lazerq3 0 #26 August 10, 2001 QuoteThat cool crisp air just feels so good on my... well, you know!!!Thats ok go ahead and say it......toes right? I love that feeling too,, especaily on my BIG toe!!!!!! uuuuuhh toes that is!jasonA-38658 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BenW 0 #27 August 10, 2001 Carrie,Are Kaz and Mike still up at the Ranch working??Ben. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #28 August 10, 2001 yup, we used to jump together in NY... our camera guy broke his Femur last year and she filmed us at Nationals... she is excellent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #29 August 10, 2001 I'm not Carrie, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night (not really).... last I heard they were up there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #30 August 10, 2001 watch the toggle inputs. Toggle turns do not recover as fast as front riser approaches. If you want to perform a high performance landing, perfect the front riser turn. If you prefer the safer method of landing anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhi 24 #31 August 10, 2001 A HARD toggle turn basically stalls that side of the canopy causing the opposite side to fly forward creating the turn. A riser turn pulls the leading edge of the "wing" down so it's flying down and into the altered relative wind. The key word is flying, i.e. creating lift. If you riser turn, you may, depending on altitude, be able to counter with toggles. If you toggle turn, all you can do is wait for the whole wing to start flying again...and pray. Sounds like everyone is talking about a good progression. Front riser from straight in, 45 deg, 90 deg, and 180 deg turns. And remember, the low altitude hook turn record can never be broken, only tied. Less than 24 till the weekend, baby!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #32 August 10, 2001 yup, that's why front risers are better for a high performance landing, toggles are better for EMT rides. I was replying to Clay who is using 180 toggle hooks, which IMHO are not teh way to learn to swoop.... double front risers straight in, then start with the turns safst way to learn.dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AirMan 0 #33 August 10, 2001 HMmmmm, I know a woman who does AWESOME Swoops and Turf-Surfs...but then she has around 6,300 skydives!But, it's true, you don't see too many ladies swooping, unless it's into a formation in free-fall. To all the potential female canopy swoopers, I say GO FOR IT!...w/ caution. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #34 August 10, 2001 BenW,Kaz and Mike have been working at The Ranch for a few months now but they have not been a couple for even longer than that. They are friends. So Weid, ha ha ha, it's highly unlikely they were staying at the Holiday Inn ExpressIf you are the team I am thinking of, then I remember when Kaz went to N.Y. to film a 4-way team in competition. Is it a 4-way team you are on? I work for a skydiver who has his own publishing company and he put a picture of Kaz in a sit-fly on the cover of our book. HA HA HA .CHICKS CAN SWOOP. Watch out boys, Brigitte Liss is only the beginning. Girls are just smart and take their time before trying to learn how instead of hormone'ing their way into it too early like most guys.Much love and blue skies,Carrie http://www.geocities.com/skydivegrl20/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #35 August 10, 2001 Yup that was us, she came up in September, then went to Nationals with us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BenW 0 #36 August 10, 2001 Carrie,Kaz filmed our Brit 4 way at SDB in January (Tanya, Al, Chuckles and myself. The swoop she did at the end of the video was truly *awesome*. Pretty good at the old pictures too!!!Ben Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iflyme 0 #37 August 10, 2001 Quoteflip a coin as to which is more dangerous really. Well at 100 jumps, I'm certainly no expert, but I agree totally with Grogs -- if you are doing a high performance landing, do it with your front risers, not your toggles! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #38 August 10, 2001 "do it with your front risers, not your toggles!"- IflymeI'm there with ya. You can recover much faster and your canopy is a heck of a lot more controllable with risers. I quite normally end up riding the front risers straight for a little ways before I let up to flare. Every once in a while I get crazy enough (like last weekend) that I come out of a one riser turn at about 10 ft or less ( usually scares me) then get a nice long swoop. I dont fly a particularly fast canopy so I have to get a little crazy to make it really swoop. Yes, it's very addictive.A straight in final seems pretty boring after you just ripped a good swoop the jump before. "I used to know a girl...She had two pirced nipples and a black tattoo"-EverclearClay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DZBone 0 #39 August 10, 2001 Quoteif you are doing a high performance landing, do it with your front risers, not your toggles!Right, I thought we had all agreed that radical toggle turns are old-school and dangerous.But, I'm no expert. I spent exactly one day with Jim Slaton and his boyz learning this stuff. Most of the time, I was like "huh?", but we did spend some time going through the aerodynamics of performance canopy flight on the ground. Two things that stuck with me: toggle turns steal performance, which means they steal speed and maneuverability. Also, that a big loser is flow separation, which is just what it sounds like. When doing a radical turn, or getting into turbulence, the smooth airflow over the top of the canopy breaks, which reduces lift, causes drag, etc. It sounds like aerodynamic stall, actually. So, doing a snap toggle turn into a swoop sucks in multiple