airann 1 #1 November 28, 2001 Coach jumps?In the begining... we used to help each other. ... Thats how I got to be where I am. People would jump with me and we both worked on things. We ALL improved that way. Now I do the same for others. We 'share the love' or we pass it on. Now... almost that very thing costs me $75. or $65 or so with a wink and dont tell anyone. These days around here we have to pay for help. If your buddy helps you and the word gets out about 'the help' your buddy gets asked to stop due to the cut back in the coaches business. Another thing is- one coach is not headdown stable. Seriously, he can SIT. IMO- that shouldnt be a 'coach'. Even if the cost is slot and a pack -no video. I supose thats fine if you both agree. But the student wouldnt know this bit of info.I feel the situation with coaching jumps in my area is incredibly out of hand. Others in the region seem to agree about the Houston coach jumps. I am not sure about anything. This I do know- once one person started coach jumping for fee - it mushroomed into a cottage business. Everyone is -giving or getting- coach jumps. Mostly the whole thing makes me sick.Certainly, some of the indiviuals who are charging for coach jumps are either in it for the free jump or to further their own agenda in some way. Some are worth it. There are some in Dallas who jump for a slot and a pack... But, are worth the $75. Some in San Marcus just want to help and do it just about free, I am told.I am not saying coach jumps are bad. I have done 2 coach jumps at Spaceland and they were good jumps. The videos are bad ass. It is this extreme that we have reached here where every time I sit down its coach this and coach that...Whats next... 8 person SCR's...... cha cha ching... $144. ...???????????Skydive~Friends~HappinessAirAnnhttp://www.AirAnn.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #2 November 28, 2001 QuoteWhats next... 8 person SCR's...... cha cha ching... $144. ...???????????Hmmmm..... You may be onto something there. Seriously though, everything has its place. I'm not opposed to coaching conceptually. I'm having a lot of trouble thinking of any sport where paid coaching doesn't exist. Example. I played competetive golf and spent a pretty good chunk of change getting professional coaching. Usually we'd talk a little bit about how things were going, where my problem areas were and then he'd take a look at my swing to try and spot problem areas and give me practice tips. From there I would practice & play and maybe a month later see him again -- earlier if everything went to hell in a handbasket.So coaching by someone who has a really good eye, a proven track record of getting results and a good repertoire of tips is a very valuable thing. I certainly wouldn't hesitate to pay for something like that. But it wasn't a regular thing unless I was really in competition mode. It was sort of a deal where you went for help when everything you tried, and what everyone you knew suggested didn't work.Trust me, when my friends & I would play, we would often trade tips -- a lot of times tips that our coaches gave us -- and nobody, coaches included, thought anything of it. That was just sort of the way it worked.So to extend that to skydiving. I think there is a place for friends offering their help & advice and a place for professional coaches to offer their insights to help you get past a problem or take your skills to another level. They can coexist."Wear the grudge like a crown. Desperate to control. Unable to forgive. And we're sinking deeper." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lazerq3 0 #3 November 28, 2001 75$ for a coach jump!!!!!!!!! YIKES!!!!! is that with rental gear????? I know at our DZ coach jumps are only 20$!!!I'll tell you what though I agree with evrything you say. Although I am VERY new to this sport, I do see where one can be takin advantage of if there not familar with the way something works. I also no that if/when I become good to the point where I may be able to help someone, I'll be damed if some one is going to tell me to "please stop helping out cause your not helping our caoching program out any". F- YOU !!!!! If someone asked me a question I'll try to answer it and if someone said "hey can we jump together so I can work on something" lets go. I think thats complete bullshit that a DZO would say something like that to someone (to please not help so much) I think I would be inclined not to jump there any more.Luckily we have a pretty good DZ in the sence that if I have a question I feel I can ask anyone there and get a good answer without feeling like I need to tip someone.I even had a freeflier once offer out of the blue to vidoe me doing a sitfly at our other DZ across the lake. I told him I was just starting to learn and was not very good at it and he said yeah,,,,thats ok lets go have fun!!!!!! ITs things like that that make me wanna jump there again!!!!jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #4 November 28, 2001 I tell you what, IF I could afford it, I would get some coached jumps. I need them, badly. My sit fly is crazy fast and I can't do much with it, standing is even worst. I haven't even gotten to the point where I can point my head towards the ground. As for RW, I need coaching there too, though I was very surprised (very happily surprised) when I went to Spaceland to jump and Scotty gave the dz.com people free coached dives. I don't know him that well and I don't know if that was a special thing or what, but I learned a whole lot in just a few jumps, that is for sure. That, however, is the skydiving community acted at the DZ where I "grew up." The experienced guys would take low jump guys out and jump with them. Do 2-ways, 3-ways and the occasional 4-way (we only had a C-182), teaching and having a hell of a lotta fun along the way. Once I get enough experience under my belt (maybe another 100 jumps or so, who knows) I plan to help out low timers as much as I can. Personally I think that is what the sport is all about. The community.AggieDave '02-------------Blue Skies and Gig'em Ags!BTHO t.u. