freeflir29 0 #51 January 29, 2002 "San Marcos had the accident with the formation load last year, but it was the (?) Kingair pilot flying out of formation"So they have aircrew problems????"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #52 January 29, 2002 No let me say this once and for all: San Marcos is a good/safe DZ, as with all the other DZs in Texas that I've jumped at (Waller, Spaceland, Dallas, San Marcos, Eagle Flight). That wasn't a normal pilot for the DZ during that boogie. Shit happens, think about the stuff that happens at all the other DZs across the country. We do all we can do to prevent these problems, but yes stuff does happen.Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom.-General George Patton- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #53 January 29, 2002 Okay, I wasn't there, never been there, I'm not a pilot and what I heard is secondhand by email from someone who was there... so I probably shouldn't post this at all but I just so love sticking my nose into things that are none of my business... What I heard is there is a possibility that there was a problem/issue with the gas cap. The pilot got the engine(s) restarted and landed fine, which leads me to believe there was at least some fuel left in the tanks... at least if airplane fuel tanks are anything like my car's gas tank...pull and flare,lisa--Life is tough, but I'm tougher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #54 January 29, 2002 "but I just so love sticking my nose into things that are none of my business... "Women......"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jessica 0 #55 January 29, 2002 San Marcos is a GREAT DZ, and I've never felt safer than I do there. We don't know exactly what happened this weekend in Houston, so I wish we would not cast aspersions on specific DZs in a public forum. It's so damaging.Clay, haven't you and I PMed about this before?Pet me! I'm harmless and cute! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #56 January 29, 2002 "Clay, haven't you and I PMed about this before?"Yep.....That was before this thing though. Sounds like they just have some horrible luck......"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #57 January 29, 2002 You know, there are a couple DZs that I will never jump at because of the opinions of some trusted friends about those DZs. Many people do jump at those DZs, though and since I've never jumped there, I'm not going to speculate about those DZs on a public forum. If I do, I'm sure as hell not going to reference them directly, using names or otherwise. Personally I think it is bad form to do so, especially due to the sheer amount of people who read these forums that we never see. Although I've never seen the server logs, I'm willing to bet that there are atleast hundreds of people who lurk the forums and never even register a name. What is said here is noticed by many people, so when it comes to something like this (talking poorly about a specific DZ, etc), I feel that it is in poor taste. My $0.02.Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom.-General George Patton- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #58 January 29, 2002 This would be the question I'm asking then. Was there an actual engine failure during this incident? Or was the abort called after the engine failure? When (whoever it was) said that the otter "ran out of gas" I would take that as there being an engine failure. Now, if I (and many others) have taken that wrong it would be good to clear that up.Chris SchindlerD-19012ATP/CFIIwww.DiverDriver.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #59 January 29, 2002 Point taken Dave. I don't normally speculate publicly about DZ's. There is one I can bash because I have been there and I know all the people involved. I stated quite clearly that I have never been skydiving in Texas. When you start to hear one thing...and then another....and then another....I personally start to wonder. That's all I'm saying. I have it from at least two people with personal experience (AggieDave & Jessica) that they would jump there any time and feel perfectly safe. That's good enough for me. I'm an Up Jumper with my own rig. I can take care of myself so as long as the plane gets to altitude I really don't care what you do after that. I'll be fine. So.....all that said I'm NOT bashing anyone. I didn't mean to bash anyone and I apologize if it came across that way. It wasn't meant to be. With two serious safety problems in less than a year I wanted to ask the question to people that have been there. End of story."I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #60 January 29, 2002 Cool man! Thank you for your reply to my post, by the way. Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom.-General George Patton- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
antimike 0 #61 January 29, 2002 OK OK OK Lets everybody slow down on this FAA shit! I was on every one of these 40 ways. It was the best skydivng days of my life!!! This misconception of San Marcos Otter running out of gas is completley un true!! There are 3 pilots that I think are some of the best first is Steve Boyd, second is Stew Cav and 3rd is Mark Allen. That otter DID NOT RUN out of gas, it had some problems with the engine ( I'm not an A&P so I don't know what the problem was) the formation load was aborted. The otter landed with both engines running, As soon as it was on the ground a full run up was done and it flew first thing in the morning empty of jumpers just to check it out. This formation event was so well organized and executed from the organizers to the pilots to the manifest...oh yea plus the jumpers, it was an incredible thing to be a part of. AND just to let everybody know what a class act Mark is he bought the jump for all 42 of us, on the pilot communication load!!!!!!! So lets stop the negative comments. Any one of you on this forum would have given your left testicle or overy to be on this well organized and executed event. How many of you have been on 13-40 ways in one weekend? I say HATS off to Spaceland, Jack Berke, Tom Jenkins for hosting and organizing. And also a Great big thanks to Phil Chaplel DZO of San Marcos for suppling his fine otter and pilot!