Rent vs buy--another perspective

[katzas 0]

Not sure this belongs in this forum but what the hell.

OK--so you got your A and now are faced with the age-old question.....keep renting or buy? Never mind the used vs new--for the purposes of this post I will assume new stuff.

A complete rig, main, reserve, harness and conatiner is gonna cost around $6000.00. OUCH, right? Well, maybe not so much ouch.

Rental rigs--one size fits none--with canopies that have seen a lot of jumps cost around $25.00 per jump--less if you can rent by the day--but not much less unless you can cram a shitload of jumps into one day.

Now--let's talk resale. (I'll get back to rent vs buy in a minute). Spend $6000.00 today and probably sell it all for about $4000.00 to $5000.00 a year or two later providing it's all still in good shape--not to mention that new gear two years from now is probably going to be more expensive so your resale will track that.

Renting gear costs around $1000.00 for 40 jumps and for VERY used gear. Starting to see my drift? The new gear layout is high--BUT--the resale is too. The new gear fits you like a custom made suit. So--you need to put between 40 and 80 jumps on the new stuff to break even with the rentals. Not hard to do in one year--or maybe two.

Anybody see any flaws with this?

[Basz002 0]

There are some annual costs associated with owning gear you would need to take into account: inspection/repack costs, depreciation of your AAD, possibly insurance costs.

Back when I was looking at my own gear, my local rigger estimated the break-even between renting and owning to be at around 70 jumps per year. Fewer jumps and you are better of renting, more and you are better off buying.

[shift 0]

This was why I decided to get my own gear. Plus, its mine. I take care of my stuff, as I have a very good reason to do so. Plus it fits, its new, its pretty, etc... Also I dont have to worry about getting to the DZ and finding out the rig I use is not available (once because of an AAD battery issue, once because it was already rented). I'm 6'3" so the available rigs at my DZ were limited.

When I was looking at used gear I found that a lot of canopies/reserves/AADs were basically priced depending on how much life they had left. So I could pay 1/2 price for an AAD 1/2 way through its lifespan, or full price and have it last twice as long. I'd rather just go new in that case if I can afford it.

I just wish I only spent $6k lol

[NWFlyer 2]

katzas

Renting gear costs around $1000.00 for 40 jumps and for VERY used gear. Starting to see my drift? The new gear layout is high--BUT--the resale is too. The new gear fits you like a custom made suit. So--you need to put between 40 and 80 jumps on the new stuff to break even with the rentals. Not hard to do in one year--or maybe two.

Anybody see any flaws with this?

Other than adding in the ongoing maintenance costs that you incur as the owner, I'd say the biggest flaw is that it assumes a binary decision between new gear and renting, when there's a third option that pencils out even better, which is buying some or all of the rig's components used.

AADs are harder to find used these days, but they do have a pretty linear depreciation so if you can lay out the cash for a new one, there's a fairly predictable depreciation for each year that you own it. It's also the one piece of equipment that you can move from rig to rig if you decide to downsize.

Otherwise, unless you're a size outlier (really tall, really short, really big, really small) you can most likely find everything you need for a rig on the used market (and even if you're an outlier, you can get a custom built container and find used canopies).

Then the rent vs. buy equation becomes even more favorable towards buying. Relatively recent used gear will not only cost you less to start, it will generally hold its value better than new gear, as someone else has already taken the initial "new car" depreciation hit for you.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[wasatchrider 0]

Ive spent a total of $1500 on purchase total and never rented ever

BASE 1519

[councilman24 36]

What also isn't discussed is the value of having the rig available when you want it, knowing it's maintenance and jump history, knowing how it's been treated, always jumping the exact same rig, having a rig that fits you and is appropriate for your skill level and performance desires, etc. All of this refers to your LAST CHANCE TO LIVE. To me having full control of the rig is priceless.

As menitioned above this calculation should not be done using new gear costs. You aren't renting state of the art brand knew gear in most/all cases. It's not like buying versus leasing a new car and I don't know of anyone leasing new rigs yet. I'd guess value of most rental rigs is around $2500. Maybe more depending on age of AAD.

