Blame for abuses in Iraq

[quade 3]

Actually, with Reno -- yes -- at least for Waco. Ruby Ridge was a tactical situation so, there's nothing she could have done there, but Waco was, in my opinion a botched long term op.

I had a job at the time in which I watched the satellite downlink - a LOT. I actually watched the fire from start to finish live via satellite.

It should not have taken a rocket scientist to figure out that place was likely to go up in flames if even the slightest amount of heat was given to the kindling. Even if the the people inside set the fires, the buildings should never have been rammed to inject the gas. The Branch Dividians were on the verge of running out of food and water as it was -- it would have only been a matter of time and there was no urgent reason to press the issue.

Slightly different circumstance than this though.

Were the Waco deaths more serious than this Iraq situ? Hmmm, not in -my- opinion and here's my line of reasoning.

In reality, even though we pressed the issue in Waco, it really was the Branch Dividians that started the fires. Further, they had the option of giving up at any point in time -- including after the fires started. Some did, most didn't and more is the pity.

In Iraq however, there simply was no chance whatsoever for the detainees to remove themselves from the situation at all. They had no protective status whatsoever.

Further, when you march into a country under false pretense and then switch stories that you're there to liberate them from the horrors of the previous dictator . . . it behooves you not to act like the previous dictator.

BTW, I'm NOT call for GWBs resignation over this. Rumsfeld maybe -- that's yet to be seen, but it certainly looks like he's been sitting on this either trying to cover it up or just hoping it would go away.

I am calling for everyone to VOTE in November -- Pro or Anti whatever. If you don't vote, then STFU!

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Actually, with Reno -- yes -- at least for Waco. Ruby Ridge was a tactical situation so, there's nothing she could have done there, but Waco was, in my opinion a botched long term op.

Isn't the issue with Rumsfeld his judgement and leadership? Are you seriously saying you don't think Reno was informed about the tactical situation at Ruby Ridge? I think she was and I think any charges of lack of leadership leveled at Rummy could equally have been leveled at Reno.

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It should not have taken a rocket scientist to figure out that place was likely to go up in flames if even the slightest amount of heat was given to the kindling. Even if the the people inside set the fires, the buildings should never have been rammed to inject the gas. The Branch Dividians were on the verge of running out of food and water as it was -- it would have only been a matter of time and there was no urgent reason to press the issue.

Yep, agreed.

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Slightly different circumstance than this though.

Were the Waco deaths more serious than this Iraq situ? Hmmm, not in -my- opinion and here's my line of reasoning.

In reality, even though we pressed the issue in Waco, it really was the Branch Dividians that started the fires. Further, they had the option of giving up at any point in time -- including after the fires started. Some did, most didn't and more is the pity.

In Iraq however, there simply was no chance whatsoever for the detainees to remove themselves from the situation at all. They had no protective status whatsoever.

But isn't the issue still purported lack of leadership and the hypocracy by some who are now calling for Rummy to resign but were silent about Reno and Waco? Do you see a difference between mentally abusing terrorists, criminals, and left overs of Saddams Army, perhaps for intel purposes, and poor judgement which lead to the deaths of over 80 mostly innocent Americans?

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Further, when you march into a country under false pretense and then switch stories that you're there to liberate them from the horrors of the previous dictator . . . it behooves you not to act like the previous dictator.

Agreed. I think a motivating factor may have been frustration over the inability to locate WMDs. This could explain the heavy-handedness.

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BTW, I'm NOT call for GWBs resignation over this. Rumsfeld maybe -- that's yet to be seen, but it certainly looks like he's been sitting on this either trying to cover it up or just hoping it would go away.

We don't know that yet. If it turns out to be true, I still don't see how anyone who wasn't calling for Reno's resignation can, with any intellectual honesty call for Rummys and visa versa.

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I am calling for everyone to VOTE in November -- Pro or Anti whatever. If you don't vote, then STFU!

100% Agreed.

