DZ Business Practices

[PhillyKev 0]

"The client never finds out. It is called research and if you do not know the customers of your competitors how do you succeed?"
If you're following them, they could notice, and ask you about it. How would you respond? If you tell the truth, they find out, if you lie...well....
"if you do not know the customers of your competitors how do you succeed?"
By knowing your customers and potential customers and what their needs are.
"What are the strengths and weaknesses of their product and how can we grow from that?"
What are the strengths and weaknesses of your own product? Instead of trying to beat the other guy, what about putting out the best product you can. If you concentrate on your competition, you'll only ever produce a marginally better product for your consumers. By focusing on what your consumers needs are and what you can provide them irregardless of the competition, you'll be more successful.
"How do you gather that information? Is it produce a product and hope that it does well in the market and watch it sink? No. It is by watching the competition succeed and gain information on their successes and failures."
True, but I don't understand how spying on your customers accomplishes that. Has anyone thought of asking them who they use, maybe doing some market research of the customers? What about honestly seeking out this information through trade organizations, publications, flat out questioning consumers instead of sneaking around.
"There are absolutely no slimy tactics involved in understanding the realities of our competition and knowledgeable about the customers particular needs."
Following someone without their knowledge is slimy. My opinion and I'm sure shared by a lot of people including most of your customers and some of your competitors.
"You gain commitment by opening and nurturing relationships; not just closing sales."
And by being honest with your customers and meeting their needs to the best of your ability. Not squeeking in just under the competition. The ethical approach would be to price yourselves fairly so that you make a profit and provide a good price to the customer. Not price yourself as high as possible but just low enough to beat the other guy.
"It is about understanding your competition and not downgrading the competition. "
True, but there are other ways to go about that then what you described. Personally I see these tactics as comparable to someone bidding on a job in a closed bid but secretly seeing what the competition was bidding. That does not benefit the consumer. And the number one goal of any business should be the benefit of their consumer while maintaining profit. If profit is the sole motivation and properly servicing the consumer is only done to ensure that profit, I don't consider that an ethically sound business.
cielos azules y cerveza fría
-Kevin

[AggieDave 6]

If you want a good example of what not to do, which is just about everything I've read in the original post, go look at what an Internet company called "DoubleClick" did. Talk about freak'n slimy and on the verge of invasion of privacy (IMHO it was waaay beyond that and I thought that they were invading privacy).
"Are they short-shorts?" T.B.

[ChromeBoy 0]

I understand and respect your thoughts on this subject and I agree / disagree on different aspects of the point you are trying to communicate, however,

Quote

If profit is the sole motivation and properly servicing the consumer is only done to ensure that profit, I don't consider that an ethically sound business.

Outside of the skydiving / friends / family world my motivation is profit. To make as much money in the shortest amount of time as possible so I can retire early and not have to work as hard.
Is this hateful? I think not. Is this deceiving? Again, I disagree. Why do we have a business anyways. To enjoy life. Is it about being the richest person in the world or having the most power? That's not my goals or the point I was trying to make here.
The point I was trying to make is that at the end of the day if what you are doing is for a living it is all about profit. If you are in the industry you love, as in skydiving, it is for the better. But do you not want to be the best at what you do? Or do you just want to blend in and breathe. I know I want to be the best. It is not about deceiving or lying to anyone. It is about the way you structure your business, no matter what it is!

[PhillyKev 0]

Do a quick search on ethics in business....many public codes of conduct out there. Here's some excerpts from a couple that were repeated in most of them and your company seems to not conform to...
We will not violate the confidential and private information of our customers or clients or use it for our own personal interest. We further pledge to honor the trust of our clients and customers by giving them our best advice and recommendations, putting their interests above our own.
Always protect legitimate client and customer interests. Give them the information they need to make wise decisions.
Not make use of any client resources for personal advantage without prior client permission.
Not misrepresent or withhold facts about our business policies, warranties, or the quality of our products or services.
Be ethical and honest in all of our business and professional relationships. Follow and support the following of the Golden Rule.
6. Demand honesty in sales representation whether offered through the medium of a verbal or written statement, an advertisement, or a sample of the product.
7. Receive consent of originator of proprietary ideas and designs before using them for competitive purchasing purposes.
cielos azules y cerveza fría
-Kevin

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

It is about the way you structure your business, no matter what it is!

That's my main point. Any business that is founded on making a profit, is doomed to fail, or at least not be the best in its field. Businesses that are founded on a vision of providing a product or service are what succeed. It's all about motivation. If you're motivated by profit, money, and greed, you may have the best/biggest company, but that doesn't make it ethical (microsoft, enron, andersen). And the same goes for people as employees. If you just care about cashing your pay check and getting away with doing as little as possible for the highest pay off, you're in effect stealing. The true path to success is to do the best job possible for whoever you're working for, whether it's a company or a client. You may get to the top of the heap through other methods, but personally I wouldn't consider them ethical.
cielos azules y cerveza fría
-Kevin

