said that society benefits tremendously as well.

As far as college as a social scene, I had to give all that up in order to be able to afford to go to college. I'm lucky to see two parties a year, let alone each weekend. Such things are rarer now than before I went to college.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rehmwa 2]

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As far as college as a social scene, I had to give all that up in order to be able to afford to go to college. I'm lucky to see two parties a year, let alone each weekend. Such things are rarer now than before I went to college.

Chris - I have never seem someone so convinced they've sacrificed everything for one purpose, especially since most of the time college parties are just a few friends hanging out with some cases of beer. Not much expense there. If you really feel that way, you are in for some serious high blood pressure later in life.

I've never hired a college student based on GPA alone. The social and communication skills we get in college are just as important as the studying and class time. (Give me a student with a 3.0 that also worked full time to pay his own way and I'll hire him over the 4.0 that had his entire way paid for by the folks). He'll 'typically' just communicate better, understand the bottom line better, and work harder.

Get out and have some fun or sacrifice a bit of that GPA for that job. It's a terrible waste of the experience if you just go to class, study, sleep, repeat.

What degree are you working to? Maybe that will let us understand what you mean here better. I was assuming it was at technical degree based on your defense of math over testing posting a while back. Maybe it's something like a PhD in Nuclear/Quantum Physics applications to Medicine research in 12 months or something. In that case, perhaps all you do have time for is studying, classwork and sleep (and posting a lot).

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ron 7]

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More accurately, I believe we as a society would be better off if people were not so stressed obver healthcare

Yes. Of course society would be less stressed if we all had our houses, cars, and hookers paid for also.

However, that idea is directly opposed to the foundation of this country. People are motivated by two things; Pleasure and pain.

You are going to school to increase your pleasure later. Make no mistake you are not going to school to make society a better place. You are going to get a good job and make money so you can buy nice things. Yes, you will pay taxes, but your motivation is pleasure.

People are also motivated by pain. I was broke once. I made less than poverty level, and went hungry many times. That fear made it so I busted my ass to make money. To this day I invest 20% of my salary so I will never have to feel that way again. If there was a public support system in place to prevent me from going hungry....I might not have had that fear.

You want me to pay for you to go and get a better life. My only reward would be watching you drive a 50k car and live in a big house. Thats a bad investment since I now have people going to school of their own free will. You are not my child so why should I have to pay for you to go to school just so you can later make twice what I do?

Bad investment.

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Besides, if you had read the post you would have seen where future increases in my tax payments would more than cover the healthcare as a student.

Not true. What about the large dropout rate? Or those students that are in a Liberal arts program like "Dance"? They are not going to make more to offset the cost of their education.

Also most degrees will bring you 1 million more over your lifetime. Thats still a bad return on my investment.

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Your implications that my motivations are selfish, and that I am trying to get something for nothing are ludicrous, innacurate, and unfounded.

Your implications that you are going to school to benefit mankind is ludicrous, innacurate, and unfounded.

You are going to school so you may live a better life...good for you.

Don't expect me to pay now so you can drive a Porshe later.

Like I said, you are not my kid.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jcd11235 0]

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Chris - I have never seem someone so convinced they've sacrificed everything for one purpose, especially since most of the time college parties are just a few friends hanging out with some cases of beer. Not much expense there. If you really feel that way, you are in for some serious high blood pressure later in life.

Except around finals, I'm really not that stressed. I gave up drinking a while back, except for free Guiness (the free part just keeps me from drinking too much, which, I personally, have to worry about).

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I've never hired a college student based on GPA alone. The social and communication skills we get in college are just as important as the studying and class time. (Give me a student with a 3.0 that also worked full time to pay his own way and I'll hire him over the 4.0 that had his entire way paid for by the folks). He'll 'typically' just communicate better, understand the bottom line better, and work harder.

I put very little stock in grades, myself, but that is a whole different topic for a new thread. I also prefer to work, when that is a feasable option. Some semesters it is, some it is not, but, through work and loans I am going it pretty much alone. Uncle Sam even came up with an excuse to deny me my GI Bill benefits (statement of fact, not bitching). I also agree that the social and communication skills are important.

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What degree are you working to? Maybe that will let us understand what you mean here better. I was assuming it was at technical degree based on your defense of math over testing posting a while back. Maybe it's something like a PhD in Nuclear/Quantum Physics applications to Medicine research in 12 months or something. In that case, perhaps all you do have time for is studying, classwork and sleep (and posting a lot).

I study Math/ Physics, with an eye towards grad work in Astrophysics, Cosmology, Quantum Theory, or Chaos Theory. Some semesters the load is light, based on difficulty od classes, and some semesters it is very difficult and time consuming. Since I have been posting on here, I have been on winter break, so it doesn't interfere with any classes. Plus, I take odd jobs when they are available to me, which is sporadic at best, but they do help, and I am glad to have them.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

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You are going to school to increase your pleasure later. Make no mistake you are not going to school to make society a better place. You are going to get a good job and make money so you can buy nice things. Yes, you will pay taxes, but your motivation is pleasure.