ways. It kills your lift by separating the flow and deforming the wing, and it reduces your ability to maneuver.The better approach is to do smooth, carving, front riser approaches to build up speed and therefore lift, and then use the toggles to flatten out and then to flare at the end. In canopies with a negative recovery arc, I have heard that a toggle snap is an efficient way to transition from the dive to the surf, but I don't really know for sure.Like I said, I can write all this pretty easy, but translating that to actual swoops is still something I'm working on. Some feedback from SM1 and you other experts would be appreciated. I'd rather not continue on under false pretenses or bad interpretations of stuff I heard once while drinking from a firehose.By the way, the $200 for a day of five filmed and critiqued landings, ground school, etc. with Perris Evolution is highly worth it! Whatever your level, they will do the right thing for you. Very cool guys, very good instructors, and awesome canopy pilots! Carl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Staso 0 #40 August 10, 2001 mbolism said:> Another good point, I have a huge amount of upper body strength and I can barely, and I mean barely > front riser turn! I lifted weights 5 or 6 days a week for three years and it's still almost impossible for > me to do.5 or 6 days a week is way too much ! you muscules don't have time to recuperate and to grow. youmust be constanlty tired. try to work out 4 days a week and your front risers turns will greatly improve !!! :)stanc-31743 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stacy 0 #41 August 10, 2001 FEMUR... I thought that was just a favorite randoms drill that you guys had? =c) Or it will be when Capricious creates enough randoms to get to "U".....Stacyhttp://astro.temple.edu/~sweeks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stacy 0 #42 August 11, 2001 We have an instructor at Cross Keys who could swoop with the best of 'em. She's amazing, takes 16+ tandems a day, shoots incredible video, does AFF, and swoops like a pro. Go Ellen!!!Stacyhttp://astro.temple.edu/~sweeks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stacy 0 #43 August 11, 2001 We have an instructor at Cross Keys who could swoop with the best of 'em. She's amazing, takes 16+ tandems a day, shoots incredible video, does AFF, and swoops like a pro. Go Ellen!!!And Grogs, lets keep my swoop pic quiet. =c)Stacyhttp://astro.temple.edu/~sweeks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #44 August 11, 2001 As has already been stated, front riser turns decrease the angle of attack of the canopy(wing), thereby allowing the canopy to go much faster(reduce lift, reduce drag).. As a result, the canopy dives and causes a lot of altitude loss.....BUT, it IS FLYING.. With a toggle turn, you are just destroying lift on the side of the canopy that is pulled down.. For the toggles(at least the side that you pulled down) to regain effectiveness, it has to regain its shape and resume producing lift.. Lets keep it simple.. Lift=good.. No lift=bad.. Want to do "safe"(if such a thing exists) low turns, use front risers - keep the canopy producing lift..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phastasphuk 0 #45 August 11, 2001 QuoteWith a toggle turn, you are just destroying lift on the side of the canopy that is pulled down.. For the toggles(at least the side that you pulled down) to regain effectiveness, it has to regain its shape and resume producing lift..Actually, when you pull a toggle down, you increase lift on that side, but when you increase the lift you also increase the drag of the canopy on that side, and that makes it turn. The more you pull on the toggles, the more lift and drag you will get at the expense of airspeed. And when you run out of sufficient airspeed to keep the canopy flying, you will lose lift. That hurts.Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, safe swoops.... chris"but hunny, I'll be away from my chute 5 weeks too..." -chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jessica 0 #46 August 11, 2001 This is such a great thread!! I've learned more about canopy control and characteristics from this discussion than I think I knew in a whole year of jumping. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mbolism 0 #47 August 13, 2001 Jessica- I totally agree... I told my boyfriend how many views and responses I had to this post and he said that I must've hit on a hot topic!!! Thanks everybody for the input! I did 7 jumps over the weekend (only 1 on Sunday because of the stupid weather!!!!) All were fun and I really got the hang of the front risers vs. toggle turns, etc.... UP HIGH of course! I told you guys I'd play it safe! I did the little low s-turns in and picked up a little speed...on a couple I had to run them in at full speed though! At least I was on my feet! More in my quest to swoop next week..P.S. I think I'm gonna' get a Mirage! those who fear nothing may not live...those who fear everything may never live. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mbolism 0 #48 August 13, 2001 Jessica- I totally agree... I told my boyfriend how many views and responses I had to this post and he said that I must've hit on a hot topic!!! Thanks everybody for the input! I did 7 jumps over the weekend (only 1 on Sunday because of the stupid weather!!!!) All were fun and I really got the hang of the front risers vs. toggle turns, etc.... UP HIGH of course! I told you guys I'd play it safe! I did the little low s-turns in and picked up a little speed...on a couple I had to run them in at full speed though! At least I was on my feet! More in my quest to swoop next week..P.S. I think I'm gonna' get a Mirage! those who fear nothing may not live...those who fear everything may never live. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
