9/11 Timeline

[freeflir29 0]

Bill......They are letting "the right people" carry Sig Sauer 229 in Sig .357 on planes. One of these days a terrorist will get the maximum opportunity to give his life for his cause.
"Here I come to save the BOOBIES!"

[SkyDekker 1,129]

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I didn't realize anyone lied about the warnings?

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Sept. 17, 2001: FBI Director Robert Mueller tells reporters that 'there were no warning signals that I'm aware of that would indicate this type of operation in the country'.

I don't really think more needs to be said.

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we couldn't have done anything about the attacks

Maybe, maybe not, though nobody ever tried........

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I didn't realize this had become a Republican vs Democrat discussion.

Nor did I. I live up in the great white north. That area where your administration immediately said all those terrorists must have come from. Only to find out that they didn't. Only to find out their own agencies gave some of them visas to legally be there.
Now we find out that their party line of: we didn't know anything about it, isn't true either.
As an outsider looking in, I am just very surprised that not more americans are somewhat angry about this.
SkyDekker
"We cannot do great things, only small things with great love" Mother Theresa

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Hmm interesting snippet from the Houston Chronicle...
>>In a speech Monday, FBI director Robert Mueller said "There will be another terrorist attack. We will not be able to stop it. It is something we all have to live with"<<
I sincerely hope he is wrong.
Cya
D
Gravity Rat # 37
Remember, we can do everything right, and still get hurt.

[kmcguffee 0]

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'there were no warning signals that I'm aware of that would indicate this type of operation in the country'.

What warning did we receive that would indicate terrorists were going to hijack four commercial planes with box cutters and fly them into the Pentagon and the World Trade Center Buildings? There were snippets of intel but not enough to call this man a liar. There might have been an intelligence failure but calling them liars is extreme based on what I know.
"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."

[Muenkel 0]

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Only to find out their own agencies gave some of them visas to legally be there.

Not that this makes our government look any smarter, but I do believe they granted those visas 6 months AFTER the attacks.
If you're not confused, you're not paying attention.
Chris

[lummy 4]

taking off shoes and rolling up pants Cause I KNOW I'm going to get KNEE deep in this quagmire
Nope, no lies.......
As quoted from SF Chronicle 5/21/02:
"White House aides have said that the FAA issued warnings to airlines and airports because of an increase in threats detected by U.S. intelligence last summer. "
Further into the Article:
"San Francisco International Airport responded in a letter that it had received eight FAA security alerts between April 18 and Sept. 11 but only one alert in August and none in early September. The Aug. 16 alert told security guards of different ways weapons could be disguised but did not mention the hijacking threat. "
Same article:
"A July 10 memorandum by a Phoenix FBI agent warned that Arabs with ties to al Qaeda were training at U.S. flight schools"
Different article, same paper, talking about the Flight School memo
"of Thomas Pickard, who was acting director in the summer of 2001 before Mueller took over early last September. Pickard and several other agents then briefed Mueller and Aschroft on its existence, the officials said"
same article...
"Spokesmen for Mueller and Ashcroft would not discuss the issue on Monday. A senior Justice Department official said: "The attorney general was not briefed in any detail or with any specificity about the document known as the Phoenix memo until about a month ago."

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but I do believe they granted those visas 6 months AFTER the attacks.

and MY personal favorite
"A probe ordered by President Bush into why student visa approval notices were sent to hijackers Mohammed Atta and Marwan Al-Shehhi -- six months after they died crashing jetliners into the World Trade Center on Sept. 11 -- found that no one at the Immigration and Naturalization Service thought to intercept the paperwork. "
One shot... HEY!!! Mas Tequila!!!! Two Shots HEY HEY!!!! Three Shots.......

[billvon 2,406]

>I don't think we should allow people with martial arts training to fly on
>commercial airlines.
Is your sarcastic remark intended to demonstrate that since we can't stop everyone who wishes to cause trouble, we shouldn't even try? If so, I disagree. We can do a better job than we were doing on 9/10, and we can do a better job than we are doing now.
-bill von

[Sebazz1 2]

There was that Indiana Jones movie were the crazy dude comes charging at him wielding the two swords swinging and dicing the air dramaticaly and Indi just pulled out his gun and shoots him on the spot.
Thats what we need air marshals for. To shoot the kung fo terrorists out there.
Sebazz........

