Blame for abuses in Iraq

[billvon 2,471]

The right wing media has decided who to blame for abuses in Iraq. Is it a few US soldiers who went overboard, or a commander who pushed them too hard to get information out of prisoners, or a failure in the chain of command that extends from the GI's in the cells to Rumsfeld? Nope, the blame lies with women (especially feminists) muslims and left-wing academics. And it really isn't that bad; it's just some good old boys blowing off steam anyway. How reassuring that we don't have any problems in Iraq to fix; as long as they continue to bash women, minority religions and left-wingers, it will all sort itself out.

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"I mean, this is lesson, you know, one million and 47 on why women shouldn't be in the military. In addition to not being able to carry even a medium-sized backpack, women are too vicious." - Ann Coulter, from FOX
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"Some Arab commentators are repeating the myth that the West has, once again, humiliated Muslims. If there has been humiliation, it isn't the fault of the West. It is Muslims' fault." - Cal Thomas of FOX News
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"Increasing the quality of military recruits would probably help avoid future Abu Ghraibs. One constructive step toward that end would be for elite universities to drop antimilitary policies, so that the military would have an easier time signing up the best and brightest young Americans.

Many academic institutions have barred ROTC or military recruiters from campus for left-wing political reasons--first as a protest against the Vietnam War, and later over the Clinton-era 'don't ask, don't tell' law. Whatever the merits of these positions, it's time the academic left showed some patriotic responsibility and acknowledged that the defense of the country--which includes the defense of their own academic freedom--is more important than the issue du jour." - James Taranto, Wall Street Journal
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"This is no different than what happens at the skull and bones initiation and we're going to ruin people's lives over it and we're going to hamper our military effort, and then we are going to really hammer them because they had a good time. You know, these people are being fired at every day. I'm talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You of heard of need to blow some steam off?" - Rush Limbaugh

"Maybe the people who executed this pulled off a brilliant maneuver. Nobody got hurt. Nobody got physically injured. But boy there was a lot of humiliation of people who are trying to kill us -- in ways they hold dear. Sounds pretty effective to me if you look at us in the right context." - Rush Limbaugh

[Skyrad 0]

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women are too vicious." - Ann Coulter, from FOX

Never thought I'd see the day I'd agree with Ann Coulter!

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[quade 3]

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. . . women are too vicious." - Ann Coulter, from FOX

So, when she wrote this, she was looking in a mirror?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 3]

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"This is no different than what happens at the skull and bones initiation . . . " - Rush Limbaugh

Is he implying that the soldiers got the idea from GWB?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Skyrad 0]

I think part of the problem is the poor standard of training (if any) given to the interrogators and the reliance on 'civilian contractors' This article was in one of todays broadsheets.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1211374,00.html

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Beerlight 0]

Looks like the Senate Armed Services Committee is having a great time today (especially the Democrats) with questioning our CofC about prisoner "abuse".

A whole bunch of Monday morning quarterbacking going on with this issue. Fucking guys love jumping on a bandwagon and should wait until the investigation is completed not before.....


Buck

Edit: to remove something stupid I wrote. Thanks Wendy.

[wmw999 2,171]

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McCain and Ted Kennedy need some abuse....

I think John McCain can be considered experienced in the receipt of POW abuse.

The investigation should be allowed to proceed. But it absolutely cannot end up being a "boys will be boys" or a "girls will be girls" or a "just letting off steam" thing. Because then it becomes more acceptable to other people, too.

And then we end up being not the same people we'd like to be now.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[crapflinger2000 1]

This war is as much about muslim/arab/Iraqi perception of America and democracy as it is about killing the bad guys.

If we are there to make Iraq a bastion of democracy in a sea of extremism, why are we abusing the people in our custody? Yes, we have not killed anyone or shoved cattle-prods up people's asses, and on the scale of what constitutes "torture" this does not even register, I agree. But in the PR battle, it certainly does not make us or our brand of democracy look very good.

Similarly, should we really be using Saddams old palaces for military HQs and stuff?

We seem to be putting forth a "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" type of image over there.

Ironic that in an effort to bring democracy to a country our image in the arab world has apparantly NEVER been lower, or so I heard in some polls the arab media ran.

__________________________________________________
What would Vic Mackey do?

[Beerlight 0]

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If we are there to make Iraq a bastion of democracy in a sea of extremism, why are we abusing the people in our custody?

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No, we are there because the Iraqi's (ie. SH) never complied with the UN resolutions set forth after he ATTACKED Kuwait the first time around...

Similarly, should we really be using Saddams old palaces for military HQs and stuff?

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Yes.

We seem to be putting forth a "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" type of image over there.

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If they wouldn't have attacked Kuwait the first time around, we wouldn't be there today.

Ironic that in an effort to bring democracy to a country our image in the arab world has apparantly NEVER been lower, or so I heard in some polls the arab media ran.

Image hell. That place is a terroristic cesspool. Let's remember the big picture here. They (Iraq) have been at the forefront of running terror in the Middle East for many, many years. IMHO, I could care less about how they "view" things.

