Is my Wing Loading gonna kill me?

[jbanning 0]

One more piece of the puzzle I did not mention is that I am at a very small DZ and most of the time the landing area is not too crowded, besides I have no fear of landing out away and taking long walk back, and remeber it is a 190sq ft. diablo not a 120!

[brettski74 0]

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WL does not kill, bad decisions do.

True, but a higher WL will probably mean you're going that much faster when you make the bad decision. A lower wing loading may help turn a fatality into a few months off, a fracture into a sprain, or a sprain into a bruised ego.

[brettski74 0]

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I KNOW NEARLY NOTHING ABOUT SKYDIVING

You have one fifth the number of jumps as me and I still consider myself a newbie. It's good that you recognise that you don't know much, but even when you think you're starting to know a few things, you probably still don't know as much as you think you do, or you'll forget it in a pinch. Pain and white-knuckle fear are great teachers that will help you never forget, but there are more pleasant ways to learn that are less likely to hurt or kill you if you take your time.

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I know wing loading isn't 100% of the equation for success or failure while learning to pilot a canopy, but from what I've read and heard, it is one of the biggest factors.

According to PD, wing loading is the biggest determinant of speed of the canopy. Other design factors will affect things like turn rate, glide angle, etc. All of these will affect your likelihood of safely landing the canopy in a pinch, but the faster you're going when you make that mistake, the more it's going to hurt.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I am usually accurate within 50 feet.

What are the outs (or the chance of landing off) like at Santa Barbara? 50ft accuracy, while the standard for getting the A, is not great if you or someone in your group spots badly. A bigger canopy is slower, makes it easier to hit that small target.

And would you say the winds are generally blowing in the 10+ range? I trained at Monterey, another coastal DZ, and it generally was the case that we were at the borderline for student jumps. That meant that I rarely did a low wind landing and the ground speed was typically slow. This can mask some of the speed issues with a higher windloading. I had a bit of an adjustment going to inland DZs where I was coming in a lot faster than I was used to.

[PhreeZone 15]

Just since your normal DZ is small does not mean that you will not travel and go to a busier DZ at some point. Having a canopy that you are willing to fly under any traffic conditions should always be the goal. Flying a canopy beyond what the conditions allow is usually a situation that ends up putting you behind the curve and can lead to injuring yourself.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[diablopilot 2]

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no one on the internet knows you, or your skill level so i recommend listening to your instructors, coaches, and mentors in this sport when it comes to canopy safety.

His instructors have advised that his skill level is sufficient to fly the canopy mentioned. This sport is full of chance and risk, ultimately Scott will have to make a decision based on his comfort since as mentioned he does now have an A licence.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Scrumpot 1]

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So I've pretty much made up my mind that I'm gonna go back to the 190 and work on becoming comfortable with ALL of the maneuvers and modes of flight billvon suggested. When I feel I can do all of them safely and confidently at relatively low altitude, then I will "reward" myself with downsizing.

So, what all is exactly so terribly wrong with flying a 190 at say 1.1-1.2 for a while anyway? Seriously. Does it really truly so totally, totally suck all that bad (really) in the 1st place?

Think about 1st any (relevant) reasonings you may want to even downsize in the 1st place. At only 25 jumps now, - if you agree with Bill Von's list (as you've already said you do), then you don't even have enough jumps TOTAL under your belt, to have even completed attempt #1 on each of those maneuvers, let alone having "mastered" any of them.

Just another angle "food for thought" is all.

There are lots of pressures (peer and otherwise) to quickly downsize in this sport. But in the end analysis - for you - is it really worth it?

You'll have plenty of time to progress (ie: downsize if you want to) - If you allow yourself that time, that is. Lots and lots (unfortunately ) in here do not end up allowing themselves that time. You've shown inkling of being a bit smarter than that already though. Hope you can maintain that level of true courage, and restraint.

Do what is right, for you.
Hope this helps.

Blue Skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[PWScottIV 0]

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What are the outs (or the chance of landing off) like at Santa Barbara?

I guess it depends which direction and how far off... Honestly I haven't actually walked in the locations that I would probably need to land in, but in studying satellite images, it looks like there are many outs... Obviously they could be full of ditches, boulders, and fences, but that's pretty difficult to determine for sure ahead of time unless someone was to actually checked them out first hand. I haven't needed to land off before, and yes, that's one of the reasons I'm here asking for people's opinions. I know I haven't experienced the things that kill, I haven't been closer than 100feet to another flying canopy, I've never landed off, I've never had a mal, I've never had severe turbulence near the ground, I've never needed to do a low turn, etc, etc...