[billvon 2,406]

>Thats what we need air marshals for. To shoot the kung fo terrorists out there.
OK, but whatever you do, don't have them wear red shirts. Those guys die like in the first 10 minutes of every Star Trek.
-bill von

[Muenkel 0]

Lummy,
I'm with you on this one dude. Excellent research.
Folks, we are all in this together. There really are very evil forces in this world and anyone who cares for humanity needs to fight it in the best way they can.
I was no fan of President Clinton, but I do believe, had he been President on 9/11, he would have had my full support.
I hate violence and I hate the fact that innocent people have died not only here in America, but also in Afghanistan. These terrorists must be stopped, not only for my future children, but all of yours too. If I was asked to give my life to stop these atrocities, I would. I would shit in my pants first, but I think I would get the courage to do it.
What is going on in this world today is pure selfishness. Suicide bombers are selfish! Politicians using any of this for their own gain are selfish!
If only every citizen of this beautiful planet would truly live the Golden Rule...if only.
If you're not confused, you're not paying attention.
Chris

[pdj6p 0]

Damn Bill, your a treky? I just lost all respect for you.
(shaking head)so sad so sad(shaking head)
Don
Death is so permanant, and I'm just not ready for that kind of committment.

[kmcguffee 0]

And the lie would be........................?
"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."

[skyhawk 2]

1. the list offered of "obvious"clues isnt even that long and it goes for years, alot of information goes thrue the intel agencies, and it goes up a chain of command eg field agent tells person above who tells person above etc etc up to the director who tells the president, now at all of these steps the have to filter out the "useless" information , sure in later on it is so obvious but seriously if you got hundreds of pieces of info on your desk a day would you take much interest in a report of a middle eastern man who is taking a flying class. can this situation be fixed, no 99.99999999% of the info recieved has no reverlence to the president then add a. he wouldnt have time to read it b.there would be such an information overload even less info would get thrue.
id be willing to bet no one agent or even group of agents where recieving the "obvious" info so it is pretty hard to get it
2. 9/11 wasnt that bad, compared to what it could of been it was a horrific event but 3000 out of the US population, hell even in australia (pop 20 million) it is only a small town.dont get me wrong it is a terrible and large loss but what if the crashed the 4 planes into the superbowl (i have no idea but big "games" over here have up to 50 000 - 70 000 ppl) so what 100 000 ppl ??? that is a lot more and with four planes hitting the same area around the same time. confusion, jet fuel falling stands etc most would die, or mayby instead the put something like anthrax in the water supply in the early morning then when everyone got up had there showers and drinks etc got sick or etc, etc
3. the airline thing if the government made them do it pre 9/11 1. there would be tons of complaints about increased fews and 2. there would be a ton of lost jobs from the lower passenger numbers (due to increased fares) and the price of the upgrades, plus the airlines would have to pay for all of it because the government couldnt, they couldnt justify the expense.
mayby rather than attacking the intelligence community we should be thanking them for all the sacrifices they have made for your country , dont think alot of agents arnt killed all the time while other countrys may be a little forgiving, terrorist groups, drug runners, crime gangs etc arnt. the hard work dedication and sacrifice that the have giving have no doubt stopped litteraly millions of deaths of US citizens over the years hell who knows without there ww1 and 2 ancestors we may be all speaking german and japanese, or the cold war ones we could all be part of the USSR or mayby al Queda sp? may have free range over the US or the already massive drug and crime syndicates and problems could be even bigger, soldiers, intellenge, presidents, business ppl even mums and dads make mistakes that effect others, some are more widspread but rather than giving blame you should be thanking them, when a soldier dies overseas defending your country he is remembered, when an agent does the same it didnt even happen
Opinions are like a-holes everyone has one, the only one that does you any good is yours and all that comes out is shit