[quade 3]

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Isn't the issue with Rumsfeld his judgement and leadership? Are you seriously saying you don't think Reno was informed about the tactical situation at Ruby Ridge? I think she was and I think any charges of lack of leadership leveled at Rummy could equally have been leveled at Reno.

Again, Ruby Ridge was a tactical situation. A situation where things happened very quickly over the course of a few minutes. There is no possible way that Reno said anything along the lines of "We gotta get him right now, this very minute. Yeah, go ahead and shoot the dog". Just didn't happen. -Couldn't- have happened. She simply could not have set a policy that would have resulted in the Ruby Ridge situation. There simply wasn't time.

And that's really where the line gets draw on responsibility going up to the top. The top -may- not, in fact, have control of a tactical situation, but by the definition of their jobs they are absolutely responsible for anything strategic -- any long term policy for dealing with a situation.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,471]

>He did accept responsibility, but the guilt lies with the offenders
>themselves.

So you don't believe him when he says he is responsible?

>There is no right wing flip-flop here.

So should we condemn someone who admits to war crimes? If you can answer yes or no I will believe that you have not flip-flopped. If you give some answer about how "only if his last name starts with a K and he actually pulled the trigger then lied about it" then it's just another right-wing flip-flop that happens whenever their latest smear runs smack into the harsh light of reality. Like the man once said:

"We are all capable of believing things which we know to be untrue, and then, when we are finally proved wrong, impudently twisting the facts so as to show that we were right. Intellectually, it is possible to carry on this process for an indefinite time: the only check on it is that sooner or later a false belief bumps up against solid reality, usually on a battlefield."

You just ran into solid reality. Soldiers - even good ones - see war crimes. If someone who worked in one of those prisons came home tomorrow, he might give a speech exactly like Kerry's. And if he was a republican, great - he'd be a heroic soldier. But if he was a democrat, you'd smear him from here to next week.

>I stand by my assertions as to the true reason for the hullaballoo from the left.

The reason for the hullaballoo is the rape, torture and murder of Iraqi civilians. They raped children. We have the video. That's reality, and it's not a political game.

[Gravitymaster 0]

I think your memory regarding the timeline at Ruby Ridge is a bit hazy. Weavers son and dog were shot on Aug. 21. His wife was shot the next day.

http://www.stormfront.org/ruby.htm

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The report noted, "We have been told by observers on the scene that law enforcement personnel made statements that the matter would be handled quickly and that the situation would be 'taken down hard and fast.' " The FBI issued Rules of Engagement that declared that its snipers "can and should" use deadly force against armed males outside the cabin.

The report noted that a member of an FBI SWAT team from Denver "remembered the Rules of Engagement as 'if you see 'em, shoot 'em.' " The task force report noted, "since those Rules which contained 'should' remained in force at the crisis scene for days after the August 22 shooting, it is inconceivable to us that FBI Headquarters remained ignorant of the exact wording of the Rules of Engagement during that entire period."

The report concluded that the FBI Rules of Engagement at Ruby Ridge flagrantly violated the U.S. Constitution: "The Constitution allows no person to become 'fair game' for deadly force without law enforcement evaluating the threat that person poses, even when, as occurred here, the evaluation must be made in a split second." The report portrays the rules of engagement as practically a license to kill: "The Constitution places the decision on whether to use deadly force on the individual agent; the Rules attempted to usurp this responsibility."

FBI headquarters rejected an initial operation plan because there was no provision to even attempt to negotiate the surrender of the suspects. The plan was revised to include a negotiation provision -- but subsequent FBI action made that provision a nullity. FBI snipers took their positions around the Weaver cabin a few minutes after 5 p.m. on Aug. 22. Within an hour, every adult in the cabin was either dead or severely wounded -- even though they had not fired a shot at any FBI agent.

I'd hardly explain this away by claiming things happened very fast.

In addition, the FBI taunted Weaver about his wifes death during the seige. I find this type of action despicable.

Edited to add: Everything about the federal government's actions in this case is sickening, but possibly the worst was their taunting of the Weaver family after Vicki Weaver's murder: "Good morning, Mrs. Weaver. We had pancakes for breakfast. What did you have?" That was one of the FBI's tactics revealed in court records, reported by Jerry Seper in the Washington Times in September 1993.