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50ft accuracy, while the standard for getting the A, is not great if you or someone in your group spots badly.

I know, and although I still need A LOT more experience to reliably land with high accuracy, I've recently been able to get much closer than 50 feet... Sometimes needing to correct a couple of feet so I don't actually hit the flag when I touch down... It's not been like that every time by far, but I seem to be improving.

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And would you say the winds are generally blowing in the 10+ range? I trained at Monterey, another coastal DZ, and it generally was the case that we were at the borderline for student jumps. That meant that I rarely did a low wind landing and the ground speed was typically slow. This can mask some of the speed issues with a higher windloading. I had a bit of an adjustment going to inland DZs where I was coming in a lot faster than I was used to.

I've jumped a pretty large range since I started jumping the 190... Everything from about 18 to maybe -5 (downwind). I've had to run out a few landings in no wind, and the times I did it, I feel I was able do so safely. The only downwind landing I had I opted to PLF, partially because I was going to touch down in a small gully...

So with that said I know my landing experience is extremely limited. I know I could get totally hose myself on the spot and then end up in a field full of barbwire, boulders, foxholes, and a tree-line that's creating turbulence... How will I perform then? Will I break something, Will I paralyze myself? Without having experienced things like that first hand it's impossible for me to know. That's why I'm trying to get as much information about the decisions I need to make, so I can do my best to keep myself and others safe.

Gravity Waits for No One.

[PWScottIV 0]

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There are lots of pressures (peer and otherwise) to quickly downsize in this sport. But in the end analysis - for you - is it really worth it?

That's what I'm trying to determine. If the whole death and dismemberment thing wasn't such an obvious risk, then I'd strap on a VX-39 and base jump off my roof with the fucker. Like I said earlier, for me, I think my best approach to the situation will be to go back to the 190, work on the aforementioned skills, and then go back down when I feel I can handle things such as avoiding another canopy. At my DZ it's not gonna be much of a risk, because it's pretty small... But If I decide to jump at Perris during a boogie, then I could become a serious risk to myself and others. For myself, I'd like to at least begin getting comfortable with the skills that could save my life someday, and as others' have mentioned, doing so with a larger canopy might be more productive.

Gravity Waits for No One.

[jbanning 0]

I absolutley understand that, our landing area is allso much smaller than other DZ's also. I do not plan on down izing for many years besides i have been losing weight and my wingloading is closer to 1.0

[phoenixlpr 0]

Yet another student on a Diablo. eh

[feuergnom 22]

loading a diablo even close to wl 1 is not a good idea. is there any chance to change your wing?

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[damion75 0]

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I know, I have not pulled down tha toggles more than a few inches, not counting on flaring. I have been pulling @ 5000' with a very stable body position and i am flying it very conservatively!

If you are into flying conservatively (a good idea!) then why not have a conservative canopy? It is less likely to hurt you...

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[caspar 0]

maybe im a pussy but theres no way in hell id jump a diablo at the moment.

to the OP, i forced myself to stay on a WL of 1 until 100 jumps to a WL of 1.1ish if that helps. stay on one canopy and reallise how much you can squeeze out of canopy the more you learn how it flies. thats a rush in itself.

the odd downwind landing used to hurt, alot. recently i had a fast downwind off landing with lots of dangers nearby. i loved the landing. im sure i wouldnt be saying that if id downsized [which i think i could handle when landing normally on the LZ].

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."

[dragon2 0]

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I know, I have not pulled down tha toggles more than a few inches, not counting on flaring. I have been pulling @ 5000' with a very stable body position and i am flying it very conservatively!

And there is the problem right there! You need to fly the canopy using all it's got, otherwise you will not know what it is capable of and how to prevent situations you cannot get out of in time. Fly the damn canopy or get another; it can seriously hurt you when something unexpected happens and you DO pull on a toggle real hard.

Flying a canopy using just a few inches of toggle is not gonna teach you anything.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[udder 0]

Im from Aus, hee every man and his dog loads at 1.2 off student status, and some at 1.4 with less than fifty jumps.

Lots of people are doing it and not dying. Canopies dont magically hook you in...