And in my opinion no one should be buying a new rig as their first rig. Unless they're an oil prince or equivalent that can spend $6000 a year on gear.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[JohnnyBoulder 1]

I recently went through the same dilemma. Ultimately I arrived at a cost doesn't matter conclusion.

- Canopy. I do not like having a different canopy every jump. Granted often I could get the same canopy, but I found myself going from seven to nine cells, different sizes, and so on. I think flying the same canopy has tremendous safety benefits and is more enjoyable.

- Comfort. I'm beat up biomechanically. Comfort is a big one for me. I will throw fit in here too. Some rigs, not that they hurt more than another, just feel awkward on me.

- Safety. Not saying rental gear is unsafe, but knowing I bought it new, take care of it, etc. gives me piece of mind. Plus, I'm a huge fan of the skyhook and very few of the rental rigs at my DZ have skyhooks. Call me paranoid, but I also like having a new AAD.

- Availability. Yep, I've had times when there wasn't a rig available, or I had to choose a huge parachute. Plenty of time standing over the packer waiting to pounce.

- Cosmetic. Ok, maybe silly, but I will admit I like having my own rig on my back, the way it looks, etc. I also have bicycles with custom painted frames too.

Anyway, those are the main reasons off the top of my head. Once I thought about it, I didn't care whether renting made more sense financially. But I think if you do the math you come out ahead if you jump a lot. Btw, I went with all new gear. Built for me, my colors, exactly what I want. Even ended up with two new mains. I don't regret my purchases at all. Life is short, pick your financial battles somewhere else in my book.

[BigMikeH77 0]

Some folks can buy an all new rig right off the bat, some can't. I agree it DOES make lots of good sense to consider, when buying your first, that you will be downsizing most likely and learning more about different disciplines... And if you spend $6k+ on all new stuff then come to find out it doesn't suit your fancy in a season or two, then you'll end up taking that "new car hit".

I went polar and extreme opposite. I knew what I wanted, got an older C/H that needed some updating and TLC and a reserve that is in fine shape.. Getting the main I had planned for next month finally. It took a while but when its all done I'll have a good, reliable rig at an extremely reasonable price. In the mean time though, I'm jumping less because the cost of a rental doubles what it would cost me to jump my own gear.

If you can swing new stuff right out of starving student status, then good on you. If you can't that's cool too, now you've got a goal to work towards.

[sammielu 3]

I do think there is some some grey area where renting makes sense between getting that A and getting your own gear.

Renting through the transition between oversized student canopies down to something reasonably sized (for a beginner - like a 190 or a 170) makes much more financial sense than student-jumping a 210 or 230, purchasing a 190, then needing to purchase a 170 after 70ish jumps to put a jumper closer to a 1:1 wingloading.

For a newly licensed jumper with 25ish jumps, there is also benefit to continuing to jump while they take the time to find, purchase, and assemble a complete rig. New skills fade fast, and rigs can take a long time to find!

Also, the jumpers with bright shiny new custom gear scare me; shiny and new means money, but $$ doesn't mean safety, or smart, or current, or heads-up.

[JohnnyBoulder 1]

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Also, the jumpers with bright shiny new custom gear scare me; shiny and new means money, but $$ doesn't mean safety, or smart, or current, or heads-up.

So used or rental gear means safety?

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Renting through the transition between oversized student canopies down to something reasonably sized (for a beginner - like a 190 or a 170) makes much more financial sense than student-jumping a 210 or 230, purchasing a 190, then needing to purchase a 170 after 70ish jumps to put a jumper closer to a 1:1 wingloading.

I agree that downsizing is a consideration. If someone plans to keep going down and fly small, high performance canopies, an all new rig up front would be costly. I did what you suggest here - rented while my new gear was on order. I have no plans to fly anything smaller than a 150. My container is built around a 170. I currently have a Pulse 190 (same pack volume as a 170). I should not need to buy a new container.

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And in my opinion no one should be buying a new rig as their first rig. Unless they're an oil prince or equivalent that can spend $6000 a year on gear.

Well, as a matter of fact, I am an oil prince. Ok, not ... Seriously though, I could cough up $6K every year for gear, but would not want to do so. I probably have around $10.5K invested right now with new container, reserve, AAD, reserve, and two mains. When the time comes, I will sell my 190. I will eat one to two hundred dollars more than if I had the bought canopy used. Although one very experienced canopy guru mentioned I may want to fly the larger canopy during winter when making fewer jumps. Anyway, my point is that container, reserve, AAD will not change. So I don't know why I would need to be spending $6K per year on gear.