[Scratch 0]

Interesting reading this thread but I do not see anyone here asking the right questions. For a bunch of skydivers you guys suck at analysing the chain of events. I'll give it a go and then you can take shots at my logic.

First some background.
Q. What causes ordinary people to do inhuman things?
A. Hate

Q. What causes hate?
A. Fear

Q. How do you combat fear?
A. Aggression.

These are primal traits of the human animal.

So what has this got to do with prisoner abuse.
It is quite simple, those MP's/Soldiers are scared out of their minds and needed a release.

The US went to war in Iraq quite prepared and able to win the ground. They also went to war wholly incapable of holding it. Quite simply they are under trained and under staffed for the job at hand.
The Bush administration relied on far too many variables to fall into place for success to be guaranteed. The 'skyhook' of their logic is that the US would be welcomed with open arms as liberators.
This has not happened and nor will it ever happen.
There is simply too much general suspicion in the middle east of American motives for this to be the case. There is also a complete lack of trust in the American political system. By definition there can be a new guy at the top every four years and definitely every eight. You cannot logically expect the people of Iraq to make what is to them a generations long commitment to a power which is potentially so 'here today, gone tomorrow'.

Right, so the background is set.
The US has far too few boots on the ground in a land which is very hostile towards them. The people in those boots know very well that they are too few.
Believe me when I tell you that a rifle feels about as useful as a toothpick when you are confronted by an angry mob. You want buddies, lots and lots of buddies.
So the boots are afraid and they react to that fear by being aggressive. Round them all up, cuff them and hood them and throw them in jail. This is all quite understandable, there is actually very little choice.
These prisoners then get taken to facilities which are even more understaffed.
That prison staff feels the anger and hate surrounding them. The rifle has gone from a toothpick to a piece of gum. How do they react?
Aggression and hate in return. Crush and dominate the prisoners. Teach them fear and cow them into submission. The only way the prison guards will feel remotely safe is if they can erase the fear inside of themselves by removing it's sourse.
The result is abuse. Stupid, disgusting and very natural.

So the way I see the chain is like so.

The US went to war unprepared for all eventualities.
Why?.....ask the generals.
Now historically generals never, ever have enough personnel so why are they now understaffed?
I would guess that it was probably 'career limiting' to make too much noise about numbers to their bosses. I will wager my rig on the fact that the words "Make do with X00 000 troops or we will find someone who will" were uttered in the Pentagon or White house somewhere along the line.

The responsibility for the situation lies with the people who created the situation, not with those who 'made do' or with those who are at the sharp end simply being human beings.
It stops with the Secretary of defence and the CiC. The political and civilian masters of the US war machine.

Ok I will shut up now.

[Erroll 52]

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>He did accept responsibility, but the guilt lies with the offenders
>themselves.

So you don't believe him when he says he is responsible?

Responsibility is not synonymous with culpability.

It did happen during his watch. He knows that it happened, we know that it happened, and he knows that we know. Now it is up to him to fix it and to ensure that it never happens again. If it does, he should be forced to resign. His successor should then not have the benefit of more than one strike before he too is out.

[nigel99 151]

http://www.occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=3841

Seems to me like "sleep deprivation" is another nice term like collatoral damage - hiding what really goes on.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Skyrad 0]

I think the list of those is to blame but it ends up in one place, someone has to go....................

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/stevebell/0,7371,1214128,00.html

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[livendive 8]

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But isn't the issue still purported lack of leadership and the hypocracy by some who are now calling for Rummy to resign but were silent about Reno and Waco?

I was pretty vocal that Reno should resign over Waco. I do not have enough information to say whether Rumsfeld should resign over this, but I guess I'm in the "probably" camp. Given my lack of knowledge on Rumsfeld's role, all I can say with certainty is that it will hurt us less for him to resign while not specifically guilty than for him to stay in office if he did foster the culture that triggered this. The administration has plenty of qualified individuals to choose from who can walk into the SecDef office as an improvement over their predecessor.