First, the two primary motivators are fear and love.

Next, please do assume you know anything about my motivations. Money cannot buy me pleasure. While your motivations may have been selfish, that is not the case for everyone.

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Not true. What about the large dropout rate? Or those students that are in a Liberal arts program like "Dance"? They are not going to make more to offset the cost of their education.

Some of the high dropout rate is due to tuition expense. Other contributing factors include poor time management, lack of motivation, and difficulty. If sttudents drop out of school, they are no longer students, and tend to go into the work force.

Funny you should mention dance. From the Reed College brochure: "Steve Jobs [You know Steve Jobs, right Ron? Co-founder of Apple computer?] credits his early success as a programmer to the sense of spacial relationships and movement he developed while taking a Reed dance class." Not only was his dance instruction a valuable part of his education, it helped him earn WAY more than he might have otherwise.

Liberal Arts degrees teach students how to think, making them far more versatile (and valuable) in the workplace.

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Also most degrees will bring you 1 million more over your lifetime. Thats still a bad return on my investment.

$1M at 10% is $100,000, which far exceeds the average medical expenses of college students. That makes it a good investment, not a bad one.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Ron 7]

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First, the two primary motivators are fear and love.

No, Love is pleasure. You don't eat a nice steak cause you love it.

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Next, please do assume you know anything about my motivations. Money cannot buy me pleasure. While your motivations may have been selfish, that is not the case for everyone.

Please don't try and act like Mother Teressa. You are not going to school for the benefit of mankind. You are going to school to make money later (pleasure) and I commend you for it, I am just not willing to pay for it.

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Some of the high dropout rate is due to tuition expense

And I have shown how paying for your school is a bad investment of MY money.

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Other contributing factors include poor time management, lack of motivation, and difficulty. If sttudents drop out of school, they are no longer students, and tend to go into the work force.

But under your idea I would have had to pay for them while they were in school. When they drop out for these reasons, all that money would have been wasted since they would not have the big (As you claim) incomes that would be taxed to help offset the cost of their school.

Again, a bad investment.

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Funny you should mention dance. From the Reed College brochure: "Steve Jobs [You know Steve Jobs, right Ron? Co-founder of Apple computer?] credits his early success as a programmer to the sense of spacial relationships and movement he developed while taking a Reed dance class."

You think the Reed brochure was gonna say it was a massive bong hit?

And I know Jobs...He was they guy that was to busy flying his airplane to talk to some guys from a company that wanted him to develop the next operating system for their computers. Those folks were from IBM and they went from his office to Gates. (Information as usless as yours)

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Liberal Arts degrees teach students how to think, making them far more versatile (and valuable) in the workplace.

BS and not the degree. It does not related to income and therefore they would not be paying the taxes on their large salaries to help "payback" the system for me supporting them...Like I said a bad investment.

If my kid wanted to go to school for dance...I would not pay for it.

A bad investment.

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$1M at 10% is $100,000, which far exceeds the average medical expenses of college students. That makes it a good investment, not a bad one.

Take into that deductions. And like we have already covered, not all are going to be Dr's and make the big bucks. Also consider the dropout rate for the reasons you have covered that are not economic....Again not a good investment.

Just becasue you want it does not make it a good idea.

And just cause you claim that it is the best interest for all does not mean it is.

Just cause you claim you are doing it for the greater good of mankind...does not mean it IS the reason you do it, or that it is for the greater good.

It is a bad investment.

BTW why did the VA deny your GI Bill?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[craddock 0]

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Oftentimes, seeing a doctor when a problem is small and still easily treated, is not possible because the problem is not yet dire enough for an emergency room to be interested in you.

This makes no sense to me. Are you saying that a Docter in Flordia will not see you because you do not have health insurance? I don't buy that. Is that legal? If a problem is small and easily treated, it should not be that much if you just have to make an office visit. I don't get you.

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[jcd11235 0]

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No, Love is pleasure. You don't eat a nice steak cause you love it.

Pleasure is a manifestitation of Love, and not the other way around. For example, I love mathematics and the intrinsic elegance and simplicity. I find little, if any, pleasure in learning mathematics, however. It is difficult, and a pain in the ass, and takes time away from other things I find pleasurable, but do not love to such a degree.

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You are not going to school for the benefit of mankind.

Again, Ron, you don't know me, and have no idea what my motivations are. Not that it is any of your business, I would like to go into teaching, and not for the money, but because I can make the most positive difference there. No, I'm no Mother Theresa, but I'm not motivated by financial selfishness, either.

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And I have shown how paying for your school is a bad investment of MY money.

No, Ron, you haven't. You keep saying it is a bad investment, but you have provided no evidence to support your argument.

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But under your idea I would have had to pay for them while they were in school. When they drop out for these reasons, all that money would have been wasted since they would not have the big (As you claim) incomes that would be taxed to help offset the cost of their school.