[Southern_Man 0]

There is some safety and learning value of using the same main canopy every jump instead of using different canopies (model, size, condition) on every jump.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[hokierower 0]

The choice was clear to me which is why I bought my first set of gear for $3,000 (3 separate purchases) at Jump 14 and put my first jump on it at Jump 20. $1,600 for a very used (2,000+ jumps in about 5 years) Wings that was still very nice and looked new and a PDR 176, $1,200 for a Spectre 190, and $200 for a Cypres I with 1.5yrs left on it.

Since then I only bought used up until my new Curv. Other than that, every main, reserve, & AAD I've bought have been used.

It definitely makes sense to buy your own gear. But I suggest piecing together your rig vs. buying a full setup and paying the premium that comes with that.

[katzas 0]

Good observations. However--and this is a BIG however--try finding compatible and in good shape used HC, main and reserve when you are six one, 210 lbs and a conservative pilot. Throw in that the life of a canopy even if only moderately used is 15 years or so (have a letter from a major manufacturer that says they wouldn't pack any reserve older than that). I have been looking for about a year and a half for the right stuff. I did find a couple--BUT the price for that used gear was so close to the new prices it didn't make sense to buy used.
As to ongoing maintenance costs---yes--repacks twice a year will run you between $100 and $150. A Cypress requires 4 year returns and will cost about $250 each time. Burn a hole in a canopy and it will cost you to repair it. But, as some of the other responders pointed out--there is more to the decision than pure numbers. Ultimately, the decision to buy all new vs used also has intangibles like fit, knowing that the stuff on your back is new, it fits, and you know where it has been since your last jump. If somebody can find used gear that is cost effective and perfect for him or her--fantastic. I haven't been able to do that hence my decision to make it all shiny new. BTW, i did order a new Icon NexGen a couple of weeks ago--and since then Aeordyne raised the price by about 10%. I got in under the wire--and Aerodyne just gave me a little gift when it comes to resale.

[Kat4821 0]

Its extremely difficult to buy used stuff for us "somewhat oversized individuals".

I am 6'3'' about 200 lbs. Finding a container that fit me new was almost damn near impossible as most skydivers I know are much shorter than me. Im not fat, just tall and lean (or lanky).

When I used to race motorcycles I always ran into the problem that nothing "off the rack" ever fit me. We wear pretty extensive leather suits that are meant to protect your skin and ass in the event of a fall off. If you go to big, then the leather grabs the road and sends you tumbling (which in essence increases of the odds of breaking bones). If you buy too small, well lets just say it isn't good for the boys and you can't move around on the bike like you should. The only option for me was to buy a new, custom fit leather suit at 2k for 1 suit… it sucked but after my last off, it was WELL worth the money to save my behind.

[JohnnyBoulder 1]

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... new vs used also has intangibles

New gear costs a premium, but then you get something for that premium. Each individual must determine whether the additional cost yields a greater trade-off in value for themselves.

I identify with with the Katzas and Kat4821 ... I have a lot of bio-mechanical problems, so maximizing fit is of key importance for comfort and less pain. I have a beefier upper body compared to most of my height and lower chest circumference. I have lots of problems finding shirts, pants, etc. that fit right.

Those same points apply to car purchases as well. I am guessing some folks who espouse used gear have purchased a new car. Again, it comes down to what is important to an individual. I have a bicycle that would cost $11K to build. I remember a guy freaking out about how much my bicycle cost as we talked in a parking lot. He had a newer decked out SUV while I was driving a 1995 Honda Accord with 170k miles.

Side note: I skydived 30+ years ago in high school before I went off to college. I started off with borrowed military gear, remember the old belly reserves and T-10 rounds? I worked as a bus boy and my cash was tight. Then I bought a very used rig with a 24' Sparrow (round) canopy. The rig didn't even have a 3-ring release system. Now that I'm older I look back and shiver. When I got back into the sport it just seemed that buying the best gear available was the right choice for me. And I'm lucky to have an occupation, well at least most of the time (100% commission), that allows me to cough up the cash for brand new gear.