Again, UN resolution not met, we are there for that reason. Not any other. I'm sorry those prisoners were abused. Wasn't right. But to blame an entire chain of command because of a few soliders that probably haven't received much rest while they were worried about their own safety, is wrong.

Iraq = terror..... and will be the downfall of the world if it's not put to rest.

[crapflinger2000 1]

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If we are there to make Iraq a bastion of democracy in a sea of extremism, why are we abusing the people in our custody?

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No, we are there because the Iraqi's (ie. SH) never complied with the UN resolutions set forth after he ATTACKED Kuwait the first time around...

Similarly, should we really be using Saddams old palaces for military HQs and stuff?

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Yes.

We seem to be putting forth a "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" type of image over there.

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If they wouldn't have attacked Kuwait the first time around, we wouldn't be there today.

Ironic that in an effort to bring democracy to a country our image in the arab world has apparantly NEVER been lower, or so I heard in some polls the arab media ran.

Image hell. That place is a terroristic cesspool. Let's remember the big picture here. They (Iraq) have been at the forefront of running terror in the Middle East for many, many years. IMHO, I could care less about how they "view" things.

Again, UN resolution not met, we are there for that reason. Not any other. I'm sorry those prisoners were abused. Wasn't right. But to blame an entire chain of command because of a few soliders that probably haven't received much rest while they were worried about their own safety, is wrong.

Iraq = terror..... and will be the downfall of the world if it's not put to rest.

Your reply speaks for itself.

edited to add: by which I mean that we may as well be debating abortion, gun cntrl, or whatever. it's all what is ingrained in us.

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What would Vic Mackey do?

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[reply
Your reply speaks for itself.

Thanks.....

[Deuce 1]

Remember the psych experiment, at Stanford, I think, where a group of college students were put together in a room and left with only the instruction that a small number of them were "in charge" and the ones in charge ended up abusing the majority with no other instruction?

This is nothing new. Without thorough training and constant monitoring, it ALWAYS happens in detention facilities.

I have over three years experience working in a major County Jail. Things can get our of control very quickly when there aren't enough grown ups around.

[base283 0]

"If they wouldn't have attacked Kuwait the first time around, we wouldn't be there today."

From the Propaganda machines that I hear from this side: "Lateral drilling" from Kuwait to Iraq by many US and other countries Companies resulted in a drastic drop in the Iraqi Oil reservoir pressure. Then SH tried to stop it thru diplomacy and when that failed then he attacked Kuwait and this was the kicker for the Gulf war.
This is not my view necessarily but I would like you to respond to this.

"Image hell. That place is a terroristic cesspool. Let's remember the big picture here. They (Iraq) have been at the forefront of running terror in the Middle East for many, many years."

I am interested in your above statement. do you have any links to justify your statement?

"Again, UN resolution not met, we are there for that reason. Not any other."

Ok, the world is still waiting for the WMD´s. where are they at? How could they show proof of WMD´s if they didn´t have them (the logic train says)?

"Iraq = terror..... and will be the downfall of the world if it's not put to rest"

22.7m population/6.4bn world pop is equal to 0,03%

How does your math view this? How can this minority cause the downfall of the world?

I am Asking questions and relating to the Propaganda That I hear. I have no stance on anything, I am just a small mouse trapped inbetween 2 or more propaganda machines trying to figger it out meself.

Thanks in advance,
take care,
space

[SkyDekker 1,153]

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Remember the psych experiment, at Stanford, I think, where a group of college students were put together in a room and left with only the instruction that a small number of them were "in charge" and the ones in charge ended up abusing the majority with no other instruction?

This is nothing new. Without thorough training and constant monitoring, it ALWAYS happens in detention facilities.

I have over three years experience working in a major County Jail. Things can get our of control very quickly when there aren't enough grown ups around.

Words of wisdom.

Too bad that those overseeing the prison system in Iraq did not recognize this, even after they were told things were going wrong.

[base283 0]

I maybe understand the human characteristic of what you speak of. If this is "Normal" then why did they (US military) allow cameras? what ever happened to "outta site, outta mind"?
take care,
space

[rehmwa 2]

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If this is "Normal" then why did they (US military) allow cameras?

Likely a couple freeflyers in the room. Never go anywhere without a camera - force of habit.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kiltboy 0]

Hi Deuce,

Reference training etc. and the Stanford Experiment how does the monitoring work? With regard to the US are there outside agenicies or staff from other prisons taking a walkthrough in a peer review type deal? I'm curious as one of the identified reservists was reported as having 6 years experience as a corrections officer.
I was wondering what would have had a better result for monitoring. Would it be an outside agency i.e. Red Cross, peer pressure from another US MP battalion that was coming from another prison, or maybe MPs from the UK, Italian or Polish contingents.
David

[billvon 2,471]

>We seem to be putting forth a "meet the new boss, same as the old
> boss" type of image over there.