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #62 January 29, 2002 Thank you for clearing that up. I hope all can rest well now.Chris SchindlerD-19012ATP/CFIIwww.DiverDriver.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #63 January 29, 2002 Good enough for me! Thanks for the info...."I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #64 January 29, 2002 QuoteYou know, there are a couple DZs that I will never jump at because of the opinions of some trusted friends about those DZs.There are quite a few good skydivers at Chicago area DZ's who constantly warn me to avoid a specific Chicago area DZ. Despite their advice, I continue to occaisionally frequent this DZ.This thread is firmly reinforcing my belief that "good" and "trusted" skydivers are entirely the wrong person to turn to for the appriasal of Drop Zone and aircraft safety.Far too often these "experts" are only rumour mongers, and this thread is a great example of how these rumours circulate.What started out as jumper speculating that a plane ran out of fuel has turned into questioning the safety of what I'll presume is a good DZ.People need to be aware of what's going on around them. They need to make their own decisions. More importantly, they need to question the safety of each drop zone they visit, not just the one's that some self appointed "expert" fingered.When something seems wrong but they aren't sure, they need to turn to trusted officials to explain. These officials can be Drop Zone Owners, Safety and Training Officers, the USPA, or the FAA.So far in this thread we haven't heard from any of these individuals. In fact, I don't believe we've heard from anyone who actually knows what's happened.As an anecdote, I have never heard a single bad word about that specific Chicago area DZ from it's compeditor's DZO's. In fact one of these competing DZO's told me quite plainly "I would trust any Chicago DZ to throw my mother out of their planes. That's telling. Anyways, I digress.I would love to find out what happened in the 40 way attempt. I'm not going to take the word of Average Jumper that the plane ran out of fuel. I'll wait for the report in Parachutist. I'll question my DZO next time I'm out. Another great resource for aircraft safety is the NTSB. They posts incident reports of Accidents at http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp. Fortunately this incident was not serious enough to warant a report. Do a search for skydiving and see what comes up... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #65 January 29, 2002 Quote Gez, Im not a pilot, but just because the low fuel light comes on doesn't mean FREAK AND PANIC AND CALL THE FAA, does it? Maybe it means, hey...let's scratch the formation load at this point and get everyone down safe. First of all, the initial post said that the Otter "ran out of gas".. I take that to mean......well, out of gas....not just low on gas.. Second.. If the low fuel lights came on in an Otter, he was well below the legal required fuel load remaining at landing.. Doing big way formation loads the pilots know that multiple passes are more likely than not - so they need to plan accordingly for fuel.. Let me reiterate one point....running out of fuel is NOT acceptable, and having the attitude that "shit happens" or "nobody got hurt so no big deal" is damn dangerous..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #66 January 29, 2002 Quote good pilots don't take off with just enough fuel to get to 400 ft. good pilots know to put the nose down. good pilots already have an out planned. good pilots are experienced enough to handle this type of emergency. Good pilots don't run out of gas to begin with.. If you think that running out of gas is "not a big deal", you really need to re-think whether what you consider safe really is or not.. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #67 January 29, 2002 Quote Ok, I just got an email asking me to way in on this thread. Where do I start? Thanks for jumping in here, Chris....it's good to have the opinion of an experienced jump pilot.. Unfortunately, the details are sketchy at best..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #68 January 29, 2002 Quote That otter DID NOT RUN out of gas, it had some problems with the engine ( I'm not an A&P so I don't know what the problem was) the formation load was aborted. The otter landed with both engines running, As soon as it was on the ground a full run up was done and it flew first thing in the morning empty of jumpers just to check it out. Were you on the aircraft in question during the incident? If the engine quit(and there still seems to be some confusion on that point) - it quit for a reason......I, personally, would have a mechanic check the engine out before attempting to fly it again if the reason for the engine failure was not immediately obvious - such as running low on, or out of fuel.. Maybe they did have a mechanic check it out - nobody has said whether or not that was the case.. I've said my piece, and everybody knows how I feel on the issue.....so this will be the last I post on this thread.. In case you're wondering about my background, and my knowledge on airplanes, regs, etc, I have been a professional pilot for 8 years and have almost 6,000 hours of flight time - the vast majority of that as a Captain on turbine powered aircraft.. Running out of gas, or low enough for the lights to come on in an Otter, is unacceptable..