tkhayes 140 #101 May 31, 2004 and as well, we were 'killing Iraqi civilians' with the UN sanctions that were imposed over 10 years. No one could get food, health care, etc. While on the outside the effect seems to be the right thing to do, the sanctions only hurt the weakest people in Iraq, the ones we are trying to save supposedly. I still agree with sanctions, but we also must take steps to ensure they 'hurt' the right people. Dictators never go hungry, never run out of money and never are without security etc. even when we impose sanctions. Since they generally do not care abut their own populations, most sanctions become ineffective at forcing the country to comply with international wishes. Best intentions but not such a great outcome. TK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 140 #102 May 31, 2004 I will take 1000 less dead American soldiers over 10,000 less dead Iraqi civilians. My point is that even if we save 100,000 Iraqi lives, it simply is NOT justification for what we are doing. When governments are bad, people die and are mistreated, then they rise up and smite the leaders, - the American Revolution, the French Revolution, the Bolshevik uprisings, the Armenians, etc. History is full of it - maybe we should look at the numbers, pull out of Iraq and go to Central Africa where we will save many MORE lives - if that is your goal. How about this for a scenario? We tell Saudi Arabia that we are NOT going to buy any more of their oil until they clean up the middle east and this terrorism thing? We use our oil and Venezuelan oil and pay higher prices for it (funny we seem to be paying that now and for no good reason). Saudi Arabia loses billions and trillions of dollars per year. I think they would get off their ass and do something about it and we would not have to intervene at all - problem solved for us, no one dies at our end and we do not get accused by the world of being bullies. And the extra fuel cost probably runs less than the $200 billion dollars this war has cost us so far. Maybe then car makers actually get off their asses and start implementing some fuel-saving technologies that have been around for 20 years. TK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #103 May 31, 2004 Quote Yeah, but forgetting the politics, less dead Iraqis per annum is a good thing isn't it? Not if you continue to piss them off and they want to kill you!quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #104 May 31, 2004 It's a dumb concept - it is also one of the arguments for going to war that Tony Blair gave to the UK parliament on the eve of the invasion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #105 May 31, 2004 Quoteno CLEAR threat at the time Yeah.. Whatever... Until you are the one on the battlefield that rolls him over to get your "Intel" and a grenade blows up in your face... That is what these soldiers are dealing with.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #106 June 1, 2004 Quotesoldiers are supposed to be professionals.... They are professionals.. Professional killers... Get use to it... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #107 June 1, 2004 QuoteIf we were not in Iraq - we would have killed ZERO Iraqi civilians Sadham would have killed ten times as many as we have.. "Here is your sign" Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #108 June 1, 2004 QuotePersonally ...and I'll stand by this...thats not in any way the actions of a professional bunch of soldiers....no matter how much you try and dress ait up. You've never been a soldier in your life. What in the hell do you know about what being a professional soldier in combat means? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #109 June 1, 2004 Quote it simply is NOT justification for what we are doing. Apparently you are incorrect.. We ARE in Iraq.. And we ARE doing it.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #110 June 1, 2004 Thats a killer comeback! Are you in a debating society by any chance? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #111 June 1, 2004 Quote You've never been a soldier in your life. What in the hell do you know about what being a professional soldier in combat means? ok time to put an end to this reasoning that I've been hearing on here lately... so apparently you have to have been a soldier to criticize soldiers' actions. so if a surgeon screws up a normal operation on you and leaves you paralyzed, gee you can't say anything because you were never a surgeon. if a judge passes a anti-gun law, you can't say its wrong, because you aren't a judge. (this is a good one) none of you on here can criticize any president from the past, including clinton, bush, etc, because none of you have ever been a US president. people can discuss and disagree with what a soldier did EVEN if they weren't a soldier. I know that ticks off the soldiers here, but hey. MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #112 June 1, 2004 ARM CHAIR QUARTERBACK. People that criticize but never accomplish anything that is worth a damn in their own lives. Talkers not doers... Dime a dozen.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #113 June 1, 2004 Quoteso apparently you have to have been a soldier to criticize soldiers' actions. I don't think that you have to be a soldier to criticize a soldier's actions, but it would lend credibility to your argument. If you don't know what they've been through, what they saw, and their state of mind at the time, then you're really missing a big part of the picture. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,426 #114 June 1, 2004 >At the time we invaded Iraq Saddam was killing many times that > number of civilians a year. Isn't it better that significantly fewer > Iraqis are dying now per annum than before the war? Is this the new standard? As long as we are better than a ruthless dictator, things are good? "Yeah, I might have molested _one_ little kid, but I'm no Michael Jackson." "So I killed a guy. It's not like I'm Timothy McVeigh." "Yeah, I beat the crap out of that prisoner, but he might have _killed_ someone." Those are not the standards I use for the US. We are the most powerful country on the planet. We are not just a little better than Saddam Hussein, we are in a whole different league. And as such, we have a responsibility to lead by example. Usually we live up to that responsibility. When we don't, we should respond by fixing the problem rather than with excuses about how we're not quite as bad as one of the more evil leaders in the world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #115 June 1, 2004 Thats a laughable statement considering you dont have the slightest idea about who I am or know anything about my background Its also reflective of the 'know it all ' attitude that the US gets knocked for ...everytime ....in these circumstances. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
termsofuse 0 #116 June 1, 2004 Its war, people die, shit happens, some not so good, some not so bad.....deal with it or dont. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #117 June 1, 2004 It sounds like you have been watching too many gung ho movies..... Nobody is saying war is pretty....but try and be a little more specific with your comments....were not talking about a hill top charge in the pitch black...one man against an army or shit like that We are talking about 'professional' soldiers executing a injured man....when really it was not at all neceessary...and then treating the situation like a game. Thats not a deal with it or dont situation......thats a 'its wrong...' situation....it shouldnt have happened Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,426 #118 June 1, 2004 > Its war, people die, shit happens, some not so good, some not so >bad.....deal with it or dont. I think that if someone said the same about 9/11, you'd be pretty pissed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #119 June 1, 2004 QuoteWe are talking about 'professional' soldiers executing a injured man An injured man that seconds before was trying to kill all of them. Don't forget that. Its not like he was out for a stroll and they opened fire on him. Quotewhen really it was not at all neceessary How do you know what was neccissary? Where you there? Do you know he had no grenades of explosives on him? Do you know if he had a pistol...Cause I can't tell any of that from the video. How can you be so sure it was safe? Quoteand then treating the situation like a game. I see a bunch of guys that lived through a firefight being glad to be alive...I doubt any of them treated it like a game. Quoteit shouldnt have happened And you formed your "expert" opinion on what? An edited video clip from a news source? People like you don't lead the way, but they sure do slam the guys that do. "Chairborne Rangers...We don't lead the way, but we will tell you how it could have been done better, later, while we drink an ice cold coke at the computer!!!" There are two types of people...Those that do the dirty hard work...And Arm chair experts that pick on them."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #120 June 1, 2004 Quote> Its war, people die, shit happens, some not so good, some not so >bad.....deal with it or dont. I think that if someone said the same about 9/11, you'd be pretty pissed. Did I miss something? Did people in the Twin towers have weapons and were firing on the hijackers? Stupid comparison Bill. I understand 9/11....I would not be pissed. That does not mean that it was OK. But in their eyes it was OK. That difference of opinion will lead to many more dying."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #121 June 1, 2004 Quote Do you know he had no grenades of explosives on him?..... I agree. Some of us are forgetting what type of enemy our men and women are up against. These are the guys that like to kill Americans by blowing themselves up. When your opponent is down, you finish him off quickly before he gets you with his last trick.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,426 #122 June 1, 2004 >Did people in the Twin towers have weapons and were firing on the hijackers? Not at all. But they had declared war on us and we had tried to take them out. It's war, people die, shit happens. Deal with it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zoter 0 #123 June 1, 2004 Ron as per usual you represent the worst and sometimes the best of what your country has to offer. Although we cant see the before ....its very obvious in that video whats going on...very obvious.. There is no pistol...there is no magical crawl towards a rocket launcher .....its simply a critically injured man writhing around....and getting shot in the back. I dont see any Soldiers in his immediate vicinity being immediately threatned by him.....why didnt they leave him....let him fall into unconciousness...die...whatever.....nope...no questions....just firing...completely unjustified. Stop trying to justify it with ...well he could have done this...could have done that....you can clearly see the soldiers are behind a wall and as the camera pans are making no special efforts to 'protect' themselves from this 'potential threat'.... its a turkey shoot plain and simple.... and how you can interpret the holers and yells afterwards as anything other than...'yeah we got him...the writhing crawling man with his back to us'...is laudable. I'll suspect you disagree with the actions of your soldiers in the prison photographs....prob because the evidence is so damning....but wouldnt put it past you to try and justify it in your own eutopian fashion ...maybe they 'goaded' the prison soldiers in to making them pose that way ??? or maybe even asked to do it