"In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E

[popsjumper 2]

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So I've pretty much made up my mind that I'm gonna go back to the 190 and work on becoming comfortable with ALL of the maneuvers and modes of flight billvon suggested. When I feel I can do all of them safely and confidently at relatively low altitude, then I will "reward" myself with downsizing. Like I've said a bunch of times above, I don't want to die or get seriously injured, I'm skydiving because it's fun and I'd like to keep it that way.

WooooHoooo!
I love it when common sense prevails!
Good stuff, dude.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[jbanning 0]

I only have 3 jumps on it, on my last jump i did bury one side and it spun and dove like a bastard, I am making some jumps this weekend, probably some hop-n-pops from 5500' to work on canopy control! I understand the danger and I have great respect for the canopy!

[caspar 0]

damn, you have a WL of 1.09 at 15 jumps too?!

i wouldnt jump with you if i knew that purely because id wonder what other bad decisions you'd make and would be too wary.

i hope it works out ok for you though.

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Im from Aus, hee every man and his dog loads at 1.2 off student status, and some at 1.4 with less than fifty jumps.

Lots of people are doing it and not dying. Canopies dont magically hook you in...

Everyone makes mistakes by learning how to fly. WL might make a difference between a torn trousers, scratches and an open fracture.

You will not believe that can happen to you unless it happens one day.

Broken wings heal long.

[DougH 270]

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I have great respect for the canopy!

If you respected it you wouldn't be flying it. I would wager that what you think is respect, is really just flying scared. It is bad enough to be flying a canopy you aren't ready for, but personally I think it is even worse if you are scared of it.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[billvon 2,435]

>Canopies dont magically hook you in...

That's right. People hook themselves in. And when a new jumper gets on a 1.4 to 1 wing loading that he's flying very carefully, and someone cuts him off, he does the only thing he knows how to do - toggle turns. And his canopy does exactly what he is telling it to do, and hooks him into the ground.

Big canopies don't make perfect people safer. Big canopies do make real people's mistakes survivable.

[Fast 0]

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>Canopies dont magically hook you in...

That's right. People hook themselves in. And when a new jumper gets on a 1.4 to 1 wing loading that he's flying very carefully, and someone cuts him off, he does the only thing he knows how to do - toggle turns. And his canopy does exactly what he is telling it to do, and hooks him into the ground.

Big canopies don't make perfect people safer. Big canopies do make real people's mistakes survivable.

I agree with this quite a bit. I have made my fair share of mistakes this year and not being on a tiny canopy like some of the other people I know with less experience has saved my ass.

I still jump a 139 @ 1200 jumps. I wish people would stop pushing new skydivers to downsize. The best one that I heard this fall was "My old rig weighed too much and since I downsized my wingloading didn't change that much anyways, I'll be fine." Heh, yeah,.. good idea, downsize right as we go into the off season. I hate when people do that too.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[dharma1976 0]

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>I still jump a 139 @ 1200 jumps. I wish people would stop pushing new skydivers to downsize. The best one that I heard this fall was "My old rig weighed too much and since I downsized my wingloading didn't change that much anyways, I'll be fine." Heh, yeah,.. good idea, downsize right as we go into the off season. I hate when people do that too.

thats how I did myself

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

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[MagicGuy 0]

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I have 15 jumps total and the last 3 are on a diablo 190 with a wing loading of 1.1. As far as what I have heard about triathalons is that they are a very stable canopy. My Diablo is EXTREMELY toggle sensitive and somewhat eliptical compared to my Icon student rig, but I take that into account, I have been pulling high and stable and I have a wide approach on landing with no sharp turns. As long as you feel comfortable and on-heading on deployment and not trying to swoop in you should be fine......(just the opinion of another newbie in a comparable situation)

Geez, this seems like more of an issue to me than a 1.26 wingloading on a Triathlon. Seriously, I would reconsider that canopy for something more docile. I have heard more terror stories about Diablos than almost anything else.

I have a Triathlon 160 that I load at about .9 and it's pretty forgiving. Very stable in turbulence and for a new jumper, it has treated me VERY well. 1.26 seems a bit high for your jump numbers, but taking into account the fact that it's a Triathlon, it doesn't seem so dramatic. Still, talk some more with your instructors and see what they recommend. They are the only ones who have seen you fly and land your current canopies, and therefore are the ones to determine whether or not you will be OK on the Tri.

And of course, YOU are responsible for yourself, so if you don't feel comfortable, stick with the Pilot. I've never jumped a Pilot, but from what I've seen, they have A LOT more glide than a Triathlon, so take that into account when you decide to jump the Tri ;)