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airann 1 #5 November 28, 2001 QuoteI think there is a place for friends offering their help & advice and a place for professional coaches to offer their insights to help you get past a problem or take your skills to another level. They can coexist.Oh, I agree.But that is not happening. I have paid for the coach jumps - and I have had months and months of my buddies informal help. We dont even call it help - we call it the next jump.Example: ...on the this next jump we are going to try this....What really upsets me is that newbies at the DZ's lately are getting offered some coaching for large fees. Thats fine if that is what they want to do and can afford it. Experienced skydivers offer their help to newbies and get asked not to 'offer their assistance' by these coaches? I have noticed this trend for a while. I have soured on the 'coach jump' idea for now. I will rather just do the 'next jump' idea. ...And call it a FUN jump. (and I will email you the frreeeakin video! -if you want it.)better yet, if its you or Slappie, I will put it in the video vault.Skydive~Friends~HappinessAirAnnhttp://www.AirAnn.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #6 November 28, 2001 Yikes, Ann! That's not how we do things here in Oklahoma. We try to help each other out the best we can. Usually for just the cost of a jump ticket, usually not. Depends on the person.Granted, we don't have a huge talent pool to choose from but we have a few gems. I have been getting a few coached freefly jumps from a guy named Brandon Chouinard at my DZ who is helping me on my sit. Some may ask, "Who the hell is Brandon Chouinard?" He's the guy that was part of the world-record 15-way head-down at SDC last summer and is regularly asked to fill slots on dives with people like Mike Ortiz & Rook Nelson. He's a great guy and usually won't let me pay for his jumps when he has helped me. I wouldn't mind paying a large fee to someone who is great and can actually instruct but it is still nice to see really talented people help out because they love to see others grow in the sport. Not because they are so blinded by the dollar signs that they forget that they can barely fly themselves or are just in it for the free lift ticket.Kris"Flailer 4 Life" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FallingILweenie 0 #7 November 28, 2001 I am also lucky enough to jump with a bunch of people that are WAY better than me, so I don't have to pay for coaching (freefly coaching is free at my dz). Its really nice because they are truly interested in jumping with me. This also helps because since people were great with me, i know what it feels like to be taught by people better and i will always be willing to do the same for people that aren't as good as i may be (even tho i can't say i have a lot to teach, every little bit helps!).THe way i look at it is that paid coaching is great if you can afford it cuz lets face it, you can jump with some of the best in our sport...like getting a private b-ball lesson from Jordan or Kobe. Still, a dz shouldn't give it's customers flak for helping each other out. On a side note, while i've learned a ton jumping with people who were coaching me, I've also learned a lot with people that are my skill level or worse that i wouldnt with the coach cuz on those dives you HAVE to fly good to stay with it!blue skiesTomas Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NathanL100 0 #8 November 28, 2001 Umm... I'm pretty new to this and at my DZ you might have to buy someone a slot if you want a coaching jump, but even that is rare. So what ever happened to doing it for the love of the sport?? Or how about coaching for free as a friendly favor kind of thing, its not like you aren't having fun while doing it? Aren't we all supposed to be one big sky diving family and not a bunch of greedy bastards looking to make a quick buck? This is not the kind of attitude that I thought sky diving was all about!!!! Blue Ones,NathanA# 39553 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Phil 0 #9 November 28, 2001 We have on of the best Free Flyers on our DZ and he organizes some workshops during week-ends. The group is usually as big as 10 people and he will fly and film all of them in sits, head-down, head-up or tacks. We pay him for the week-end about $60 for the workshop and it’s more than worth it. If you want you even can get a copy of the film material. I don’t mind paying him because he’s one of the best and will help you even in times, when you don’t are on one of his work-shops. He has his on Free flying school. Check it at www.xlr-8.ch and you will see what I’m going on about. But otherwise you’re right. If the guy can’t fly straight don’t bother.Blue onesPhil Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skreamer 1 #10 November 28, 2001 QuoteI've also learned a lot with people that are my skill level or worseUnfortunately I still haven't found anyone worse than me at my DZ... lolMy DZ here in the UK (Hinton) has this great policy to encourage people to learn. For 2-way coaching (either RW or Freefly), you only pay for half the coach's slot (the DZ pays the other half) - until you get the basic sit-flying license (FF1). The coach has to be approved by the DZ and you get the full briefs, debriefs, camera etc. So, a coach jump for me costs the grand total of £24 (roughly $32). Plus the other freeflyers at the DZ (yes even 3flier) don't mind jumping with the newbies either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jfields 0 #11 November 28, 2001 I like the idea of coaching, but it has issues like everything else. I've done about 8 coached jumps (as the one receiving the instruction) and found them mixed. The jumps I did with Skydive U were definitely worth the money. Of the more informal coached jumps, well... it depends on the coach. One