[SkyDekker 1,129]

Skyhawk,
I agree with most of what you are saying. What bothers me though is the attitude of, why be upset, there is nothing we could have done about it anyways. In hindsight, maybe you are right, maybe there was nothing that could have been done. But, you did not know that before 9/11.......it was never even tried.
What surprises me is this "follow-the-leader" attitude. We should all just focus on the positive and not even think about the negative??
I agree that the intelligence community has sacrificed a lot and has done many positive things. However, that does change the fact that there might be a possibility that they screwed up on this one. I for one am not willing to just look the other way, just because they have done good things in the past.
As for those who truly believe they have not been lied to....I don't understand your line of thinking. To truly believe that there were no indications that this could happen.........please.....there were indications!! Granted, those indications may not have been clear. And, maybe we could not have done much with them. But, don't tell me there were no indications when there obviously were.
Disclaimer: This is just my personal opinion. It does not take away from the good and courage work the soldiers are doing. Nor does it mean that I support terrorism, far from it.
SkyDekker
"We cannot do great things, only small things with great love" Mother Theresa

[freeflir29 0]

One other point.....Even if the intel community managed to pinpoint a particular person as planning a terrorist act they might still have a hard time actually doing anything about it. I saw an interview not long ago with a retired CIA agent. Long ago he knew exactly where Abu Nidal (Marine Barracks in Beirut, Lockerbie, 1000's of other terrorist acts) was and had people that he could hire to kill him. He asked if they could capture him alive and they said "Nope, far too dangerous, but we can kill him if you like." Well, because of the "No political assasinations" law that the US has he could have been thrown in jail for a very long time for hiring these guys. So, he didn't. Form your own conclusions. This is getting to be another Vietnam scenario.....we play by rules and restrictions that we put on ourselves and the terrorists do what ever they want. Not very smart on our part.
"Here I come to save the BOOBIES!"

[PhillyKev 0]

Another piece missing from that time line is that GW decided that just happened to be a good time, barely 6 months after he's been in office, to take a 4 week vacation away from the white house. Maybe he thought it was unsafe to be there? I'm speculating, but he was taking a bunch of political flack for going on such a long vacation so early in his term. Must have had a real need to be away from DC.
cielos azules y cerveza fría
-Kevin

[kmcguffee 0]

Actually, I heard that he took the vacation because the shooter from the grassy knoll was threatening him and everyone was about to discover that we really didn't land on the moon in 1969. He wasn't actually in Texas. He went to Alpha Centauri in the space ship that crashed in Roswell and is hid in Area 51.
"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."

[billvon 2,406]

>can this situation be fixed, no 99.99999999% of the info recieved has no
> reverlence to the president then add a. he wouldnt have time to read it b.there
> would be such an information overload even less info would get thrue.
Perhaps he could take the unprecedented step of getting an intelligence expert to read it for him and pick out the important stuff. You can do stuff like that when you're president.
>2. 9/11 wasnt that bad. . . . mayby instead the put something like anthrax in the
> water supply in the early morning then when everyone got up had there showers
> and drinks etc got sick or etc, etc
Recently someone tried their level best to spread anthrax throughout the US. Total deaths? I forget the exact number, but less than 10. 9/11 was pretty bad - the highest death toll in a single non-wartime terrorist act ever, if I recall correctly.
>3. the airline thing if the government made them do it pre 9/11 1. there would
>be tons of complaints . . .
There were tons of complaints over requiring TCAS and FDR/CVR's. It was the right thing to do so the government did it, even though it cost the airlines hundreds of millions. It's their job.
>2. there would be a ton of lost jobs from the lower passenger numbers (due to
>increased fares)
Nonsense. The people making the security equipment, the people who run Amtrak, the people staffing the security checkpoints, and the police force would all add, not subtract, jobs. And do you really think that, by doing nothing and allowing 9/11 to happen, the airlines _added_ jobs? History has shown otherwise.
>plus the airlines would have to pay for all of it because the government couldnt,
> they couldnt justify the expense.
Right. Crying poverty has never been a valid excuse for poor aircraft maintenance, missing safety equipment - or inadequate security. The government's role is to set standards for performance, and then ensure that airlines and airports meet them. Again, that's their job.
>mayby rather than attacking the intelligence community we should be
>thanking them for all the sacrifices they have made for your country
If a cop tried to pull over someone for running a red light, ran the same light, and plowed into a bus killing 4 kids, would you thank him for the sacrifices he's made for the community? I wouldn't. I am thankful for the police in general, but that does not mean they are immune to criticism when they do something boneheaded and stupid.
The intelligence community does a pretty good job. In this case they failed miserably. They should fix that problem, and I support them in their efforts to do so.
-bill von

