Non rigger rigging poll

[Ninjagecko 0]

I've been wondering what is the general consensus in the various countries of what a non rigger can do to their own gear before getting slapped and why? After bringing this up in a group, it turned out that people had vastly different opinions (multinational group with different types of licenses). On one side, some want everything to be done by a rigger and know very little about their equipment and don't want to know more. On the other, some do most everything but patches and lines by themselves.
NOTE: This is meant as a poll about mains, not the reserve or harness/container system.

Please comment on what is used by your license system/country, thanks!

• Quote

[Joellercoaster 6]

FWIW, all of the above except the last one ("do whatever you want") seem fine to me.

For example I'd definitely get a rigger to do a reline.

Hooking up risers though? C'mon. Admittedly the last couple I have actually gotten a qualified person to do, but that is entirely out of laziness disguised as sensible caution.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[councilman24 36]

Of course in the U.S. the only thing a non rigger, and then only the next person to jump it, can do is pack the main. Maintenance requires a rigger. Some argue assembly isn't maintenance. I'll leave that for another thread.

IN PRACTICE, because there is no documentation required by the rigger on what is done on a main there can never be any enforcement unless the FAA inspector is standing there watching.

When I started in 1978 everybody did most everything. With gear more complex and sensitive to what is done I don't recommend anything on the list unless the jumper has discussed it with an experienced rigger or at least an experienced jumper and knows what to look out for. I've seen ALL of the listed things done wrong.

Wrong material used for main loops. Loops wrong length.

Mains attached to risers backwards - one after two non-riggers took 1 hour checking the line rotation but never looked to past the toggles, and didn't want any help. Mains on risers attached to harnesses backwards more than once. And three rings rigged wrong by people without training are not rare.
Slinks attached by riggers wrong, let alone jumpers.

And dbag, pc, bridle compatibility really up for grabs.

Can experienced jumpers know and do all these things? Sure. Did I? Sure. Should they now? As a FAA DPRE I can't say they should, but I want jumpers to know how to do all this so they can inspect what they're rigger does. Or their non-rigger team mate who says "Give it here, I'll do it."

I say experienced rigger above because any rigger coming out of a senior rigger oral and practical, and especially those coming out of short courses, have a license to learn. No one can learn or teach everything that can be done wrong or everything that can be seen in the field. That's one reason the PIA symposium is so valuable. It gives riggers a chance to learn from a multitude of folks. After going to 11 out of 13 Symposia and the last Rigger Conference in 1989 I still get surprised and there is a lot of gear I'm not familiar with just because I'm not asked to work on it.

I know in some some individuals, some dzs, and some countries don't want non-riggers to have anything to do with anything besides packing, and a lot of folks don't even want to bother knowing that. One long time jumper never wanted to know how to hook up a three ring. Some folks just don't want the responsibility even for themselves.

Of course I'm the type that want to know as much as I can about anything I'm doing. That's partly why I became a rigger. And with three rigs at $15 a 60 day repack the $150, 3 year rigger course was cost effective.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[mathrick 2]

DK has a handy system in place for these things. Our rigging qualifications go like this:

• Packer - can pack mains, attach 3-rings after a cutaway, change pre-made loops and teach basic packing. Required for any active licensed jumper. Obtained by doing 20 supervised (by a packer or higher) packjobs + 5 exam packs by senior packer or higher (those include untangling non-cut mains, cut mains, pre-jump inspection of creatively misassembled rigs and teaching others).


• Senior packer - can attach risers, PCs/D-bags/bridles, make closing loops, teach more advanced elements of packer education and supervise exams for packers. Required for class I instructors (essentially S&TA). Obtained after at least 2 years as a packer + course.


• Reserve packer - can pack (but not inspect) reserves, extend senior packer certificates. 1 year as a senior packer, apprenticeship and exam.


• Rigger - can inspect and assembly reserves, modify gear other than essential parts of the reserve system or critical parts of the harness, teach senior and reserve packers. 1 year as a reserve packer, apprenticeship and exam.


• Master rigger - can do anything, including manufacturing all gear (within the relevant TSOs of course), teach riggers. 2 years as a rigger, apprenticeship and exam.

Admittedly it's a very extensive system, but on the upside it makes it clear who can do what, and equally importantly, whom to ask when in doubt. It also ensures that every licensed jumper has at least a basic understanding of the gear involved.

"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

Interesting. I do like how everything is clearly defined.

