Please explain this video to me

[Ron 7]

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So would you never dispute any president's policies?

Im not going to criticise these helicopter crew members who:

Were there at WAR.

Had been on mission to prevent an ARMS deal.

Saw what they though to be a WEAPON that could have killed them being held by a guy that was suspected of being an ARMS dealer in a WAR zone.

That had taken the time to get permission to engauge from their commander to shoot at a guy that held a WEAPON that could KILL them that was suspected of being involved in an ARMS deal in a WAR zone.

Get the gist?

But due to some nutbag putting it together like a "pop up video" with some cool music and some neat (And very wrong) pop ups...Suddenly people think that they are military analysts.

So yeah, I will talk about a persons policies...But I will try like hell not to talk out of my ASS when I do it...And when I do you are sure to jump on me for it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

Dude, trust me. If you start talking out of your ass, I'm definitely not going to jump on you. That kind of thing doesn't turn me on, unless you're a hot chick

[Darius11 12]

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Then what exactly the fuck is your beef?

Calm down Ron don’t want you to have a heart attack over a post on-line.

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If the helicopter crashed we would have seen images just like "Black Hawk Down"...And enemy is an enemy till they GIVE up.

Good too see that the possible scenarios that you have in your mind are from the movies.
Wow where have I been getting my facts all these years.

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Where you there? Were you underfire? Armchair Ranger is easy and fun when you are safe behind a computer.

No I was not there were you is that why you are so sure of everything Ron.
That’s the problem you automatically assume we never make mistakes and if we do who cares as long as none of us got killed. Sad

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Last I checked it was not cool to strap a bomb on yourself and kill INNOCENT people (Which BTW these folks were not innocent)...I also always thought that you were supposed to hop on jets and fly places, not use them to blow up buildings....Huh, I guess its never that simple is it?

According to ABC news they were Iraqi not from Afghanistan
So what the hell does this have to do with 9-11? So because of 9-11 we are allowed to kill any one who has Tan skin ok sorry your being logical as always I see.
Try to bring up relevant points please.

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What a load of Bullshit.

Anyone that raises a weapon against me, my family, my friends or my country IS an enemy in my eyes. Don't start nothing, won't be nothing.

You clearly don't have any loyalty to anything since you ran from your homeland and all you do is bitch about this one....Are you ever going to be happy anywhere?

I am very happy Ron. I have a great job great life all together thank you for your concern.

I do have loyalty but I am not blind. The reason this country is great is that you are allowed to questions things. If it really was don’t questions any thing we do and every thing we do is right no matter what. Then it wouldn’t be this great nation now would it.
In this particular case as I said I don’t know what I would do. But I had some questions.
I don’t like to make up my mind before knowing most of the facts. The only way you can get more facts is asking questions.

Unfortunately when people make up there mind or there mind is made up it doesn’t matter what the facts are. I am sure if it was a 12 year old Iraqi girl having an ice-cream you would say oh well she was at the wrong place at the wrong time. I hope I am wrong
I really do. I hope we all value all human life the same.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

If it makes any difference I didn't watch the video I read the report the quad posted from ABC. I don't like propaganda of any kind

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[metalslug 31]

This may be an interesting read for some.

It includes, amongst other things, a statement from Lt. General Robert Gard (US Army, retired):

"According to the pilot the Iraqi resistance fighter is wounded. Nevertheless, the instruction is to kill him. I think it would have made more sense much to arrest the wounded one, and interrogate him. But completely apart from that: the killing of a disabled, wounded opponent is forbidden. According to the Geneva convention, that’s murder."

In addition, Professor Stefan Oeter, a German expert in international law:

"International law sets that opposing combatants may be only fired at, so long as, how should I put this, are militarily active, and if they refrain from combat are required to be spared. Thus to that extent, the suspicion is that an offence against international law is present here, and serious offences against international law, against humanitarian international law, are war crimes."

And now, a new video perhaps, take a look at this.

Alrighty, now before Ron and others take a bite at my head; it is not my personal view that the killings are any great travesty. The South African army and it's Koevoet ally did a lot worse to their enemies during the Angolan conflict.

However, I am posting this support an opinion that has already been raised by others; that the US cannot present an image of righteousness to the world when incidents like these are recorded.
The Iraqis have unconventional Rules of Engagement, no argument there, and many may feel that this justifies the occasional bending of rules by Allied forces.
Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but folks shouldn't be making sanctimonious comments about it. The highlighted incidents are illegal killings in the opinion of at least two 'western' experts. Dont call a spade a shovel.

[SublimeBreeze 0]

I am going to have to agree with you here, From watching the video.. which btw I saw the none-edited version and what I have read. I think these well atleast the final iraqi was killed illegally.

One point I wanted to bring up is... they could have sent ground troops to help the wounded and keep as a POW. It seemed to me that it was just "easier" to kill him. They were in no direct threat and "taking too long to arrive" was obviously not an issue as the man was not going anywhere.