[billvon 2,406]

>And the lie would be........................?
Ashcroft claims he never heard of the memo until a few weeks ago, when in fact he heard about it over six months ago.
-bill von

[kmcguffee 0]

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Ashcroft claims he never heard of the memo until a few weeks ago, when in fact he heard about it over six months ago.

We're stretching to find one now aren't we. I guess there is no possibility that he doesn't remember one memo out of a thousand that he was briefed on over six months ago. Not to mention that half of those memos describe possible violent acts of terror against the US. We've went from Bush lying about it to Cheney and now Ashcroft. We'll find a scape goat if it is the last thing we do.
"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."

[lummy 4]

How'd I miss this?
Also, White House Aides state that warnings were sent out advising the Airports of possible Hijacking Activity. SFO authorities state that only 1 Bulletin in August and none in Sep were issued and it was not about possible hijackings. I guess it is entirely possible that someone just MISSED San Francisco International Airport...
More interesting tidbits as reported in Todays Chronicle state that the Phoenix FBI report was more detailed than just a "HUNCH" and that some of the information was brought to the attention of the CIA...

One shot... HEY!!! Mas Tequila!!!! Two Shots HEY HEY!!!! Three Shots.......

[billvon 2,406]

>I guess there is no possibility that he doesn't remember one memo out of a
>thousand that he was briefed on over six months ago.
I guess it's possible, but I sure hope that our Attorney General would not forget a memo about possible terrorists at flight training schools that he saw a few weeks after such terrorists killed 2000 people. If that's the case I shudder to think what else he will forget.
>We've went from Bush lying about it to Cheney and now Ashcroft. We'll find
>a scape goat if it is the last thing we do.
I don't think we need a scapegoat. You asked where the lie was in Lummy's post - I answered your question. Politicians lie all the time - no need to be defensive.
-bill von

[lummy 4]

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We're stretching to find one now aren't we

Uh... To be honest, NO. IF You read my original post, you would have noticed the inconsistencies.
And just to further the point, Quoting a 5/16 Washington Post Article , it specifically states that Bush was informed thru his daily intelligence report (early August) that a Hijacking by Bin Laden was a serious possibility and therefore known about prior to 9/11.
If I really wanted to stretch it, a point could be made that an FBI memo that was brought to the attention of the CIA in July could very well have spurned the Security warnings made to Bush in his Daily Briefings in early August... But It would be a stretch.........
One shot... HEY!!! Mas Tequila!!!! Two Shots HEY HEY!!!! Three Shots.......

[wlie 0]

Do you really think that the intelligence folks know everything? Who do they have working for them? Ms. Cleo? Shit! Even her crystal ball didn't tell her she was going to get sued big time. And all the while she's probably playing solitaire.
How can they know what's going to happen next? They still haven't found Bin Ladin. They could find Saddam. And they missing bombing Noriega by how many miles? Oh... And what about McVeigh? Didn't see that one coming did they?
If these folks are that smart, they'd retire by now because everyone of them would have known every week's winning lotto.

[lummy 4]

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If these folks are that smart, they'd retire by now because everyone of them would have known every week's winning lotto.

You're absolutely right... Since they can't make educated guesses and expert opinions on what a viable threat is, we should just send them all to bed without their supper.....
One shot... HEY!!! Mas Tequila!!!! Two Shots HEY HEY!!!! Three Shots.......