coach was basically worthless and one was pretty good. I've recently found a group that migrates around local dropzone near me helping out low-time jumpers. They don't charge. As discussed in this thread, they do it because they want to put back into the sport. They are Skydivers & Mentors. JustinMy Homepage Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #12 November 28, 2001 I've done one paid coached jump in my 107 total. I paid slot and $10. It was worth every dime and I got a lot out of it. It fixed some bad habits I had made on my own and let me know that it actually wasn't me that screaming in Head Down. It was every one else going slow!!!! What a relief! This Skydive U crap I have heard doesn't impress me a bit. Students being told that they "MUST" do jumps with one group or person is bullshit! Hell....I have even been asked to coach people on their sit flying. It felt pretty funny to have someone with over 300 jumps ask me to coach them but he was just learning to sit fly and I was more than happy to pay my own way and help him as much as I could. It turned out I couldn't do much for him because he was so unstable I spent the whole dive chasing him like crazy. It was fun though and thats the point. Isn't it........."and I'm not easily impressed...Ooohh look...a blue car!" -Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gemini 0 #13 November 28, 2001 Although not "official" coach jumps, I try to watch for the graduating students at Spaceland and invite them to do small RW jumps. I just think introducing them to other jumpers as quickly as possible is a good thing.Hey we're having fun too and it doesn't cost me anymore to jump in a 3-way or a 4-way.When I had less than a 100 jumps, I asked Scotty Carbone if he would coach me. All it cost was the slot and a pack job, and the coaching I received was excellent. And at The Ranch in New York last October, Max Cohen invited two of us RW guys to jump in a hybrid/3D and spent an hour telling us what our role was, what to expect from the freeflyers, and afterwards reviewing the jump video. We didn't even have to pay Carol for the video which was a great surprise!It appears from some of the comments that this may be more of a problem for freeflyers than RW people. Is this correct? Gemini... Fear? Fear is riding the plane down ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #14 November 28, 2001 "It appears from some of the comments that this may be more of a problem for freeflyers than RW people. Is this correct?"Yes it is. I'll tell ya why. You don't have to be that great of a skydiver to take a newbie on a belly fly. You can just be an average jumper with a little experience and probably do the newbie a lot of good. On the other hand. You have to be a really good free flier to take a newbie out and not get hurt much less do any coaching. I wouldn't even think of trying to coach someone Head down. I still have too many of my own problems. I can hold my own with other experienced people now but dodging a newbie that is driving toward you at 40-60 MPH horizontal is a whole nother story! "and I'm not easily impressed...Ooohh look...a blue car!" -Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gemini 0 #15 November 28, 2001 Thanks. That info ties in to a thread that popped up several weeks ago about stealing jumps from a "freefly" school. Gemini... Fear? Fear is riding the plane down ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LawnDart21 0 #16 November 28, 2001 I totally support paying for coach jumps. I was in Lake Wales last year and while I thought I had a solid sitfly, I did a coach jump with Max Cohn of Generation Freefly. It was like, $35 for the coaching plus his slot. I was a bit weary of the $$, but I paid it and I tell you, it was the best money I ever spent. At a glance,I had a good sitfly, but he was able to show me subtle areas that could be improved to increase my agility & stability. It would have taken me 30 or 40 jumps without coaching to figure out what he was teaching, so I look at it as saving $500 or $600 dollars in trial and error. I just think the key to coach jumps as a fun jumper is to make sure your coach is credible. Cheers! Tom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Snowflake 0 #17 November 28, 2001 A few comments on this (I can't help it)QuoteThese days around here we have to pay for help. If your buddy helps you and the word gets out about 'the help' your buddy gets asked to stop due to the cut back in the coaches business. I realize people need to make a living but when it comes down to restricting the passing of vital information to new skydivers so they can make said living well that is just pathetic (if they are truly worth the money they wouldn't care). Does the DZO approve of this behavior? If so I would jump some place else. Capotilisim (spelling) is great but it can be taken to far and this is a classic example. Whats next? "You must come to the DZ and tithe 10 percent before you can read a paragraph from the Holy SIM"QuoteThere are some in Dallas who jump for a slot and a pack... But, are worth the $75. Some in San Marcus just want to help and do it just about free, I am told.well SSM is awesome. I've paid for some Skydive U jumps 35 plus slot (I thought they were worth it), but for the most part when I jump RW it's usually with at least one person that has 700+ jumps and it's almost the same as a coach jump and money is never discussed (I didn't get my SCR and Eagle on #22 cause I'm a skygod and it didn't cost me $144....lol). They do it because they love the sport and want to see it keep growing and improving. As far as Freefly coaching a bunch of FF'ers went to nationals and came back fired up (I think they wanna see FF'ers take over the DZ) theres a lot of "coaching" going on here right now free and for a slot, but you get video with the slot. Plus if you walk up to a "coach" and ask them a question they'll awnser for free. I myself feel that when I am a good enough skydiver I