rapper4mpi 0 #1 May 24, 2002 Press Release 05/24/02 "Six weeks ago, Co-Defendants Joseph Herbst (Fun Jumper), Skydive Las Vegas Inc., and Michael Hawkes won a Unanimous Defense Jury Verdict in a Wrongful Death Lawsuit brought by the Parents and Family of Fun Jumper / Cameraman Vic Pappadato. The Pappadato's expressed a desire to appeal the verdict. The Co-Defendants spend approximately $700K over the last three years in their defense. Today, Las Vegas District Court Trial Judge Michael Cherry jointly awarded a total of almost $440K worth of Legal Costs and Attorney Fees to be reimbursed to the Co-Defendants from the Plaintiffs. The Pappadato's wrote in their pleading that such a judgment would put them into Bankruptcy. Michael Hawkes stated that he doesn't have any sympathy since the Pappadato’s had been trying to Bankrupt SLV and the other Co- Defendants for the last 3 years, especially by asking for a $9 Million Wrongful Death, and $3 Million Emotion Distress Claims. The Plaintiffs' were given 3 different opportunities to drop the case without the Defendants pursuing their counterclaims, costs, and fees according to Hawkes. Hawkes noted that he has worked thousands of hours over the last 3 years trying to set this precedence so that all future Plaintiffs and Attorneys will know that Skydivers are not easy targets, and won't bow-down to threats and intimidation. "Don't mess with us!-Rap Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtval 0 #2 May 24, 2002 Ill bwe moving out there in a few months. Im gonna shake there hands and buy them a jump!Life's a bitch, and I'm her Pimp!JThttp://community.webshots.com/user/jtval100 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slowfaller 0 #3 May 24, 2002 I don't think you'll be able to jump w/ them though...Its only in drugs or death we'll see anything new, and death is just too controlling - Chuck Palahniuk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #4 May 24, 2002 QuoteIm gonna shake there hands and buy them a jump!Unfortunately, if you didn't do your student jumps there, you can't jump there. While I appreciate what he's just done in the legal arena, I don't like the fact that I can't jump at his dz...pull & flare,lisa"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda sez Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,478 #5 May 24, 2002 >Michael Hawkes won a Unanimous Defense Jury Verdict in a Wrongful Death> Lawsuit brought by the Parents and Family of Fun Jumper / Cameraman Vic> Pappadato. I'm sad to see this. Rather than send the message "Don't mess with us!" I think we're sending the message "We'll see you in court." We are supporting the very system we claim to hate. Rather than waivers protecting us, I see a future where you send in $40 for your USPA renewal and another $60 for the mandatory USPA legal assistance program, to support some personal injury lawyers. Of course, this time they'll be on our side.I guess this shouldn't suprise me - a few years back we had the first skydiver sue another skydiver for the death of her husband. I guess we are looking at a future with a lot more lawyers in it, at least half of whom we'll be paying for.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtval 0 #6 May 24, 2002 well that just sux. I will be less then 20 miles away from the dz. I heard alot of bad things about that dz. I guess they can keep their dz. Ill drive to a REAL ONE!Life's a bitch, and I'm her Pimp!JThttp://community.webshots.com/user/jtval100 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtval 0 #7 May 24, 2002 billvon-I think this is just the opposite actually. the skydivers family was trying to sue. but the dzo didnt let them take thier money!it is WAY unfortunate that it even came to this but we as skydivers know the risk. so when families try to make money off of thier loss it kinda takes the dignity(not of death, but of the lives the lost ones have led) away.there was NO winner here. the counter suit cost three yrs and alot of $$. the original suit cost a life of our brothren! Life's a bitch, and I'm her Pimp!JThttp://community.webshots.com/user/jtval100 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hisgoofyness 0 #8 May 24, 2002 I agree with Bill here.I can't stand the typical "I'll see you in court" attitude.Perfect example is car insurance. Why the heck do you think car insurance costs so much, because everyone that gets hit by someone else travelling over 5 mph suddenly has whiplash as is sueing away. I mean hello, people are such assholes sometimes. I hope I never become part of the system.I really don't want to see skydiving in the courts. That only opens up the judicial system to have more control of something most of them know nothing about.Just my .02hisgoofyness "650 acres of grass and 5 acres of pavement, why did you land on the taxiway..." RG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hottamaly 1 #9 May 24, 2002 Quote Ill drive to a REAL ONE!Come and jump with us at Perris and Elsinore. Bring "vegas john" with ya when you do, he's fun to be around.SKYDIVING GAVE ME A REASON TO LIVE.