PS That said, if anyone has a C17 J3K Javelin with an articulated harness, Phat reserve handle, SLS, and Skyhook built for someone just under 5'8 with a short torso relative to that height, 32" inseam, 30" waist, let me know!

[katzas 0]

One flaw in the 70 jump break even point (renting vs buying). That's 70 X $25 = $1750 PER YEAR. So--if you jump 70 times in the first year of your skydiving career it costs $1750. Do the same number in year two and it's 2X or $3500.00. At the end of the first or second year all you have is a stack of rental receipts and not a rig you can re-sell if you wish. I don't know of anyone who has taken a $3500.00 hit on a two year old rig when he sells it. Now--if all you ever do is 70 jumps in your life--well that's another story.

[Alexg3265 0]

JohnnyBoulder

I recently went through the same dilemma. Ultimately I arrived at a cost doesn't matter conclusion.

- Canopy. I do not like having a different canopy every jump. Granted often I could get the same canopy, but I found myself going from seven to nine cells, different sizes, and so on. I think flying the same canopy has tremendous safety benefits and is more enjoyable.

- Comfort. I'm beat up biomechanically. Comfort is a big one for me. I will throw fit in here too. Some rigs, not that they hurt more than another, just feel awkward on me.

- Safety. Not saying rental gear is unsafe, but knowing I bought it new, take care of it, etc. gives me piece of mind. Plus, I'm a huge fan of the skyhook and very few of the rental rigs at my DZ have skyhooks. Call me paranoid, but I also like having a new AAD.

- Availability. Yep, I've had times when there wasn't a rig available, or I had to choose a huge parachute. Plenty of time standing over the packer waiting to pounce.

- Cosmetic. Ok, maybe silly, but I will admit I like having my own rig on my back, the way it looks, etc. I also have bicycles with custom painted frames too.

Anyway, those are the main reasons off the top of my head. Once I thought about it, I didn't care whether renting made more sense financially. But I think if you do the math you come out ahead if you jump a lot. Btw, I went with all new gear. Built for me, my colors, exactly what I want. Even ended up with two new mains. I don't regret my purchases at all. Life is short, pick your financial battles somewhere else in my book.

Yes, everything said here. +1 couldn't have said it better. I also like knowing that if I ever have to pull silver, I'm the only one to blame no matter what happens. I'm a control freak. What?

I was that kid jumping out if his tree house with a bed sheet. My dad wouldn't let me use the ladder to try the roof...

[IJskonijn 38]

I find the 70 jump break-even point a bit high. Maybe costs etc are different in North America than they are here in Europe, but I'm at ~50 jumps/year break-even point for my stuff.

The detailed calculations (I am rounding everything to the nearest €10):
I bought my gear second-hand for €1920 (including inspection, repack, gearbag etc.). It's fairly old gear (rig&reserve are '91, main is '96), but with 7 years left on the AAD. So let's assume that it has 4 years of useful life left, excluding the AAD. Let's also assume that I cannot resell it for more than a case of beer at the end.

Yearly costs:
- €100 write-off on the AAD
- €310 write-off on the rest ( (€1920-€700)/4 = €310)
- twice €180 for the reserve repack and maintenance (based on my last few bills, which actually include non-maintenance improvements like front-riser diveloops etc.)

This means my gear costs me €770 every year. At my home DZ, rental price is €15/jump, so my break-even point is 51 jumps.

The 4 years useful life is probably low-balled, since I am careful with it and maintain it well. For the same reason, the resale-value is probably more than zero at the end. All of this will only further decrease the jumps/year break-even point.

And this doesn't even take into account the non-monetary benefits of having your own gear, already mentioned earlier in this thread. So basically, unless you don't even jump enough to stay current, getting your own gear is beneficial as soon as you find a canopy that you want to stick with for more than 50 jumps.

[NickyCal 17]

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The choice was clear to me which is why I bought my first set of gear for $3,000 (3 separate purchases) at Jump 14 and put my first jump on it at Jump 20.