will be more then happy to jump with lowtimers to help (I almost feel it's my duty) I'm sorry to hear thats what goes on at your DZ. Have you brought it up to one of said coaches in a non confrontational manner?PS you might wanna post this in Safety and Training too JG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #18 November 28, 2001 "tithe 10 percent before you can read a paragraph from the Holy SIM"Have you been going to one of those churches with snakes again? "and I'm not easily impressed...Ooohh look...a blue car!" -Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Geoff 0 #19 November 28, 2001 I also think Hinton's policy for coaching is a great bargain.Unless they've changed the rules recently, you can also get coached jumps up to UK FF2 (Head down). I couldn't fly head-down at all before, but after about 10 coached jumps plus about 100 non-coached practice jumps, I can dock with another head-downer on a good day. I'm sure I wouldn't be doing that from just picking up helpful hints around the DZ.Good coaching is really worthwhile - even just a few jumps.Geoff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 3 #20 November 28, 2001 Yes, this ties into a thread we had a few weeks ago. The deal is, at least with me, if you are going to pay someone to coach you, then that person had better be a nationally ranked competitor, not just some joe with an AD number (freeflying) or a skydive U coach certificate. Besides that, then you are better off finding friends with better skills, or that group of very-experienced skydivers who just love to help people out (like me). I have been to plenty of dropzones where there are people trying to rake people for money when they themselves have very little experience in the sport, much less teaching experience. This goes both ways, though, as there are plenty of very-good competitors out there who just don't have decent teaching skills. That comes with maturity and some "instructors" just don't have what it takes. The majority of people I jump with on most weekends are not on my level. I am not the kind of person to just sit around and watch a group of guys just off student status try and figure out how to do something; I go over and school them. That being said, every jump I do ends up being a coach jump, one way or another. If I am spinning 8-way and half the guys on the jump are members of the Golden Knights RW team, then it is I gaining the majority of experience. If I am jumping with three 300-jump wonders, then it is they who are getting the benefit of my organizing skills. It all works out in the end. At Raeford, it is a very common occurence for Chris Wagner, Joe Trinko, or Chris Talbert to be doing volunteer organizing. The dropzone pays for their slot and we get the benefit of their multi-world championship experience. These guys make plenty of money coaching full-time teams (when they want to), but give their time freely at their home dropzone. It is by jumping with these guys on a regular basis that I get invited onto "upper class" skydives when I travel around. The experience I gain with jumping with these people who have greater skills than I translates directly to the jumps I then make with the lower-experienced jumpers in the club. Do you follow me? While it is true that a person can make quantum leaps in his or her skydiving ability by paying for the "right" instruction on occasion, it is my opinion that one only do so if he wins the lottery, is living off a trust fund, or is working towards being a competitor in the least amount of time possible. Barring that, I feel it is better just to associate yourself with a group of jumpers who are better than you who will allow you to join them on their skydives. Rarely have I ever just walked up to a group and asked what they were doing on a jump and just join in without dirt diving every single phase of the jump. It is that phase, then the debrief, where you do your learning. Chuck BlueD-12501My webpage HERE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nacmacfeegle 0 #21 November 28, 2001 Lots of good points here, and I would like to chuck in my tuppence worth....I have over 800 jumps on my belly (but jump numbers don't mean shit unless they are in the relevant discipline right?), and have received all sorts of tips and coaching both paid, and unpaid. By far the most effective coaching I have ever received was the type we actually paid for, approached our coaches with a set of goals and objectives, and worked out a plan to achieve them. There are some good articles on getting the most from training/coaching etc on the web at the British mag site www.skydivemag.com (this magazine rocks by the way, and there's a lot of good stuff here).A good friend and mentor reckons he has spent over $6000 on coaching in his time, and still needs some (the guy is a world record holder and spent a lot of time at the very top of the sport in the UK, so keep the flames down folks).I was recently drawn to the dark side, and after about 30 jumps of flailing, zooming, and generally endangering myself and friends, I sought the help that I so desperately needed.One jump with video and stills from the resident coach (Eric B)at Spaceland and I believe my sit is basically sorted (still some fine tuning required though). I firmly believe that this is the way forward. As in belly RW, VRW with (good) video is worth at least 5 jumps without, in terms of learning, and a coached jump with video is worth even more. If the camera flyer is also a coach then all the better, he/she is right there keeping you straight. The coaching I got at Spaceland was professional, structured, effective, and covered things like gear safety, flying safety, exit order, mental approach, etc. The jump was pre-briefed and subsequently critiqued very professionally. In my opinion I got excellent value for money. In terms of progression vs money spent, Eric has saved me about 50 bucks, and I get a neat video and some snaps.On the other hand, we