cause they were bored??? I dont agree with whatever that individual was trying to do to the US troops ....not at all.....and dont try and turn things around to suggest that i I think ts 'ok' for him to do that, and not face counter action.....but when hes's down ...hes's down Reverse the roles for a second.....US soldier down....writhing, crawling ....and shot in the back by Iraqui militia, who holer and yell 'God is great' or words to that effect with great joy as your man lies dead......now go away and figure out the headlines for that in the Tribune morning edition......'Execution' ? or 'Neutralising a threat' ?.......go figure it out Ron...when somethings wrong its wrong.....plain and simple Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zoter 0 #124 June 1, 2004 And what if he didnt have that grenade...ready to blow himself up? What ( like what is common)...he is blackmailed or bullied into taking up arms by the local militia...threatning him or his family if he doesnt at least take up arms againsty the 'infidels' And just maybe he's slightly more scared of the local militia than he is of the Coalition forces because they are not ther all the time 24/7....but the militia is.... He shoots...we shot back....(justifiable)....and then just maybe ....thats it.....until some laughing marine puts a slug in his back after he is already doen and probaly already bleeding to death... as he tries to crawl out of the open area.. If Im a local and I know the situation and I see that .......I aint exactly gonna be offering the coalition forces milk and cookies...... Not saying thats so...at all....but just maybe thats possible as well Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #125 June 1, 2004 QuoteWe are talking about 'professional' soldiers executing a injured man....when really it was not at all neceessary... We are talking about finishing a job. The injured man that wasn't necessary to kill as you say would kill a thousand Marines if given the chance.. Arm Chair Quarterback... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Next Page 5 of 11 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
billvon 2,426 #122 June 1, 2004 >Did people in the Twin towers have weapons and were firing on the hijackers? Not at all. But they had declared war on us and we had tried to take them out. It's war, people die, shit happens. Deal with it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #123 June 1, 2004 Ron as per usual you represent the worst and sometimes the best of what your country has to offer. Although we cant see the before ....its very obvious in that video whats going on...very obvious.. There is no pistol...there is no magical crawl towards a rocket launcher .....its simply a critically injured man writhing around....and getting shot in the back. I dont see any Soldiers in his immediate vicinity being immediately threatned by him.....why didnt they leave him....let him fall into unconciousness...die...whatever.....nope...no questions....just firing...completely unjustified. Stop trying to justify it with ...well he could have done this...could have done that....you can clearly see the soldiers are behind a wall and as the camera pans are making no special efforts to 'protect' themselves from this 'potential threat'.... its a turkey shoot plain and simple.... and how you can interpret the holers and yells afterwards as anything other than...'yeah we got him...the writhing crawling man with his back to us'...is laudable. I'll suspect you disagree with the actions of your soldiers in the prison photographs....prob because the evidence is so damning....but wouldnt put it past you to try and justify it in your own eutopian fashion ...maybe they 'goaded' the prison soldiers in to making them pose that way ??? or maybe even asked to do it cause they were bored??? I dont agree with whatever that individual was trying to do to the US troops ....not at all.....and dont try and turn things around to suggest that i I think ts 'ok' for him to do that, and not face counter action.....but when hes's down ...hes's down Reverse the roles for a second.....US soldier down....writhing, crawling ....and shot in the back by Iraqui militia, who holer and yell 'God is great' or words to that effect with great joy as your man lies dead......now go away and figure out the headlines for that in the Tribune morning edition......'Execution' ? or 'Neutralising a threat' ?.......go figure it out Ron...when somethings wrong its wrong.....plain and simple Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #124 June 1, 2004 And what if he didnt have that grenade...ready to blow himself up? What ( like what is common)...he is blackmailed or bullied into taking up arms by the local militia...threatning him or his family if he doesnt at least take up arms againsty the 'infidels' And just maybe he's slightly more scared of the local militia than he is of the Coalition forces because they are not ther all the time 24/7....but the militia is.... He shoots...we shot back....(justifiable)....and then just maybe ....thats it.....until some laughing marine puts a slug in his back after he is already doen and probaly already bleeding to death... as he tries to crawl out of the open area.. If Im a local and I know the situation and I see that .......I aint exactly gonna be offering the coalition forces milk and cookies...... Not saying thats so...at all....but just maybe thats possible as well Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #125 June 1, 2004 QuoteWe are talking about 'professional' soldiers executing a injured man....when really it was not at all neceessary... We are talking about finishing a job. The injured man that wasn't necessary to kill as you say would kill a thousand Marines if given the chance.. Arm Chair Quarterback... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