This is exactly where I sit and I can't tell you how pleased I am with my used gear purchase. As a petite female, jumping student gear was uncomfortable, not to mention an obstacle to learning to fly my body (the rig sticking out every which way did some flying of its own!). So when a perfectly fitting used rig with excellent credentials and lots of good years left on her main became available, I snatched it up. I was paying $25/jump to rent ill-fitting student gear, there was only one rig at the DZ that fit me at all, I had to wait for that rig when it was already in use or needed to be packed -- it just made sense to take the financial hit early on instead of throwing away money on the rental with every jump.

Last weekend, at jump number 18, I jumped her for the first time. Also my first jump on my own pack job. It was the best feeling! And then being able to land, walk to the packing area, pack her up and just go again. I've only got 3 jumps on her now, but already I am in love. The fit is amazing. The canopy flies beautifully. And she's ALL MINE. If you think that you're going to be in the sport for awhile, even if like me, you may only make 50-100 jumps each year, there are so many benefits to having your own rig even outside of the financial considerations. You pack it, you maintain it, you know that canopy like a part of your own body. Like I said, only three jumps and I'm already in love with my girl. We're going to have lots of fun times together! And that, my friends, is priceless.

[katzas 0]

Yes, yes and yes. It's amazing what a difference it makes when the stuff actually fits. My last jump on rented gear felt like a fight between me and the gear to see who was in charge during freefall. Damn thing was sliding around on my back and I found myself having to compensate for either center of gravity changes or aerodynamic changes to keep flying properly. Now, maybe the rig wasn't adjusted properly--but when I put it on it sure felt like it was--as well as a one size fits none rig could be. It opened well enough--and my landing was uneventful but it sure didn't feel like the old rig I used to have that was made for me. Happy for you that you could find a used rig that worked for you. If I had been able to do that I sure would have. Will post again after my first jump on my brand new NexGen.

[Di0 1]

There is also another reason, the smallest canopy you find on rental gear are 190s, and I only know of one place around herethat offers 170s down to 150s.
Maybe there are more, I don't know for sure, that's what I stumbled upon reading websites of DZs, no serious "research", but for sure it's hard to find anything smaller that "big-fat" canopies.
I find flying "MY" canopy so much more rewarding than flying a borrowed canopy that is different every time.

I rented gear until I was comfortable going one size smaller than the smallest canopy they had at my DZ, that I think is the best use of money I could make without waiting too long.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[mrkeske 0]

My opinion, rent until you downsize to a canopy small enough that you will need at least 100+ jumps to downsize again. Get a container that will let you downsize within that same container. Don't forget to have an RSL, unless you are going to do CReW, get an RSL/MARD (Skyhook). This should be you first equipment, in my opinion. That is what I did!!!

Also take into account if you jump only one DZ or many. Before I bought my first rig I jumped 4 different DZs, and every DZ has different equipments in different states, that adds some extra risk to your skydiving (always renting a different rig)

[katzas 0]

Well, here I am replying to my own post.

I ordered a new Icon Nexgen and a new PD reserve. I intended to put a 210 sq ft Pilot or it's equivalent into the rig but haven't ordered it yet because I wanted to demo a couple of different canopies before making that decision--which, btw, you can demo three different canopies over six weeks for about $300.00 if you time the demos right. I have been diligently searching the ads for that genre of canopy to no avail--until this week Suddenly there are three used Pilots for sale. Okie dokie--let's have a look. One is pushing 300 jumps and the asking price is about $1500. The other two have about 60 jumps on them--both about $1850. Obvious choice, right? No. The canopy with 300 jumps is closing in on a re-line which costs about $250.00 to $310 making the real cost about $1700 to $1800 or between $200 and $300 difference to a brand new canopy. The other two are within $150.00 of a brand new canopy (to be fair one canopy is ZPX--all black but with dacron lines--re-line to micro line and ka-ching--$300.00). So--what's the decision going to be? Unless one of those sellers is willing to accept a significantly lower offer--its gonna be new--with the colors I want, the line material I want, etc. To me, $150.00 difference between a new canopy that I design and a used canopy with who knows what kind of history is mice nuts difference.

[skez 0]

I was also suprised how much second hand canopies go for...for couple hundred difference I would go new to..i only get second hand if its really cheap lol evan canopy im using now costs me $300 and is good canopy

FTMC