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Do you see a difference between mentally abusing terrorists, criminals, and left overs of Saddams Army, perhaps for intel purposes, and poor judgement which lead to the deaths of over 80 mostly innocent Americans?

First of all, why are you limiting it to "mental" abuse? I thought we were talking about mental, physical, and sexual abuse. Additionally, why are you limiting the victims to "terrorists, criminals, and left overs of Saddams Army"? The ICRC has reported that up to 90 percent of Iraqis held by U.S. and allied troops have been arrested by mistake.

In any case, the root cause poor judgement that put us in position to carry out this abuse has led to the deaths of over 700 mostly innocent Americans and thousands of mostly innocent Iraqi civilians.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[PhillyKev 0]

Here's one man's opinion on where the blame lies.

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Asked directly in "your own soldier's language" what had caused the abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison, once the feared symbol of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s dictatorial rule, U.S. Army Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba recited a litany of ills.


"Failure in leadership, sir, from the brigade commander on down, lack of discipline, no training whatsoever and no supervision. Supervisory omission was rampant," Taguba, the author of a Pentagon (news - web sites) report on the abuse, told the latest Senate hearing on the scandal, which has drawn worldwide outrage.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=615&e=1&u=/nm/20040511/pl_nm/iraq_abuse_congress_dc

[chuckbrown 0]

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Here's one man's opinion on where the blame lies.

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Asked directly in "your own soldier's language" what had caused the abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison, once the feared symbol of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s dictatorial rule, U.S. Army Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba recited a litany of ills.


"Failure in leadership, sir, from the brigade commander on down, lack of discipline, no training whatsoever and no supervision. Supervisory omission was rampant," Taguba, the author of a Pentagon (news - web sites) report on the abuse, told the latest Senate hearing on the scandal, which has drawn worldwide outrage.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=615&e=1&u=/nm/20040511/pl_nm/iraq_abuse_congress_dc

Seems to get Rummy off the hook. Next someone'll be saying Taguba is an Army toadie.

[livendive 8]

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Here's one man's opinion on where the blame lies.

A more disturbing quote from him:

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Taguba testified that he had not read the Red Cross report, but agreed with its finding that the abuse was systemic. He said he was told that some inmates were moved around to avoid visits by Red Cross officials.

That last sentence, if true, is potentially more damning than the photographs we've seen.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[billvon 2,471]

>Here's one man's opinion on where the blame lies.

I thought the original post made it clear where the blame lies. Women, feminists, liberals and muslims.

[chuckbrown 0]

My bad. Thanks for the correction.

[PhillyKev 0]

The results of the torture.....

Al Qaeda's leader in Iraq (news - web sites) beheaded an American civilian and vowed more killings in revenge for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners, an Islamist Web site said Tuesday.

After one of the masked men read out a statement, they pushed Berg to the floor and shouted "God is greatest" above his screams as one of them sawed his head off with a large knife then held it aloft for the camera.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20040511/ts_nm/iraq_usa_beheading_dc

Fucking animals.

[wmw999 2,169]

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The results of the torture

[sarcasm] No, it gives us a good justification for going in a taking out more of those bastards, and teaching them a lesson once and for all[/sarcasm]

Just like it works in Israel

Violence begets violence. Saying "they started it" about the world trade center doesn't explain Iraq; only Afghanistan. That had a clear cause. Iraq was a preemptive strike, with devastating consequences.

War is not glorious. It brings out the worst in most people, not the best. And we do do the same because they did it first, well, then we've just generated another first for them to do it after.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[livendive 8]

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Here's the Red Cross report:

http://online.wsj.com/documents/wsj-ICRC_report050904.pdf (someone else who's smarter than me can make it clicky)



And in case anyone is getting the impression that the Red Cross was reporting abuses to the US and the US wasn't responding to these reports, take note of the date of the Red Cross report (February 2004). The US Army's criminal investigation of the prison abuses began in January 2004. Before the Red Cross report even came out.