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #10 May 24, 2002 There is another DZ in Jean, Nevada, about the same distance as Mikey's place, but south towards California instead of east toward Arizona. Gravity Zonequadehttp://futurecam.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hobbes4star 0 #11 May 24, 2002 hand that man a beer. congrats.. why jump when you can fly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #12 May 24, 2002 Now Bill, you know that neither of these cases was as simple as they seem on the surface.I'm not for lawsuits either, but if there are really extenuating circumstances that appear as if negligence played a part, then I can see why some parties might want to pursue cases.Yeah, stuff happens and nobody should sue for that, but where would you draw the line between normal stuff and negligent stuff?quadehttp://futurecam.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtval 0 #13 May 24, 2002 hotamaly--I will be spending a lot of time on the road driving to those dz's all i gotsta do is get back to the states, find a place to live, and buy a transportation device!Life's a bitch, and I'm her Pimp!JThttp://community.webshots.com/user/jtval100 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rapper4mpi 0 #14 May 24, 2002 Bill I agree, I hate that it came to this but,..."The Plaintiffs' were given 3 different opportunities to drop the case without the Defendants pursuing their counterclaims, costs, and fees according to Hawkes."So basically you have to spend a ton of money to defend yourself if someone decides to take you to court. Then they lose, and walk away? Meanwhile you have spent $700.00 to prove that you are innocent? I think I lot less cases would even go to court if the plantiffs have to pay the defenses court costs if the plantiffs lose. Just a thought. Regardless, it does set precidence.A dropzone I know of has been in a 12 year battle with the town who wants to throw them off a federally funded airport. Does the FAA step in? NO, does the USPA do anything? NO. The only way to survive after being brought to court is to counter sue to get that money back. Anyway, just my thoughts!It's Friday and I'm gonna jump this weekend!-Rap Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #15 May 24, 2002 How about this one......A woman sued Bob Villa for $250,000 to compensate her for the mental anguish she suffered due to him kicking the back of her seat on an airplane and waking her up. It went to a jury that deliberated the matter for 3 hours.Why is this kind of crap permitted? Sometimes I think I'm the only sane person left in the world.cielos azules y cerveza fría-Kevin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtval 0 #16 May 24, 2002 So apparently we all agree then. I am not in agreement with those that sewed. I am in agreement with the Desicion of the judge!Life's a bitch, and I'm her Pimp!JThttp://community.webshots.com/user/jtval100 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChromeBoy 0 #17 May 24, 2002 QuoteI am not in agreement with those that sewedYour a skydiver and you don't like people who sew? How do you think jumpsuits and canopies are made? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jtval 0 #18 May 24, 2002 oops. I've been awake for 33 hours. Can I take a muligan?Life's a bitch, and I'm her Pimp!JThttp://community.webshots.com/user/jtval100 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChromeBoy 0 #19 May 24, 2002 Quoteoops. I've been awake for 33 hours. Can I take a muligan?Sure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,478 #20 May 24, 2002 >Yeah, stuff happens and nobody should sue for that, but where would you >draw the line between normal stuff and negligent stuff?I don't draw the line. I organize at Quincy. If you jump with me, I may screw up. I may negligently put you in a slot you don't have the skill to fly. I may hose the exit. I may, through my own negligence, fail to adequately check the spot and cause a canopy/freefaller collision. I may negligently ask someone unqualified on the dive, and through his lack of skill, he may kill someone else. It goes without saying that I try to _not_ do those things, but I cannot guarantee that I won't.If any of those things seem like things you would like to sue me for, I wouldn't want you on my dive. The only place I draw the line is malice - if I sabotage your gear, or cut your lift webs in freefall with my knife, then you can go after me in criminal court for attempted murder (or assault, or whatever else applies.)Skydiving is a sport in which people die both due to their own negligence and other people's negligence. There have been hundreds of cases - freefall collisions, canopy collisions, funnels where someone got hurt or killed - where one person could be shown to be negligent and caused another's injury or death. Heck, you do camera. You could be overhead when someone on the 4-way you are filming gets hit so hard he almost blacks out, and dumps his main in a panic response - and he may seriously injure you, so badly that you may never jump (or walk) again. That's a risk that I think you have to accept _before_ you get on the plane, and is in fact a risk you agreed to accept when you signed the waiver.