all want to jump with our friends, and bring on and develop newbies so we can have even more fun together (yeah fun, remember fun??). I've found that passing on free coaching and little tips, sneaks, secret stuff, etc is very rewarding, and can be challenging in its own right. However I am lucky to have a job that pays enough that I don't have to earn money from my jumping to support it. I have paid my own slot when jumping camera with newbies, low time 4 way teams, etc etc Why? cos its fun (that 'f' word again)..... But, I am very aware that for some people, filming, coaching etc is their livelihood, and that should be respected.At the end of the day, its your cash, you pays yer money, you takes yer chances......And you will know pretty qiuckly whether your coaching( whether paid for, or free) is being effective, and providing you with value for money, or helping you attain your goals.D"Never confuse activity with progress" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mountainman 0 #22 November 28, 2001 Chuck.....once again.....great advice and very well put. I would love to go down to Sebastian and pay Rook for 50 freefly coach jumps...however, that would cost me about the same as a new rig. If you are not rich, maybe just do a couple coach jumps, but make sure they are certified.Our DZ makes AFF and S/L grads do coach jumps with coaches that cost $70 (2 slots, rental and $ for the coach) each and you need to do 10. Now...these coaches usually have 200-400 jumps and that's about it. It is good help to practice the basic RW stuff, but I would think that just covering the slot would be sufficient.Ah well.....that is over. Thank God.-------------http://www.JumpinDuo.com"oh no. Not another one"-Alienangel Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #23 November 28, 2001 "Our DZ makes AFF and S/L grads do coach jumps with coaches that cost $70 (2 slots, rental and $ for the coach) each and you need to do 10. Now...these coaches usually have 200-400 jumps"Cheese and Rice!!!! Did they turn you upside down and make sure they got all the change out of your pockets too? Hell....they probably even scraped out the lint and have child slave laborers sewing jumpsuits out of it!!! "and I'm not easily impressed...Ooohh look...a blue car!" -Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mountainman 0 #24 November 28, 2001 Hehehe.....all I can do is laugh! -------------http://www.JumpinDuo.com"oh no. Not another one"-Alienangel Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jfields 0 #25 November 28, 2001 A lot of the demand for "coached jumps" depends on the DZ. I went all the way through 7 AFF jumps and about 30 more solo and 2-way jumps with very little knowledge about some basics. All the instructors told me I was doing fine, so I thought I was, for awhile anyway. While many of the jumpers at my home DZ are very experienced, there is a problem with the flow of information from them to the novices. Either they are busy doing their own thing and are unwilling to "lower themselves" to a simple 2 or 4-way jump that won't turn a lot of points, or they are willing but don't have the observation and communication skills to relay any valuable information to the novice. I see this somewhat as a failing of the DZ. It wasn't really until I went on a road trip to another DZ and paid for some training that I got someone who could skydive well (national champion) and had the skills to communicate to me what I was doing wrong and give realistic suggestions on ways to improve. That said, if a similar level of expertise had been available at my home DZ at the time from people wanting to help, I wouldn't have paid for the training. (Since I got my "A", some people have started filling this role. They aren't employees of the DZ, just friendly experienced jumpers willing to spend some time and jump tickets.)Nobody gave my any pressure to go to Skydive U, but it was a solution to the lack of guidance and help at my home DZ. I wouldn't tell everyone to do it, but I know that in my situation, it was worthwhile. I did 6 jumps with the instructor and learned a lot more than I had on the previous 40 or so at my home DZ. JustinMy Homepage Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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FallingILweenie 0 #7 November 28, 2001 I am also lucky enough to jump with a bunch of people that are WAY better than me, so I don't have to pay for coaching (freefly coaching is free at my dz). Its really nice because they are truly interested in jumping with me. This also helps because since people were great with me, i know what it feels like to be taught by people better and i will always be willing to do the same for people that aren't as good as i may be (even tho i can't say i have a lot to teach, every little bit helps!).THe way i look at it is that paid coaching is great if you can afford it cuz lets face it, you can jump with some of the best in our sport...like getting a private b-ball lesson from Jordan or Kobe. Still, a dz shouldn't give it's customers flak for helping each other out. On a side note, while i've learned a ton jumping with people who were coaching me, I've also learned a lot with people that are my skill level or worse that i wouldnt with the coach cuz on those dives you HAVE to fly good to stay with it!blue skiesTomas Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NathanL100 0 #8 November 28, 2001 Umm... I'm pretty new to this and at my DZ you might have to buy someone a slot if you want a coaching jump, but even that is rare. So what ever happened to doing it for the love of the sport?? Or how about coaching for free as a friendly favor kind of thing, its not like you aren't having fun while doing it? Aren't we all supposed to be one big sky diving family and not a bunch of greedy bastards looking to make a quick buck? This is not the kind of attitude that I thought sky diving was all about!!!! Blue Ones,NathanA# 39553 