I'm not a Wall Street Journal subscriber, so I had to read the Red Cross report here, but I'll assume it's an exact copy of the link you provided. On page 4, you'll read:

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Since the beginning of the conflict, the ICRC has regularly brought its concerns to the attention of the CF [Coalition Forces]. The observations in the present report are consistent with those made earlier on several occasions orally and in writing to the CF throughout 2003.

And on page 9:

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The ICRC has raised this issue repeatedly with the detaining authorities since March 2003, including at the highest level of the CF in August 2003.

According to this article, the Red Cross

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made at least 29 visits to 14 separate Iraqi detention sites between March and October 2003, each time complaining in person and in writing to Coalition authority and military leaders.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[chuckbrown 0]

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Fucking animals.

Animals are better than these fucking creeps.

[Gawain 0]

Regardless of where the blame leads, one thing it is time to do is to stop apologizing for it. We've (Bush, Rumsfeld et al) expressed concisely how terrible these events are, and how sorry we are for the victims, and for the breakdown in overall management, from top-to-bottom at that prison.

Interestingly, al-Sadr has rejected our apology (f*ck him anyway) and his staff has said that anyone that captures a female coalition soldier may keep them as a slave.

If the rest of the world hasn't figured out that we mean what we say, then the problem is no longer ours. The press is going to cover this like white-on-rice up through the courtmartial hearings and sentencing. Politically, there is nothing more that can really be done.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[livendive 8]

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If the rest of the world hasn't figured out that we mean what we say, then the problem is no longer ours.

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"The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons . . . We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas . . . We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We're concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVS for missions targeting the United States . . . The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. Saddam Hussein has held numerous meetings with Iraqi nuclear scientists, a group he calls his "nuclear mujahideen" - his nuclear holy warriors. Satellite photographs reveal that Iraq is rebuilding facilities at sites that have been part of its nuclear program in the past. Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons."
George W. Bush, 10/7/02

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"The area in the south and the west and the north that coalition forces control is substantial. It happens not to be the area where weapons of mass destruction were dispersed. We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat."
Donald Rumsfeld, 3/30/03

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"We do know that the Geneva Convention makes it illegal for prisoners of war to be shown and pictured and humiliated. And it's something that the United States does not do."
Donald Rumsfeld, 3/23/03

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"I expect the POWs to be treated humanely, just like we're treating the prisoners that we have captured humanely. If not, the people who mistreat the prisoners will be treated as war criminals."
George W. Bush, 3/23/03

Hmm...I wonder where the rest of the world got the idea we might not mean what we say.

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"What you have is your credibility, and that is the only thing that gives people and governments traction."
Donald Rumsfeld, 4/10/02

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[kallend 1,679]

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Fact: the USA is embarrassed by the apparent cover up (the administration has known since January).

Personally, I don't blame them for covering it up. As long as steps were being taken to make sure it doesn't happen anymore, I would have been happy if it had stayed out of the public light. However, it probably took the public outcry to get them to take firmer action.

Rather like My Lai? One of the principal authors of the (failed) cover up of the My Lai massacre was one Major Colin Powell.

They managed to find a junior officer to be the scapegoat for My Lai. This time it looks like enlisteds will take the fall.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[boudy 0]

The prison scandal will cause enormous political and tactical damage but you can't blame this grotesque murder on it.

It might be different if someone else did it. But since when does Al Qaeda need a reason for savagely killing Westerners - particularly Americans? Any excuse, or no excuse at all will do. They revel in it .

This is just a ruthless, opportunistic attempt to capitalize on the sullied & weakened image of American military efforts. I'm horrified and very sorry for this man and his family. But brutality of this sort ultimately will backfire on Al Qeada & other insurgents & re-energize pro-war sentiments.

[PhillyKev 0]

I was referring to cutting his head off with a knife and posting it on a website. We all know they Al Queda are cowardly murderers. But this specific act was done to focus attention on the prison abuse scandal.

[Gawain 0]

We meant every word of those bits. Regardless of intent/accuracy that we are now facing in circumstance.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!