diverdriver 5 #1 March 26, 2002 This is the preliminary report on the crash of a Cessna Caravan. The pilot was a well known jump pilot from Ohio.http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20020326X00397&key=1Chris SchindlerATP/CFIID-19012www.DiverDriver.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #2 March 26, 2002 Thanx on the post...QuoteAnother employee reported that the airplane had ice on both wings, both wing struts, and the fuselage.The employee estimated the thickness of the ice accumulation to be 1/8 to 1/2 inch.Yikes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverds 0 #3 March 26, 2002 Ice is scary stuff. I hope I never find myself in that position. -Dave"Gas...Undercarriage...Mixture...Prop...Beer" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wingnut 0 #4 March 26, 2002 all i have to say is damn!! i have jumped at the dz this pilot flew at, but did not know him...andyman knew him very well..... looks like things were just stacked against him this night....r.i.p........."i may not go to heven, i hope you go to hell"-C.C. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #5 March 26, 2002 Well, you know how they say that an accident is a series of events leading up to it like links in a chain. One.....thinking you can take off with ice still on the aircraft. That right there turns my stomach. There is no such thing as "a little ice". It's a clean wing or it's not.Two: receiving a report that a previous aircraft had declared an emergency due to ice in the same area tells me ya need to wait it out.Three: temperature on the ground was 30 F with precipitation which means the precipitation is VERY moist. The colder the air gets the less moisture it can hold. When running around near the freezing mark great care needs to be given for the potential of accumulating lots of ice on the airframe.Chris SchindlerATP/CFII Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #6 March 26, 2002 Diver~I find it interesting to note as well, that there seems to be a series of incidences both in aircraft and in skydiving fatalities. Do these tend to occur in such a way, or is this an anomolie?BIt only takes a little pixie dust...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #7 March 26, 2002 Ice sucks!! Semper Fi ..... http:// www.aahit.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #8 March 26, 2002 Yes, some are obvious, some are not. Sometimes there can be clues that would lead you to believe that an accident was inevitable and then it's just a string "in the moment". This is part of why this accident will be listed on my site. No, it didn't happen with jumpers on board. But it was a jump pilot and jump plane part of the time. I think in order to support jump operations or expensive aircraft we will see more operations run cargo. These will be challenges that could be seen by other jump pilots in the future.It should also serve as a warning to other jump pilots who take jumpers on "road trips" with the aircraft and aren't rated for the conditions they are flying in. Mark was totally rated to be running cargo and on instrument flight. And the conditions still got to him. Let's look at Salt Lake, Utah January 2001. King Air in a snow storm with jumpers returning from a boogie. Aircraft was not rated for instrument flying. The pilot was not current to be flying in instrument conditions. The NTSB report says the pilot had been known to "scud run". Pattern?Chris SchindlerATP/CFIID-19012www.DiverDriver.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #9 March 26, 2002 Scud run pattern? Semper Fi ..... http:// www.aahit.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverds 0 #10 March 26, 2002 Probably means he liked to fly vfr with very low cloud layers.-Dave"Gas...Undercarriage...Mixture...Prop...Beer" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jceman 1 #11 March 26, 2002 Quotethere seems to be a series of incidences both in aircraft and in skydiving fatalities. Do these tend to occur in such a way, or is this an anomolie?One of the main thngs they talked about in my training class as a Safety NCO in the AF was that there never is one simple cause for any 'accident'. There is a pattern of cascading events that lead to nasty endings.I have since observed that in most any type of activity -- even things as simple as a child knocking over a glass of Kool-Aid:If the parent had placed it properly on the table and/orIf the child had paid closer attention to where his arm was when he turned around and/orIf the glass was had not 'sweated' and become slippery and/orIf there had been less Kool-Aid in the glass, making it lighterThen the glass would not have gotten spilled.This is a very long winded way of saying that your observation is spot on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #12 March 26, 2002 bbarnhouse,Not quite sure what you are driving at, but my interpretation is that the same accidents keep getting repeated. The only thing that changes is the date and the location.For about 20 years, I read accident reports in Parachutist magazine religiously. Reading those accident reports cured me of several bad habits. Recently I quit reading accident reports because they all started to blur together. It got to the point where I could be reading an accident report from 1982 or 1992 or 2002 and it all seemed the same. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #13 March 26, 2002 RB~I should have clarified. I am aware that the "same" kind of accidents in skydiving have led to fatalities; it just appeared to be quite a few in such a short period of time rather like the rule of threes. I am also aware of the fact that there are series of events that lead up to each occurance. I was just wondering about the time frame and should have stated so.Thanks!It only takes a little pixie dust...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PalmettoTiger 1 #14 March 26, 2002 Quoteit just appeared to be quite a few in such a short period of time rather like the rule of threes.A bit of statistics. If you've got events that could happen at any time (i.e. randomly), it's very very unlikely that they'll be spaced out evenly. We see clumps all the time, but aren't picky about what exactly makes a clump. (If things all happen at the end of the year, it's a clump. If they happen at the beginning of the year, or the middle, or in late March then again in mid April, etc. etc. it's a clump.) But we have a very specific idea about even spacing, so the number of spacings we see and think "even" is waaaaaay smaller than the number of spacings we see and think "clump." PTigerI'm stepping through the doorAnd I'm floating in a most peculiar way Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #15 March 26, 2002 Thanks Tig......no wonder I hated statistics! LOLCheersIt only takes a little pixie dust...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #16 March 26, 2002 Thanks Chris.My heart sank when I read about him taking off with ice. I wonder if that small amount might've given him the margin to make the airportIt was truely bizarre reading his last words._AmICQ: 5578907MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com AIM: andrewdmetcalfeYahoo IM: ametcalf_1999 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #17 March 26, 2002 AOPA-Pilot has a "Never again" section about pilot mistakes and the results. One especially chilling one was a Skymaster pilot who found himself in severe icing conditions. He had to shut down the forward engine because it was shaking so much. (The Skymaster has a forward and rear engine, and the rear engine is sort of automatically deiced by the engine's exhaust.) Ice built up until he could no longer maintain altitude, and he began a slow descent towards one of the Great Lakes, which was partially frozen. He got ready to ditch, knowing he probably woudn't survive long after hitting the ice and punching through.He got to about 5 feet above the ice, entered ground effect, and stayed there. The ground effect gave him just enough extra L/D to keep flying. He wasn't sure what to do - try to find an airport on the water that had no obstacles around it? Ditch it near a beach? Suddenly some ice fell off, and he realized that the air over the open patches of water was a little warmer than freezing. He kept aiming for them (hard to do, because he couldn't see out the windshield) and gradually enough ice fell away that he could begin to climb again. He landed safely at an airport near the lake.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #18 March 27, 2002 QuoteI wonder if that small amount might've given him the margin to make the airport.Ummm, there is no such thing as "a little ice". And after reading what the ramp personnel described as still being on the aircraft it sounds like a lot. I don't know what the weight of a square foot of 1/2 inch ice would be but over the whole aircraft it can be a huge amount. You just don't take off unless the whole aircraft is clean. Period.Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #19 March 27, 2002 Chris, I read the report and am shaking my head....why, why and why?....just unbelievable.....I am sure this guy was a great jump pilot and good friend..but this is just unbelievably bad decision making as a pilot...marcBSBD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #20 March 27, 2002 Chris....I understand that you meant well, but I don't really think this is appropriate.. He was not involved in skydiving operations, and Mark never exhibited poor judgement that I saw in all the time that I jumped at Aerohio.....Mark was a friend of mine...please leave it alone..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #21 March 27, 2002 Quote And after reading what the ramp personnel described Oh....and one more comment....when was the last time you believed a ramp rat when it came to something relating to flying the aircraft? Most of those guys never even graduated high school, much less have any flying experience..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