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Levin 0 #69 January 29, 2002 aviatrr wrote: [/>>>>Good pilots don't run out of gas to begin with.. If you think that running out of gas is "not a big deal", you really need to re-think whether what you consider safe really is or not.. << Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverdriver 5 #70 January 29, 2002 I'm glad I was proven wrong. Course, I wasn't trying to make any accusations either. The original post that brought this on talked about an otter running out of gas. I posted that "IF" that happened....yadda...yadda....yadda. This board isn't the NTSB so nothing official can ever be expected here.But I'm still concerned about the attitudes that originally thought running out of gas wasn't a big deal. No disrespect to any jumpers, but the average jumper doesn't know very much about aircraft safety. Skydivers put a lot of trust into an operation to take care of them. Oh, sure. You've signed the waiver, but we as operators are required to give due care.I hope this thread serves two purposes: 1) Don't post inflamatory information unless you're sure of your info. The following posts will take on a life of their own. 2) Increase your self worth and expect nothing but the best from your aircraft operator and pilot. Just because it's "skydiving" doesn't mean we can have a laclustor (sp?) attitude toward aircraft safety and operation.Chris SchindlerD-19012ATP/CFIIwww.DiverDriver.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jumperpaula 0 #71 January 29, 2002 Quote it had some problems with the engine ( I'm not an A&P so I don't know what the problem was) the formation load was aborted. The otter landed with both engines running, As soon as it was on the ground a full run up was done-and it flew first thing in the morning empty of jumpers just to check it out..... AND just to let everybody know what a class act Mark is he bought the jump for all 42 of us This was a grand event with 13 formation loads flown. Even the problems were handled swiftly and efficiently. It's ashame to take away from the success of the event for one aborted load. 40 way is an amazing thing. Makes you love skydiving. Fly Your Slot ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #72 January 29, 2002 Well...I think the horse is long dead. We can stop kicking it now! Sounds like this was an engine problem. Not operator error. San Marcos is a fine DZ and skydiving in Texas is a good thing. Can we leave it at that? "I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #73 January 29, 2002 NO! Because skydiving in Texas is a *GREAT* thing...Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom.-General George Patton- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #74 January 29, 2002 "Because skydiving in Texas is a *GREAT* thing"QUIET IN THE PEANUT GALLERY!!! "I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nacmacfeegle 0 #75 January 29, 2002 "Can we leave it at that? "Well, one thing that slipped though the net in all this discourse was the cessna coming bowling out of the west at 2k headed straight for the swarm (not just over the DZ, or close, but no shit, straight for them!). Last second hard right.....For me this was a much bigger issue than the previuosly discussed topic (and good points, well put by the pilots on forum, thanks for keeping your passengers in the picture).Naw, lets forget it and get back to Boobies!D Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
diverdriver 5 #70 January 29, 2002 I'm glad I was proven wrong. Course, I wasn't trying to make any accusations either. The original post that brought this on talked about an otter running out of gas. I posted that "IF" that happened....yadda...yadda....yadda. This board isn't the NTSB so nothing official can ever be expected here.But I'm still concerned about the attitudes that originally thought running out of gas wasn't a big deal. No disrespect to any jumpers, but the average jumper doesn't know very much about aircraft safety. Skydivers put a lot of trust into an operation to take care of them. Oh, sure. You've signed the waiver, but we as operators are required to give due care.I hope this thread serves two purposes: 1) Don't post inflamatory information unless you're sure of your info. The following posts will take on a life of their own. 2) Increase your self worth and expect nothing but the best from your aircraft operator and pilot. Just because it's "skydiving" doesn't mean we can have a laclustor (sp?) attitude toward aircraft safety and operation.Chris SchindlerD-19012ATP/CFIIwww.DiverDriver.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jumperpaula 0 #71 January 29, 2002 Quote it had some problems with the engine ( I'm not an A&P so I don't know what the problem was) the formation load was aborted. The otter landed with both engines running, As soon as it was on the ground a full run up was done-and it flew first thing in the morning empty of jumpers just to check it out..... AND just to let everybody know what a class act Mark is he bought the jump for all 42 of us This was a grand event with 13 formation loads flown. Even the problems were handled swiftly and efficiently. It's ashame to take away from the success of the event for one aborted load. 40 way is an amazing thing. Makes you love skydiving. Fly Your Slot ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #72 January 29, 2002 Well...I think the horse is long dead. We can stop kicking it now! Sounds like this was an engine problem. Not operator error. San Marcos is a fine DZ and skydiving in Texas is a good thing. Can we leave it at that? "I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #73 January 29, 2002 NO! Because skydiving in Texas is a *GREAT* thing...Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom.-General George Patton- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #74 January 29, 2002 "Because skydiving in Texas is a *GREAT* thing"QUIET IN THE PEANUT GALLERY!!! "I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #75 January 29, 2002 "Can we leave it at that? "Well, one thing that slipped though the net in all this discourse was the cessna coming bowling out of the west at 2k headed straight for the swarm (not just over the DZ, or close, but no shit, straight for them!). Last second hard right.....For me this was a much bigger issue than the previuosly discussed topic (and good points, well put by the pilots on forum, thanks for keeping your passengers in the picture).Naw, lets forget it and get back to Boobies!D Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