I question all the killing as explained earlier it is my right and my duty to review all the facts.

I just dont see how this man was a threat...

Maybe somebody could explain it.

Peace

Sean
Sean In Thailand

[bch7773 0]

that particular video makes me pretty angry, since some asshole just makes up most of that story. He makes up stuff, and its all designed to make people pissed off at the US army. i hope most people don't believe that BS, but they will.

but having seen the real video, i still can't figure out why the apache pilots thought it was necessary to finish off a wounded man. they can't claim it was self defence, since a guy crawling on the ground writhing can't do much harm to a helo.

imagine if there was a video of a US soldier with a m16 patrolling or something, and an iraqi shoots him with an ak47. the solder then drops his gun and starts to crawl away... are some of you saying you WOULDN'T be bothered if the iraqi then shot up the poor wounded soldier some more?!?

MB 3528, RB 1182

[Gawain 0]

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Then what exactly the fuck is your beef?

Calm down Ron don’t want you to have a heart attack over a post on-line.

I would like to have an emoticon for that!

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Ron 7]

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If the helicopter crashed we would have seen images just like "Black Hawk Down"...And enemy is an enemy till they GIVE up.

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Good too see that the possible scenarios that you have in your mind are from the movies.
Wow where have I been getting my facts all these years.

No, the sences in my mind are from:
The book "Black Hawk Down" which I had to read as instructed by my 1SG when I was active duty, and then made MY troopers read. News casts we watched while we recreated the entire mission from start to finish to find the errors so we could learn from it.

TALKING to friends of mine THAT WERE THERE. One of my friends was in the lost convoy and had an RPG bounce off the hood of his Humvee.

Plus I was 20 when it happened, so I remember the news footage.

You might find it interesting to know I do have the movie (Which BTW they were filming at a base I was stationed at one time), but never saw it until I was out...

So I didn't get my ideas from the movie.

Several Americasn have been butchered when they were un armed....Burg comes to my mind.

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No I was not there were you is that why you are so sure of everything Ron.
That’s the problem you automatically assume we never make mistakes and if we do who cares as long as none of us got killed. Sad

Nope I was not there, but I have more faith in the US than you do...You think we are all abunch of cold blooded killers, not a group of guys doing a job...a Job I might add that I bet none really wanted to do.

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According to ABC news they were Iraqi not from Afghanistan
So what the hell does this have to do with 9-11? So because of 9-11 we are allowed to kill any one who has Tan skin ok sorry your being logical as always I see.
Try to bring up relevant points please.

Huh, we are at WAR with Iraq...IRAQ. Also Iraqi's are kiling people with suicide bombs...

Try to stay with us here, I know you would love to defend them , and make us look bad, but you are going to have to try harder.

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Unfortunately when people make up there mind or there mind is made up it doesn’t matter what the facts are.

Unless they make their mind up using facts...you only seem to use the facts that support your position.

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I hope we all value all human life the same.

I value human life until they try to kill me....Then I still value it, but there is a job to do....Im not going to let people kill me just to value life.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

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Huh, we are at WAR with Iraq...IRAQ. Also Iraqi's are kiling people with suicide bombs...

We are? I thought we were freeing Iraq from the oppression of SH.....errr, I mean disarming Iraq's WMD.....errr, I mean, at war with terrorism.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"Huh, we are at WAR with Iraq...IRAQ."
Are you sure about that Ron?
Because I'm not sure that statement is correct, but I'm not really certain any more.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Ron 7]

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imagine if there was a video of a US soldier with a m16 patrolling or something, and an iraqi shoots him with an ak47. the solder then drops his gun and starts to crawl away... are some of you saying you WOULDN'T be bothered if the iraqi then shot up the poor wounded soldier some more?!?

I would have to venture that they would kill him anyway, and they would not give a shit what people thought..

OH yeah and then of course you would support him for doing it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Skyrad 0]

What amazes me is that there is so much fuss about this video and wether its a war crime... Not all that long ago we were all watching a AC130 killing a wounded man using about ten pieces of ordinance to do so while he crawled across the ground.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[crozby 0]

I admire the way that you guys can justify whatever your soldiers do, no matter how distasteful or against international law it may be.

Just curious: If after initially wounding the Iraqi who dropped the tube, the crew had landed the helecopter, fucked the dying guy up the arse, murdered him, pissed on his corpes and then flown off, how would you rationalise that?

[Skyrad 0]

No doubt just carrying out Rummys orders.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[DrunkMonkey 0]

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I admire the way that you guys can justify whatever your soldiers do, no matter how distasteful or against international law it may be.

..And how you ultra-liberal Europeans jump at every opportunity to shit on our servicemembers, despite the fact that we perform more humaitarian relief efforts than all the EU countries combined...

Have you ever worn your country's uniform? If not, you lack an admission ticket to this debate, mate.