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil 0 #9 November 28, 2001 We have on of the best Free Flyers on our DZ and he organizes some workshops during week-ends. The group is usually as big as 10 people and he will fly and film all of them in sits, head-down, head-up or tacks. We pay him for the week-end about $60 for the workshop and it’s more than worth it. If you want you even can get a copy of the film material. I don’t mind paying him because he’s one of the best and will help you even in times, when you don’t are on one of his work-shops. He has his on Free flying school. Check it at www.xlr-8.ch and you will see what I’m going on about. But otherwise you’re right. If the guy can’t fly straight don’t bother.Blue onesPhil Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #10 November 28, 2001 QuoteI've also learned a lot with people that are my skill level or worseUnfortunately I still haven't found anyone worse than me at my DZ... lolMy DZ here in the UK (Hinton) has this great policy to encourage people to learn. For 2-way coaching (either RW or Freefly), you only pay for half the coach's slot (the DZ pays the other half) - until you get the basic sit-flying license (FF1). The coach has to be approved by the DZ and you get the full briefs, debriefs, camera etc. So, a coach jump for me costs the grand total of £24 (roughly $32). Plus the other freeflyers at the DZ (yes even 3flier) don't mind jumping with the newbies either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #11 November 28, 2001 I like the idea of coaching, but it has issues like everything else. I've done about 8 coached jumps (as the one receiving the instruction) and found them mixed. The jumps I did with Skydive U were definitely worth the money. Of the more informal coached jumps, well... it depends on the coach. One coach was basically worthless and one was pretty good. I've recently found a group that migrates around local dropzone near me helping out low-time jumpers. They don't charge. As discussed in this thread, they do it because they want to put back into the sport. They are Skydivers & Mentors. JustinMy Homepage Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #12 November 28, 2001 I've done one paid coached jump in my 107 total. I paid slot and $10. It was worth every dime and I got a lot out of it. It fixed some bad habits I had made on my own and let me know that it actually wasn't me that screaming in Head Down. It was every one else going slow!!!! What a relief! This Skydive U crap I have heard doesn't impress me a bit. Students being told that they "MUST" do jumps with one group or person is bullshit! Hell....I have even been asked to coach people on their sit flying. It felt pretty funny to have someone with over 300 jumps ask me to coach them but he was just learning to sit fly and I was more than happy to pay my own way and help him as much as I could. It turned out I couldn't do much for him because he was so unstable I spent the whole dive chasing him like crazy. It was fun though and thats the point. Isn't it........."and I'm not easily impressed...Ooohh look...a blue car!" -Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #13 November 28, 2001 Although not "official" coach jumps, I try to watch for the graduating students at Spaceland and invite them to do small RW jumps. I just think introducing them to other jumpers as quickly as possible is a good thing.Hey we're having fun too and it doesn't cost me anymore to jump in a 3-way or a 4-way.When I had less than a 100 jumps, I asked Scotty Carbone if he would coach me. All it cost was the slot and a pack job, and the coaching I received was excellent. And at The Ranch in New York last October, Max Cohen invited two of us RW guys to jump in a hybrid/3D and spent an hour telling us what our role was, what to expect from the freeflyers, and afterwards reviewing the jump video. We didn't even have to pay Carol for the video which was a great surprise!It appears from some of the comments that this may be more of a problem for freeflyers than RW people. Is this correct? Gemini... Fear? Fear is riding the plane down ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #14 November 28, 2001 "It appears from some of the comments that this may be more of a problem for freeflyers than RW people. Is this correct?"Yes it is. I'll tell ya why. You don't have to be that great of a skydiver to take a newbie on a belly fly. You can just be an average jumper with a little experience and probably do the newbie a lot of good. On the other hand. You have to be a really good free flier to take a newbie out and not get hurt much less do any coaching. I wouldn't even think of trying to coach someone Head down. I still have too many of my own problems. I can hold my own with other experienced people now but dodging a newbie that is driving toward you at 40-60 MPH horizontal is a whole nother story! "and I'm not easily impressed...Ooohh look...a blue car!" -Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #15 November 28, 2001 Thanks. That info ties in to a thread that popped up several weeks ago about stealing jumps from a "freefly" school. Gemini... Fear? Fear is riding the plane down ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #16 November 28, 2001 I totally support paying for coach jumps. I was in Lake Wales last year and while I thought I had a solid sitfly, I did a coach jump with Max Cohn of Generation Freefly. It was like, $35 for the coaching plus his slot. I was a bit weary of the $$, but I paid it and I tell you, it was the best money I ever spent. At a glance,I had a good sitfly, but he was able to show me subtle areas that could be improved to increase my agility & stability. It would have taken me 30 or 40 jumps without coaching to figure out what he was teaching, so I look at it as saving $500 or $600 dollars in trial and error. I just think the key to coach jumps as a fun jumper is to make sure your coach is credible. Cheers! Tom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snowflake 