[skyhawk 2]

ok im surprised the business is still operating, im studing to become a big business owner and i have no morals a. all of that costs a hell of a lot of money i.e wages (for the ppl spying), paying people in the target company for information, other expenses eg taxis food etc
b. you would get to much information, assume your say pepsi right you dont really care what car they drive or what there favourite colour is you only want information that is usefull.
c. reputation, if it gets out a. the public will not buy there and if the companys find out they will talk to other companys in the industry to get you closed down.
i could go on on but i dont care that much 1. do good hard proper research that is usefull for eg
http://www.pepsi.com.au/v1/information_marketing.htm
most companys go broke/dont make much money because they dont understand the customer they dont know who they are targeting. All the big companys are big because they are very specific in who they are targeting. for eg
PEPSI MAX
18-24 year old males (bullseye 24yr old male)
Pepsi Max is an active 24 year old male. He is motivated by the pursuit of the ultimate adrenalin rush whereby pushing boundaries. His extreme lifestyle fits in with his close group of friends and their shared extreme experiences. They 'Live life to the Max'.
this is me perfectly and i drink shitloads of it, if you look at there ads it is also aimed at this group, it is advertised in the mags/shows they watch etc
2. work for the customer doesnt matter if you hate them if you make them think that they count they will not only come back but tell there friends a good example in the skydiving industy is the protrack/ditters i had heard about them way befor i saw the product or an advertisment, every couple of months someone will post a story about how they went out of there way to provide them with a free replacement/ free fix/ free book etc. this was a major part of my decision to by one especialy as it was more expensive than other products
i could go on but im getting bored if you want some more specific advice pm/email me
Opinions are like a-holes everyone has one, the only one that does you any good is yours and all that comes out is shit

[BikerBabe 0]

Funny, I was just thinking about this! I have a feeling I'm about to be voted into a position on our club/DZ board of directors, and I was wondering about this. I hadn't intended to get into the DZO thing so soon, if at all, but our DZ is so poorly managed right now even my 5 year old neice could run it better.
Being as I'm the "if you want something done you have to do it yourself" type of person, I agreed to run for the board.
So how does the new board turn it around? Consider this: Club members have running accounts, which they may or may not pay off at the end of a jump day...it just holds over until the next time we happen to have a plane in town. Did I mention we haven't had our own plane for a year? Jump Tickets are a foreign concept. Tandems are too expensive. Student gear is old. We just moved from an urban airport to one in the middle of nowhere that won't let us land on the airport. Our only advertising (besides the phone book) was canopies in the sky adjacent to the interstate. The current board made no real attempt to advertise. .
I'm not going to go all cutthroat, because ethics are important to me (plus, we're the only DZ within 300 miles...), but we need to do something to turn it around. Basically, we have to start running the DZ as a business, and I know there will be people who will want to give us shit about it.
Anybody know of any resources out there for new DZ's? Since we're kind of starting over (we finally have our own airplane), I'm probably gonna consider it like a brand new DZ.

[skyhawk 2]

i could prob give you some help advice wise if you want just pm /email me
Opinions are like a-holes everyone has one, the only one that does you any good is yours and all that comes out is shit

[Magistr8 0]

coudl you pm me those ideas as well. Our DZ needs some major advertising right now.
Whoever said comming down from a high was bad, never tried this.
Peter

[JDBoston 0]

Apart from the skydiving part of this thread, I think we're talking generalities, and it's kind of hard to have an intelligent argument about generalities.
Business practices (expected and actual) vary depending on what industry you're in. Some people here seem to be talking about consumer-focused businesses, some about businesses that sell to other businesses. Some appear to have business experience, some not.
How much should a business charge for their product or service? Should they charge just enough to pay everyone's salary? What's a fair salary? Is it "ethical" to convince the customer to pay extra for stuff that didn't cost you extra to make? Also bear in mind that more profitable companies are generally more CAPABLE than less profitable companies of providing reliable, long-lasting customer support. It's a little more complicated than "businesses that only care about profit vs. businesses that only care about customers."
So ChromeBoy, what specific kind of business are you in?
Joe

[GrumpySmurf 0]

My take is, we are still a cottage industry where everyone pretty much knows everyone - this level of personal interaction tends to hurt 'cutthroat sales' seen in other industries where things are more impersonal. Plus the sales technique in skydiving appears to be sit and wait, there is very little proactive sales by the DZ's to thier customer base, most advertising is word of mouth within the community - any bad mounthing by one DZ about another tends to backfire. As a jumper, I like it the way it is - relativly friendly and civil, but if I were to seriously invest in a DZ I thought had growth potential - I would want to see them 'run into the ground/buy out' each and every rival DZ and take thier market share (by a combination of aggressive sales and offering superior service) - 2nd place is still first loser.

[ChromeBoy 0]

Quote

We will not violate the confidential and private information of our customers or clients or use it for our own personal interest. We further pledge to honor the trust of our clients and customers by giving them our best advice and recommendations, putting their interests above our own.