However, you say a reserve packer can "pack (but not inspect) reserves."

How is that done?

Here in the US, an inspection is an essential part of a reserve pack.

Not trying to be snarky or argumentative, just curious how it's done.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[mathrick 2]

wolfriverjoe

However, you say a reserve packer can "pack (but not inspect) reserves."

How is that done?

Here in the US, an inspection is an essential part of a reserve pack.

That's only an educated guess, but I imagine it's one of two things: field repacks after a ride, and given that reserve packers are generally on their way to being riggers, you do it while apprenticing for a rigger and thus still can serve as time saving labour in their workshop without being able to do a full inspection.

Edit: actually, I managed to mislead myself and you by being sloppy with my translation. What the rules reserve for riggers+ is the yearly control of airworthiness for gear, not ordinary inspections you do during repack. Note also that controls under Danish rules are more stringent than in many other places, with mains also being effectively a TSO'd component (unlike in the US) and thus subject to inspection. The data card is also more involved, with a card for the whole rig (defined by the harness), plus an extra card for each of reserve, main and AAD (required for everyone).

And a fun fact: one requirement for the MR level I didn't copy over from the official rulebook is "access to a properly equipped workshop". Really :)

"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

[angryelf 0]

Per the FAA a Senior Rigger is supposed to have access to a climate controlled parachute facility with packing tables. While my "loft" doesn't have tables, it has a dehumidifier and air conditioner. that being said, the only rounds I have repacked have been for equipment drops or for non personnel "test" drops.

What constitutes a table? can I secure the apex and risers of a canopy? Yes. Do I have a raised platform to pack a reserve? No.

I for one really like the DK standard of qualification. It's pretty straightforward.

"access to a properly equipped workshop" seems like a copy and paste. Which happen...
-Harry

"Sometimes you eat the bar,
and well-sometimes the bar eats you..."

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

What constitutes a table?

According to FAR Part 65.127;

(a) A smooth top table at least three feet wide by 40 feet long.

Derek V

[gowlerk 1,923]

Hooknswoop

Quote

What constitutes a table?

According to FAR Part 65.127;

(a) A smooth top table at least three feet wide by 40 feet long.

Derek V

That only gives 2 dimensions of what is a 3 dimensional object. Therefore I assume your table could on the floor.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[mathrick 2]

Good to know FAA also defines this requirement. I find it perfectly sensible, just amusing. However, what do you mean by a copy and paste?

"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

Hooknswoop wrote:
Quote:
What constitutes a table?

According to FAR Part 65.127;

(a) A smooth top table at least three feet wide by 40 feet long.

Derek V

That only gives 2 dimensions of what is a 3 dimensional object. Therefore I assume your table could on the floor.

The specs used to say at least 36" X 36" X 40' long.

The floor is not acceptable to the FAA. I already asked years ago.

ta·ble
ˈtābəl/Submit
noun
1.
a piece of furniture with a flat top and one or more legs, providing a level surface on which objects may be placed, and that can be used for such purposes as eating, writing, working, or playing games.

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[peek 20]

gowlerk

Therefore I assume your table could on the floor.

I think most reasonable people would think so. There is so much about regulations that need interpretation, and one needs to think about why things were required when the the regulations were written long ago, and why the interpretation could be "loosened up" a bit in current times.

I'm rather sure that when the FAA decided that a "table" was required, that what they really intended is that someone not just throw down a reserve parachute in the dirt, the sand, or a dirty hangar floor.

The carpeted floor of a hangar or your home is certainly a proper place to pack a parachute (as long as it is clean.) If anyone finds an FAA Inspector that tries to complain about the lack of an actual "table", (other than perhaps in a parachute "loft" or business), that the Inspector needs a bit of remedial training to help them with their interpretations.

Someone mentioned a "climate controlled environment". I think there that the intent was that it is probably not a good idea to pack a reserve in a little shack in the jungle with 99 percent humidity, not really requiring an actual climate controlled environment. Once again, intent and interpretation.

Many of the regulations were written long ago, when skydiving and civilian parachute rigging was crude. Our most crude operations today are probably pretty good compared to when some of these regulations were written.

[mark 102]

masterrigger1

The specs used to say at least 36" X 36" X 40' long.

2 Federal Register page 2028 (Thursday, September 30, 1937) calls for a smooth tabletop at least 36" x 40'. No mention of height. I couldn't find any references earlier than that.

Also, no mention of height in the later references I have.

Mark