Yep. That song seems especially applicable to Iraqis nowadays:

We'll be fighting in the streets
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone
And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgement of all wrong
They decide and the shotgun sings the song

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again

The change, it had to come
We knew it all along
We were liberated from the fold, that's all
And the world looks just the same
And history ain't changed
'Cause the banners, they are flown in the next war

I'll move myself and my family aside
If we happen to be left half alive
I'll get all my papers and smile at the sky
Though I know that the hypnotized never lie

There's nothing in the streets
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Is now parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss

[billvon 2,471]

>Without thorough training and constant monitoring, it ALWAYS
>happens in detention facilities.

Yep. Which is why I find it a bit hard to believe that "it's just a few bad apples," and as long as we make an example of the people in the pictures it will all be fixed. We need to make sure that whatever failure that allowed such a system to run without supervision gets fixed, too.

[PhillyKev 0]

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They (Iraq) have been at the forefront of running terror in the Middle East for many, many years.

Actually, Hussein was just about the only leader over there to keep the terrorists in check. Prior to our invasion, there weren't any terrorist attacks inside Iraq that I recall. The same can't be said for any of the other countries in the region.

[Casurf1978 0]

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They (Iraq) have been at the forefront of running terror in the Middle East for many, many years.

You mean Saudi Arabia not Iraq. Intresting read into the Saudi's and how money is funneled through "legit" causes into terrorist orgs.
http://govt-aff.senate.gov/_files/073103emerson.pdf

[Beerlight 0]

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I am interested in your above statement. do you have any links to justify your statement?

Nope, no specific links. Maybe I can find it in the same links that said that Kuwait/US were "lateral drilling?"

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Ok, the world is still waiting for the WMD´s. where are they at? How could they show proof of WMD´s if they didn´t have them (the logic train says)?

Oh comeone now, do you really believe there were NO WMD's in Iraq?!! Seriously, he gassed how many Iranians and Kurds? I guess those weren't WMD"s?

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22.7m population/6.4bn world pop is equal to 0,03%
How does your math view this? How can this minority cause the downfall of the world?

Kinda like OBL can, eh? Takes very few freaks out there to change the course of something, don't you think? Method used against USS Cole?

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I am Asking questions and relating to the Propaganda That I hear. I have no stance on anything, I am just a small mouse trapped inbetween 2 or more propaganda machines trying to figger it out meself.

And I appreciate your questions!

Buck

[Beerlight 0]

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They (Iraq) have been at the forefront of running terror in the Middle East for many, many years.

Actually, Hussein was just about the only leader over there to keep the terrorists in check. Prior to our invasion, there weren't any terrorist attacks inside Iraq that I recall. The same can't be said for any of the other countries in the region.

Iraq did the invading, the US and coalition did the responding (Gulf War I).

And sure SH kept things in check. Go against him and what did you get??? Firing squad.
What a great "society" that was to live under.

Look, it's simple. Everybody is totally entitled to THEIR OPINION. In my first post in this thread, it is/was my opinion.

Thanks,

Buck

[bodypilot90 0]

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Actually, Hussein was just about the only leader over there to keep the terrorists in check. Prior to our invasion, there weren't any terrorist attacks inside Iraq that I recall. The same can't be said for any of the other countries in the region.

they just trained for export, I posted some sat pics while back.

[Deuce 1]

I wonder.

I doubt very many folks enlist in the army to "linen exchange" which is where the inmates turn in thier soiled clothed and bedding for clean laundry.

Likewise supervision of the feeding and bathing. Honestly, I would only sign up for that duty for about $300,000, tax free and with a pre-signed presidential pardon and amnesty.

I think dishonorable discharges are enough for the enlisted folks. For the leadership there might be the need for some brig time.

As to the guy who worked corrections in Georgia or wherever, he was in a distant land and obviously thought the rules had changed. Part of the problem of having and "enemy" is that they remain the "enemy" once you've captured them. Does the enemy deserve clean clothes? Fresh food?

When I wore a uniform I used to hear "You wouldn't be such a badass if you weren't wearing that badge" My usual reply would be "Dude, I wouldn't be in your company if I wasn't wearing this badge" but the feeling is sort of a universal one. The POW's without their guns aren't so tough. A week before they may have induced terror to a soldier in a firefight, and may have caused death and mayhem by rifle and knife.

It takes tremendous discipline to face that same enemy when he's naked and blindfolded and NOT say "You're not so tough now, are you! This one is for !" Whap!

It does happen. I interviewed a cop killer. I got through it by telling the inmate I wanted an excuse to kill him, and that there were 20 deputies in the booking area that wanted to help. I told him exacty what he had to do to keep me from having to lay a single finger on him and he complied.

I don't know how I'd get through that if I couldn't understand a word the guy was saying. What to do when the guy doesn't understand "Shut the fuck up!".

As to the pictures, they are proof that the soldiers didn't think they were doing anything wrong, that, at least, there was valid rationalization for it. That's weird, huh? But I know it's true.