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ScottishJohn 25 #21 May 24, 2002 I think this is a sad case that could have saved the family more hartache , stress and money if they had just accepted that their loved one had died doing something he knew was dangerous but enjoyed too much to give up rather than reach for the lawyer.in a case like this I don't really thing there are any real winners.The DZ still lost a lot of money defending it's self (in my opinion it should have got all legal bills repayed) , the bad publicity to the DZ and the sport in general.The family never got their loved one back , had to pay legal fees that will probably bankrupt them , the stree of chasing this case through the court for 3 years.Who wins ?The lawyers.This is just my opinion , your entitled to disagree but keep the flame to a minimum please.John =================================I can smell your noodles !================================= Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jfields 0 #22 May 24, 2002 QuoteI can smell your noodles !So tell me, John, just what do my noodles smell like? Justin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 3 #23 May 24, 2002 QuoteThat's a risk that I think you have to accept _before_ you get on the plane, and is in fact a risk you agreed to accept when you signed the waiver.Agreed.However . . . I can understand why (and this is just a hypothetical) a family might want to sue the DZ if they thought that alcohol was involved or if the manufacturer had been previously told that their manufacturing methods and employees doing the work were not up to industry standards.I can't say I'd agree with the family's decision, but I can certainly understand it from a point of view that is for the most part accepted everywhere in the U.S. except the skydiving community.quadehttp://futurecam.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites drenaline 0 #24 May 24, 2002 I agree with you billvon.Every skydivers knows what can happen in the air, there is no one to blame if something goes wrong, shit happens. The only reason you can use a law suit or put in jail or kill, is against malice, sabotage, etc. or if you are getting skydiving instruction for first jump from a person that has no rating and knows shit about skydiving instruction and even more if he/she is giving AFF or Tandem instruction and the instructor is a person that can't control himself in freefall and can't make stand up landings, now that person must go to jail and recieve all the law suits posible because he/she is really playing with your life. Remember a first time jumper is 90+% ignorant about the sport so you can't blame him for not knowing."Life is full of danger, so why be afraid?"drenaline Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ECVZZ 0 #25 May 25, 2002 Bill, while I agree completely with you, it's important to understand that waivers and releases are seldom (VERY seldom) ironclad and above the scrutiny of the courts.These documents at best limit liability, and at worst, aren't worth the paper they're written on. Legal issues in general are open to interpretation, which is why we have attorneys.Through the years, law has turned from an issue of common sense to one of who can sway the judiciary to their point of view by bringing to light (and arguing) ambiguities in written law. Due to this very thing law has become such an intricate and complex subject that the common man would be a fool to argue his own case in all but the most minor legal skirmishes.Just as an attorney could never interpret the schematics for a complicated switching power supply, you and I could never hope to decipher the legalese required to survive in our (In)justice system. It is ludicrous to be sure, but for lack of a better system, we are stuck with it.G. Jones"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
jtval 0 #18 May 24, 2002 oops. I've been awake for 33 hours. Can I take a muligan?Life's a bitch, and I'm her Pimp!JThttp://community.webshots.com/user/jtval100 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChromeBoy 0 #19 May 24, 2002 Quoteoops. I've been awake for 33 hours. Can I take a muligan?Sure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,478 #20 May 24, 2002 >Yeah, stuff happens and nobody should sue for that, but where would you >draw the line between normal stuff and negligent stuff?I don't draw the line. I organize at Quincy. If you jump with me, I may screw up. I may negligently put you in a slot you don't have the skill to fly. I may hose the exit. I may, through my own negligence, fail to adequately check the spot and cause a canopy/freefaller collision. I may negligently ask someone unqualified on the dive, and