0 #17 November 28, 2001 A few comments on this (I can't help it)QuoteThese days around here we have to pay for help. If your buddy helps you and the word gets out about 'the help' your buddy gets asked to stop due to the cut back in the coaches business. I realize people need to make a living but when it comes down to restricting the passing of vital information to new skydivers so they can make said living well that is just pathetic (if they are truly worth the money they wouldn't care). Does the DZO approve of this behavior? If so I would jump some place else. Capotilisim (spelling) is great but it can be taken to far and this is a classic example. Whats next? "You must come to the DZ and tithe 10 percent before you can read a paragraph from the Holy SIM"QuoteThere are some in Dallas who jump for a slot and a pack... But, are worth the $75. Some in San Marcus just want to help and do it just about free, I am told.well SSM is awesome. I've paid for some Skydive U jumps 35 plus slot (I thought they were worth it), but for the most part when I jump RW it's usually with at least one person that has 700+ jumps and it's almost the same as a coach jump and money is never discussed (I didn't get my SCR and Eagle on #22 cause I'm a skygod and it didn't cost me $144....lol). They do it because they love the sport and want to see it keep growing and improving. As far as Freefly coaching a bunch of FF'ers went to nationals and came back fired up (I think they wanna see FF'ers take over the DZ) theres a lot of "coaching" going on here right now free and for a slot, but you get video with the slot. Plus if you walk up to a "coach" and ask them a question they'll awnser for free. I myself feel that when I am a good enough skydiver I will be more then happy to jump with lowtimers to help (I almost feel it's my duty) I'm sorry to hear thats what goes on at your DZ. Have you brought it up to one of said coaches in a non confrontational manner?PS you might wanna post this in Safety and Training too JG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #18 November 28, 2001 "tithe 10 percent before you can read a paragraph from the Holy SIM"Have you been going to one of those churches with snakes again? "and I'm not easily impressed...Ooohh look...a blue car!" -Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Geoff 0 #19 November 28, 2001 I also think Hinton's policy for coaching is a great bargain.Unless they've changed the rules recently, you can also get coached jumps up to UK FF2 (Head down). I couldn't fly head-down at all before, but after about 10 coached jumps plus about 100 non-coached practice jumps, I can dock with another head-downer on a good day. I'm sure I wouldn't be doing that from just picking up helpful hints around the DZ.Good coaching is really worthwhile - even just a few jumps.Geoff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #20 November 28, 2001 Yes, this ties into a thread we had a few weeks ago. The deal is, at least with me, if you are going to pay someone to coach you, then that person had better be a nationally ranked competitor, not just some joe with an AD number (freeflying) or a skydive U coach certificate. Besides that, then you are better off finding friends with better skills, or that group of very-experienced skydivers who just love to help people out (like me). I have been to plenty of dropzones where there are people trying to rake people for money when they themselves have very little experience in the sport, much less teaching experience. This goes both ways, though, as there are plenty of very-good competitors out there who just don't have decent teaching skills. That comes with maturity and some "instructors" just don't have what it takes. The majority of people I jump with on most weekends are not on my level. I am not the kind of person to just sit around and watch a group of guys just off student status try and figure out how to do something; I go over and school them. That being said, every jump I do ends up being a coach jump, one way or another. If I am spinning 8-way and half the guys on the jump are members of the Golden Knights RW team, then it is I gaining the majority of experience. If I am jumping with three 300-jump wonders, then it is they who are getting the benefit of my organizing skills. It all works out in the end. At Raeford, it is a very common occurence for Chris Wagner, Joe Trinko, or Chris Talbert to be doing volunteer organizing. The dropzone pays for their slot and we get the benefit of their multi-world championship experience. These guys make plenty of money coaching full-time teams (when they want to), but give their time freely at their home dropzone. It is by jumping with these guys on a regular basis that I get invited onto "upper class" skydives when I travel around. The experience I gain with jumping with these people who have greater skills than I translates directly to the jumps I then make with the lower-experienced jumpers in the club. Do you follow me? While it is true that a person can make quantum leaps in his or her skydiving ability by paying for the "right" instruction on occasion, it is my opinion that one only do so if he wins the lottery, is living off a trust fund, or is working towards being a competitor in the least amount of time possible. Barring that, I feel it is better just to associate yourself with a group of jumpers who are better than you who will allow you to join them on their skydives. Rarely have I ever just walked up to a group and asked what they were doing on a jump and just join in without dirt diving every single phase of the jump. It is that phase, then the debrief, where you do your learning. Chuck BlueD-12501My webpage HERE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #21 November 28, 2001 Lots of good points here, and I would like to chuck in my tuppence worth....I have over 800 jumps on my belly (but jump numbers don't mean shit unless they are in