Nor are they contributing to a large costs at the expense of the taxpayer, Ron. Pretty simple.

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You think the Reed brochure was gonna say it was a massive bong hit?

No, the would have excluded the point entirely. Why do you like to smear people so much?

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And I know Jobs.

Wow, impressive. Would you kindly thank him for me for making available to us a reliable alternative to Microsoft PCs?

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Take into that deductions. And like we have already covered, not all are going to be Dr's and make the big bucks. Also consider the dropout rate for the reasons you have covered that are not economic....Again not a good investment.

I countered the deductions with an worst case 10% tax rate. You're right, not all will be doctors, but, even a Bachelor degree will increase earning potential. Until I went back to school, I have consistantly been fully, oftentimes doubly, employed. I have yet to get up to the poverty line. I have come to the realistic conclusion that an education beyond a HS diploma is my best shot. I don't understand why we allow our society to make it so difficult to get an education, when an educated population is cleary beneficial to the society.

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Just becasue you want it does not make it a good idea.

And just cause you claim that it is the best interest for all does not mean it is.

I realize that such a system is going to put an unfair burden on current taxpayers who had to pay their own way, and now would be expected to help pay the way of others.
In the long run, though, it would be a small price to pay for the long term benefit of a better educated population. In a few generations, all the payers will have been payees, so any real cost to the taxpayer is really due to transition to the new system, and not the system itself.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rehmwa 2]

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Liberal Arts degrees teach students how to think, making them far more versatile (and valuable) in the workplace.

Nuts, any education can help those talents, so can sports, life experience, etc. Attributing a special impact from Liberal Arts over any other degree is nuts. I'd rather see you say mixing up the various types of learning stretches versatility.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jcd11235 0]

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This makes no sense to me. Are you saying that a Docter in Flordia will not see you because you do not have health insurance? I don't buy that. Is that legal? If a problem is small and easily treated, it should not be that much if you just have to make an office visit. I don't get you.

The low cost is relative to the cost of necessary treatment if the problem escalates to the point where it requires emergency attention, which is very costly. The cost is not so low when compared to the income of anun/under employed student. For the price of a doctor's visit I can eat well for a month. A month's worth of food money gone from my budget is not so easily overcome.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[craddock 0]

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The low cost is relative to the cost of necessary treatment if the problem escalates to the point where it requires emergency attention, which is very costly. The cost is not so low when compared to the income of anun/under employed student. For the price of a doctor's visit I can eat well for a month.

This goes back to you not working. Get a fucking cash job for $10 in your spare time so you can pay for a $150-200 office visit. What if your CV joint goes out of your car and you can't drive to school(for someone who can't afford to live on campus). Should we pay that $300 bill too because you are not working? You might have to chose -School or Car. Boy that seems unfair in this rich nation of ours does it not!

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A month's worth of food money gone from my budget is not so easily overcome.

True-if you refuse to work.

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[jcd11235 0]

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Get a fucking cash job for $10 in your spare time so you can pay for a $150-200 office visit.

I've heard its easiest to find a job when you're sick.

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What if your CV joint goes out of your car and you can't drive to school(for someone who can't afford to live on campus). Should we pay that $300 bill too because you are not working? You might have to chose -School or Car. Boy that seems unfair in this rich nation of ours does it not!

No, public transportation is available, until such time I am able to make/ pay for repairs. I've done it before. If you wonder if I am in favor of having public transportation available, then yes, I am. But, let's stay on topic, shall we? No one brought up automobile repairs.
You make it sound as though I am saying that no one should ever have to work if they don't feel like it. That is not at all what I am saying. If you would express your concerns in the more productive form of questions, instead of countering claims I never made, we might be able to have a constructive debate.
As far as work, I work odd jobs when time permits. Study time requirements are funny. They might be six hours this week and sixty next week. I am not afraid of work by any stretch of the imagination, but the fact of the matter remains that work is sometimes not the most productive use of ones time.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[dorbie 0]

I say if you have no job and are a struggling student, there's no better way to spend your time than posting on DZ.com all day long about how tough it is to be you. That's really bustin' it.

[jcd11235 0]

Yeah, I do this 24/7/52, didn't you know?

While classes are out, and can't afford to live it up during my downtime, yeah, I might post on a discussion board. If I had a job oppurtunity, that would be my priority. But people are addly reluctant to hire anyone who is soon not going to be available for more than an hour or two at a stretch during the business day.

You claim to have all the answers, but you don't have a clue what life is like for a college student in the local economy here. This isn't some fantasy world where you can go out and get three or four job offers in a single day, like I could have in the nineties, but then again, we don't have such a strong domestic leader instilling confidence in the population today.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[dorbie 0]

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, but then again, we don't have such a strong domestic leader instilling confidence in the population today.

In the economy? We seem to have enough people on the left trying to undermine any confidence that might exist. Economic growth has been very healthy for a prolonged period.