In no way was I violating the customers rights. In order to be successful you have to bring your customers inside your business. Forge a strong alliance with the customer but keep the relationship simple - and close by. In order to stay ahead of the market you have to focus on your customers, not the competition.
However, you have to be informed about the competition and play karate with them. Turn their disadvantage into your profit. Are you going to be happy if you make the same revenues as others in your same industry?
Every employer that I have worked for wants to go for hyper growth. I don't mean to offend anyone by the way I was educated and trained to be the best. There is no reason for this thread to be a debate. My only thought was that I can see some dzo's though processes. As others in this thread have said this is a business and they have to ensure they do all they can to make payments each month as well as have a return to the initial investors even if it is just themselves.

[rgoper 0]

your conception of business practices may raise a few eyebrows, but only to those down the chain. i've been in the petroleum industry all of my adult working life, and i gaurentee you, you'd better be wearing a flak jacket ALL the time, not so much of fear of being shot, but to keep the daggers from penetrating your back (especially when it's turned) dog-eat-dog, every man for himself, you have to stay in "survival mode" 100% of the time. OTOH, i, personally am "lone wolf" in my profession, i have seen men steal twice in one day what they make in a day, i seen free trips, golf games, guys on the "take" free whisky, free beer, free women, free drugs, you name it, i've seen it, it'z WAY fukked up. everybody that knows me in my profession says "man, i sure wished i had your job so i could drive a new car and truck all the time" i just tell them, believe me, you DON'T want my job. at the end of the day, every man/woman has GOT to know the're limitations, what they will and/or will not do, and mosy of all, ya still have to be able to sleep well at night. i can honestly say (and i've lost a few jobs because of this) "i've NEVER taken anything that doesn't belong to me, ever" imagine being canned because your boss knows, that you know he's on "the take" and you won't go along with it, so you get canned, to keep you from letting "the cat out of the bag" yeah, you don't want my job, trust me. this kind of puts everything else into perspective, doesn't it?
Richard
"Live To Dive, Dive To Live"

[billvon 2,434]

>As a jumper, I like it the way it is - relativly friendly and civil, but if I were to
> seriously invest in a DZ I thought had growth potential - I would want to see
>them 'run into the ground/buy out' each and every rival DZ and take thier market
> share (by a combination of aggressive sales and offering superior service) - 2nd
>place is still first loser.
May you never own a DZ, then. I don't know of anyone who considers either Perris or Elsinore (two competitors) the "first loser." The sport would be worse off if either one was "run into the ground."
-bill von

[bbarnhouse 0]

hummmm. me thinks there's nothing wrong with a bit o' "healthy" competition. ..* sings the big, big fish eat the big fish, the big fish eats the littler fish.........
It only takes a little pixie dust......

[PhreeZone 15]

I know that in the past the DZ I jump at loaned out its planes to near by DZ's for special things like a scattering of Ashes dive/boogie and then doing a multi state record weekend by taking off at one DZ, droping over the other DZ then doing the same thing in the other way the next load. While jumpers between the DZ's seem to have bad blood... the DZ's don't... Seems like infact they *HELP* each other sometimes.... waht a novel concept...
"Hey.. Its my camera, and my remote... I'll rewind if I want to!" ~ Goat #2

[bbarnhouse 0]

Ok call me nieve (don't really) but do you truly believe that there is "bad blood" between jumpers at various DZ's?
It only takes a little pixie dust......

[GrumpySmurf 0]

Yo-who! Now I can chawk up with, "May you never have offspring.", "May you never own a DZ." Near as I can tell, the only people who make money out of skydiving are the packers. The overhead of running a DZ along with being subject to the whims of government and weather pretty much rule out making any real (if any) money off of it. *shrug*

[Topcat 0]

Quote

My question is that these instances occur in businesses everyday. This is part of staying competitive and keeping an increase in revenue year over year. However, when I hear different people discuss how dropzones operate and the certain practices they have that, "are not fair or nice to other dropzones," I don't understand. I understand and appreciate the loyalty some of us have to the DZ's we belong too but why judge a dropzone by a business decision the DZO made?

Most skydivers don't judge dropzones by the DZO's business practices unless those practices affect them. I know some people who boycott certain dzs because of the owners' ethics but they are the idealistic minority.
People can run their businesses any damn way they choose as long as they don't blatantly violate the laws. I try to be honest with our clients because I want to be able to look into a mirror and not hate what I see. Some dzos don't have that problem.
As for your example of offering a lower price for some tandems, in that situation I would not do that. I would point out the fact that they made a mistake and the dz they wanted was at this number. Most of the dzs in our general vicinity would do the same, and the ones who wouldn't take non-refundable deposits anyway.
I don't think it's unethical, however, to offer a lower price to someone to get their business.
Caveat emptor,
-Sandy

[billvon 2,434]

>The overhead of running a DZ along with being subject to the whims of
>government and weather pretty much rule out making any real (if any)
>money off of it. *shrug*
Q: How do you make sure you end up with a million dollars from running a drop zone?
A; Start with two million.
(old DZO joke)
-bill von

[Sebazz1 2]

Bill I thought the joke was:
Q: How do you make a small fortune running a DZ?
A: Start with a large fortune............
Same thing...lol.
SEBAZZ.......

[skyhawk 2]

coudl you pm me those ideas as well. Our DZ needs some major advertising right now.
was this to me ????
Opinions are like a-holes everyone has one, the only one that does you any good is yours and all that comes out is shit