through his lack of skill, he may kill someone else. It goes without saying that I try to _not_ do those things, but I cannot guarantee that I won't.If any of those things seem like things you would like to sue me for, I wouldn't want you on my dive. The only place I draw the line is malice - if I sabotage your gear, or cut your lift webs in freefall with my knife, then you can go after me in criminal court for attempted murder (or assault, or whatever else applies.)Skydiving is a sport in which people die both due to their own negligence and other people's negligence. There have been hundreds of cases - freefall collisions, canopy collisions, funnels where someone got hurt or killed - where one person could be shown to be negligent and caused another's injury or death. Heck, you do camera. You could be overhead when someone on the 4-way you are filming gets hit so hard he almost blacks out, and dumps his main in a panic response - and he may seriously injure you, so badly that you may never jump (or walk) again. That's a risk that I think you have to accept _before_ you get on the plane, and is in fact a risk you agreed to accept when you signed the waiver.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ScottishJohn 25 #21 May 24, 2002 I think this is a sad case that could have saved the family more hartache , stress and money if they had just accepted that their loved one had died doing something he knew was dangerous but enjoyed too much to give up rather than reach for the lawyer.in a case like this I don't really thing there are any real winners.The DZ still lost a lot of money defending it's self (in my opinion it should have got all legal bills repayed) , the bad publicity to the DZ and the sport in general.The family never got their loved one back , had to pay legal fees that will probably bankrupt them , the stree of chasing this case through the court for 3 years.Who wins ?The lawyers.This is just my opinion , your entitled to disagree but keep the flame to a minimum please.John =================================I can smell your noodles !================================= Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #22 May 24, 2002 QuoteI can smell your noodles !So tell me, John, just what do my noodles smell like? Justin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #23 May 24, 2002 QuoteThat's a risk that I think you have to accept _before_ you get on the plane, and is in fact a risk you agreed to accept when you signed the waiver.Agreed.However . . . I can understand why (and this is just a hypothetical) a family might want to sue the DZ if they thought that alcohol was involved or if the manufacturer had been previously told that their manufacturing methods and employees doing the work were not up to industry standards.I can't say I'd agree with the family's decision, but I can certainly understand it from a point of view that is for the most part accepted everywhere in the U.S. except the skydiving community.quadehttp://futurecam.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
drenaline 0 #24 May 24, 2002 I agree with you billvon.Every skydivers knows what can happen in the air, there is no one to blame if something goes wrong, shit happens. The only reason you can use a law suit or put in jail or kill, is against malice, sabotage, etc. or if you are getting skydiving instruction for first jump from a person that has no rating and knows shit about skydiving instruction and even more if he/she is giving AFF or Tandem instruction and the instructor is a person that can't control himself in freefall and can't make stand up landings, now that person must go to jail and recieve all the law suits posible because he/she is really playing with your life. Remember a first time jumper is 90+% ignorant about the sport so you can't blame him for not knowing."Life is full of danger, so why be afraid?"drenaline Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ECVZZ 0 #25 May 25, 2002 Bill, while I agree completely with you, it's important to understand that waivers and releases are seldom (VERY seldom) ironclad and above the scrutiny of the courts.These documents at best limit liability, and at worst, aren't worth the paper they're written on. Legal issues in general are open to interpretation, which is why we have attorneys.Through the years, law has turned from an issue of common sense to one of who can sway the judiciary to their point of view by bringing to light (and arguing) ambiguities in written law. Due to this very thing law has become such an intricate and complex subject that the common man would be a fool to argue his own case in all but the most minor legal skirmishes.Just as an attorney could never interpret the schematics for a complicated switching power supply, you and I could never hope to decipher the legalese required to survive in our (In)justice system. It is ludicrous to be sure, but for lack of a better system, we are stuck with it.G. Jones"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