the relevant discipline right?), and have received all sorts of tips and coaching both paid, and unpaid. By far the most effective coaching I have ever received was the type we actually paid for, approached our coaches with a set of goals and objectives, and worked out a plan to achieve them. There are some good articles on getting the most from training/coaching etc on the web at the British mag site www.skydivemag.com (this magazine rocks by the way, and there's a lot of good stuff here).A good friend and mentor reckons he has spent over $6000 on coaching in his time, and still needs some (the guy is a world record holder and spent a lot of time at the very top of the sport in the UK, so keep the flames down folks).I was recently drawn to the dark side, and after about 30 jumps of flailing, zooming, and generally endangering myself and friends, I sought the help that I so desperately needed.One jump with video and stills from the resident coach (Eric B)at Spaceland and I believe my sit is basically sorted (still some fine tuning required though). I firmly believe that this is the way forward. As in belly RW, VRW with (good) video is worth at least 5 jumps without, in terms of learning, and a coached jump with video is worth even more. If the camera flyer is also a coach then all the better, he/she is right there keeping you straight. The coaching I got at Spaceland was professional, structured, effective, and covered things like gear safety, flying safety, exit order, mental approach, etc. The jump was pre-briefed and subsequently critiqued very professionally. In my opinion I got excellent value for money. In terms of progression vs money spent, Eric has saved me about 50 bucks, and I get a neat video and some snaps.On the other hand, we all want to jump with our friends, and bring on and develop newbies so we can have even more fun together (yeah fun, remember fun??). I've found that passing on free coaching and little tips, sneaks, secret stuff, etc is very rewarding, and can be challenging in its own right. However I am lucky to have a job that pays enough that I don't have to earn money from my jumping to support it. I have paid my own slot when jumping camera with newbies, low time 4 way teams, etc etc Why? cos its fun (that 'f' word again)..... But, I am very aware that for some people, filming, coaching etc is their livelihood, and that should be respected.At the end of the day, its your cash, you pays yer money, you takes yer chances......And you will know pretty qiuckly whether your coaching( whether paid for, or free) is being effective, and providing you with value for money, or helping you attain your goals.D"Never confuse activity with progress" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mountainman 0 #22 November 28, 2001 Chuck.....once again.....great advice and very well put. I would love to go down to Sebastian and pay Rook for 50 freefly coach jumps...however, that would cost me about the same as a new rig. If you are not rich, maybe just do a couple coach jumps, but make sure they are certified.Our DZ makes AFF and S/L grads do coach jumps with coaches that cost $70 (2 slots, rental and $ for the coach) each and you need to do 10. Now...these coaches usually have 200-400 jumps and that's about it. It is good help to practice the basic RW stuff, but I would think that just covering the slot would be sufficient.Ah well.....that is over. Thank God.-------------http://www.JumpinDuo.com"oh no. Not another one"-Alienangel Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #23 November 28, 2001 "Our DZ makes AFF and S/L grads do coach jumps with coaches that cost $70 (2 slots, rental and $ for the coach) each and you need to do 10. Now...these coaches usually have 200-400 jumps"Cheese and Rice!!!! Did they turn you upside down and make sure they got all the change out of your pockets too? Hell....they probably even scraped out the lint and have child slave laborers sewing jumpsuits out of it!!! "and I'm not easily impressed...Ooohh look...a blue car!" -Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mountainman 0 #24 November 28, 2001 Hehehe.....all I can do is laugh! -------------http://www.JumpinDuo.com"oh no. Not another one"-Alienangel Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #25 November 28, 2001 A lot of the demand for "coached jumps" depends on the DZ. I went all the way through 7 AFF jumps and about 30 more solo and 2-way jumps with very little knowledge about some basics. All the instructors told me I was doing fine, so I thought I was, for awhile anyway. While many of the jumpers at my home DZ are very experienced, there is a problem with the flow of information from them to the novices. Either they are busy doing their own thing and are unwilling to "lower themselves" to a simple 2 or 4-way jump that won't turn a lot of points, or they are willing but don't have the observation and communication skills to relay any valuable information to the novice. I see this somewhat as a failing of the DZ. It wasn't really until I went on a road trip to another DZ and paid for some training that I got someone who could skydive well (national champion) and had the skills to communicate to me what I was doing wrong and give realistic suggestions on ways to improve. That said, if a similar level of expertise had been available at my home DZ at the time from people wanting to help, I wouldn't have paid for the training. (Since I got my "A", some people have started filling this role. They aren't employees of the DZ, just friendly experienced jumpers willing to spend some time and jump tickets.)Nobody gave my any pressure to go to Skydive U, but it was a solution to the lack of guidance and help at my home DZ. I wouldn't tell everyone to do it, but I know that in my situation, it was worthwhile. I did 6 jumps with the instructor and learned a lot more than I had on the previous 40 or so at my home DZ. JustinMy Homepage Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