Until you are looking down the business end of the rifle of some asshat who thinks that killing you will get him 72 virgins in the afterlife, STFU, Armchair General.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"Have you ever worn your country's uniform? If not, you lack an admission ticket to this debate, mate.
Until you are looking down the business end of some asshat who thinks that killing you will get him 72 virgins in the afterlife, STFU, Armchair General."

A fine example of free speech, open debate, and tolerance from the land of the free. An attitude I'm sure we can all aspire to.

Small wonder your country's actions attract international admiration and support.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Skyrad 0]

So to be willing to understand humanity and interpret international law first you must be able to kill without thought? And FYI Yes I have worn my country's uniform.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[DrunkMonkey 0]

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So to be willing to understand humanity and interpret international law first you must be able to kill without thought? And FYI Yes I have worn my country's uniform.

Rad, we've had this discussion before, mate... I know you've worn two of the MOD's "kits". I was not directing that at you.

I think that someone with no more knowledge of the military than some ultraliberal draft dodging college prof fills their head with has no real standing in a military debate.

Being in the military at least gives one the correct paradigm from which to analize these kinds of things. Lacking that, one runs the risk of sounding like a college freshman shouting what his uppers told him to at a rally...

To automatically assume that US mil are all mindless killers is not only insulting to US and UK forces, the ones who freed the world in WW2, but it is to also indict the MoD, as we are two sides of the same coin 99.9% of the time militarily... Hell, the MoD and the DoD are in lockstep with each other.

Besides, I love an attractive gal with a UK accent... Met one last summer... heheheh

[Skyrad 0]

Typical, Over sexed, Over paid and Over here!Some things never change

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[crozby 0]

Chill man, and re-read my post - I wasn't even having a pop at your servicemen, so that 'armchair general' line doesn't wash here.

It seems to me from posts here that some contributors can justify whatever their fellow countrymen do and I find that interesting.

From a foreigners point of view the contrast between the outrage shown by the U.S government for any action against US troops v.s. the ease with which any and all Iraqi deaths are excused sometimes gives the impression that a US life is considered to be worth so much more than an Iraqi life.

And that just seems an odd attiture for a God-fearing Christian nation to be giving off.

Wouldn't you agree?

[bch7773 0]

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imagine if there was a video of a US soldier with a m16 patrolling or something, and an iraqi shoots him with an ak47. the solder then drops his gun and starts to crawl away... are some of you saying you WOULDN'T be bothered if the iraqi then shot up the poor wounded soldier some more?!?

I would have to venture that they would kill him anyway, and they would not give a shit what people thought..

OH yeah and then of course you would support him for doing it.

ummm try READING my question instead of just attacking me... for one, where the hell did you get the idea i would support him?!?!?!? I'm the guy who is saying killing wounded men is wrong, no matter the nationality. YOU are the one who is supporting a killer-of-the-wounded.

here's the question again for those who say what the US helo did was correct:
if the roles were reversed, and that was a US soldier being killed by an iraqi while laying on the ground writhing in agony, you wouldn't be pissed off?

MB 3528, RB 1182

[Jimbo 0]

It's not about being pissed off, or not. It's about the rules of engagement and whether or not the action was reasonable at the time.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Ron 7]

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I admire the way that you guys can justify whatever your soldiers do, no matter how distasteful or against international law it may be.

And I admire how you armchair rangers can talk about ROE.

I also admire how you can turn on a country that more than once has gone above and beyond to save many other countries asses.

I don't hear you bitching about the US in WWII.

The simple fact is you will take whatever information YOU deem important. And YOU don't have a clue to the whole story, YOU are a perfect "chairborne ranger".

As for American GI's that break ROE, or kill for fun...I'd fry them just as fast as I'd drop an Iraqi with a SAM.

There is right, and there is wrong...Then there is your version which is what ever the US does is wrong.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Darius11 12]

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From a foreigners point of view the contrast between the outrage shown by the U.S government for any action against US troops v.s. the ease with which any and all Iraqi deaths are excused sometimes gives the impression that a US life is considered to be worth so much more than an Iraqi life.

And that just seems an odd attiture for a God-fearing Christian nation to be giving off.

Wouldn't you agree?

That’s exactly the problem No matter what we do. It is never wrong, But I promise you if for one second it was the other way around and a wounded American solder was killed as he was crawling in agony. Every one who right now says oh well big deal would be singing a different tune.

I have asked this many times from a few people I have had discussions with. Do you value all life the same? All say yes but only few mean what they say.

If I am wrong for believing doing on too others as I want done to me as the way we all should live then I like being wrong.

I like how if you disagree you automatically get generalized.
No I don’t think all our troops are cold hearted killers.
I feel the ones who are should be punished. The ones that torture prisoners should be punished and not by just losing there job and maybe going to prison for a year.
The few bad apples make all the hard working people we have in our armed forces look bad to the world. We need to discipline and take care of the few problems we do have before they cost us even more face. I rather speak the truth and see the problems then turn a blind eye until the problem hits me in the face.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain