IronMike 0 #1 June 8, 2002 Some German guy broke his femur in 2 places today at Perris. He did a low 180 degree toggle turn and biffed in on his knees, bounced 10 feet and landed on his face. He also lost a tooth or two and might have broken an ankle. He had been warned the jump before by a big name skydiver that he was going to hurt himself if he kept doing low 180's. He apparently is a tandem master in Germany and should have had enough experience to know better. I saw it and knew from 100ft that he was not going to pull this one out of his ass. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #2 June 8, 2002 Well I guess he should count himslef lucky that he only ended up with a few fractures......could have been so much worse!"Cheeky lil' thing aren't ya?" sez Ash Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SudsyFist 0 #3 June 8, 2002 Sad to hear this... but definitely good news that it wasn't worse.Thanks for the report, Mike. BTW, how's the sunburn doin'? Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mffi422 0 #4 June 8, 2002 ooooowwwwwwwwww! I cringe in my chair hearing that. I broke, or I should say, shattered my femur in Jan and a major blood clot in Mar because of it. It saddens me to hear of anyone hurting themselves. What a long road he has ahead of him. I am just now walking better with only a slight limp remaining. People.........be careful out there!Work hard...Play harder!Dino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IronMike 0 #5 June 8, 2002 18 layers of skin off my nose later, I'm fine. I went and bought some sunscreen yesterday as well as a big float for the pool at Perris complete with beer holders. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gravitysurf808 0 #6 June 9, 2002 So sorry to hear that.Glad to hear it wasn't worse than it was. I really hope they recover quickly and can get back in the air!![old Hill Street Blues quote]"Hey...let's all be careful out there!!"[/old Hill Stree Blues quote]>> ~smile~"This is the 4th time I've been late for work this week!!...and it's only Tuesday!" ...Cheech and Chong Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhi 24 #7 June 9, 2002 ***[old Hill Street Blues quote]"Hey...let's all be careful out there!!"[/old Hill Stree Blues quote]In the movie Navy Seals with Charlie "I never met Heidi Fleiss" Sheehan, the quote is, "For God sakes, let's all be safe out there!" and the response was, "If I want to be safe, I would have joined the Coast Guard!"flyhi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cloudseeker2001 0 #8 June 9, 2002 you know, i cannot bring myself to feel sorry for people like this.................."remember when we were in africa" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gravitysurf808 0 #9 June 9, 2002 In response to flyhi....Ouch!! "This is the 4th time I've been late for work this week!!...and it's only Tuesday!" ...Cheech and Chong Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,476 #10 June 9, 2002 >Some German guy broke his femur in 2 places today at Perris. He did a low >180 degree toggle turn and biffed in on his knees, bounced 10 feet and landed >on his face.Ouch. Hopefully he'll heal well. It's becoming almost a weekly occurrence at Perris, this turn-too-low-and-hurt-yourself routine.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dove 0 #11 June 9, 2002 Completely mind-boggling. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,476 #12 June 10, 2002 >you know, i cannot bring myself to feel sorry for people like this..................Well, I definitely have sympathy for them . . . I've been through it enough myself, and have had enough friends go through it, to feel badly for people who end up in a hospital for a week or so and then have to hobble around for six months. And I feel really bad for the people who will never walk again, or for the friends and family of someone who dies doing something like that.I don't, however, think it's unfair or unexpected. I have a friend who jumps a Stiletto at about 1.8 to 1, and he broke his tibia a few months back. He hook turns on every single jump, and on this one he hit a bit of turbulence and his canopy did not recover this time. I felt bad for him, stayed with him while the ambulance pulled up, visited him at the hospital etc. We even raised a few thousand dollars for him at a fundraiser to help pay his bills.One day I was at the hospital and he said something to the effect of "this should never have happened - I have thousands and thousands of jumps, I hook on every jump, it's just unfair . . . ." I wanted to tell him that it's sort of the inevitable outcome of hook turns (especially toggle hooks) and that his luck just plain ran out. I didn't since he was still in pain and pretty loopy on drugs.I hope other people consider this before they get hurt. If you hook turn long enough, you _will_ get hurt, even if you have thousands of jumps and are really, really good. That's a risk you take, and if you're OK with that, then by all means, go for it. But if there are people you can't leave behind, or you can't afford to not be able to walk for six months (or ever) then decide _before_ the accident that you can't afford it, not after.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #13 June 10, 2002 QuoteOuch. Hopefully he'll heal well. It's becoming almost a weekly occurrence at Perris, this turn-too-low-and-hurt-yourself routine.I know what you mean.Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #14 June 10, 2002 Quoteyou know, i cannot bring myself to feel sorry for people like this..................I do. I was at Eloy a few weeks ago when one of these guys when in. Aparently he had abour 70 jumps, and did a low 180 degree toggle turn. He was medivac'd out here.There's even a story going around (and I have NO idea if this is true or not....) that he told one of his friends that he intended to hook it in on that jump. This however is completely irrelevant, because whether he stated his intentions or not, he still made a very poor choice.Everytime somebody makes a poor choice, I can't help but think it's rooted in lack of education. This guy should've known that you simply can't do 180 hard toggle turns at a hundred feet! Why didn't he know this? He should've had a canopy control course available to him that would teach him how to safely speed up his landings - maybe by using double fronts, if he wanted to.I can picture a scene where a younger jumper walks up to an experienced jumper and asks "hey, how do I do hook landings?" - the experienced jumper probably laughs, and his answer is something like "you don't. come back in 8,000jumps and then you can try it." This actually isn't a fictional answer - I had this given to me, a while ago. I walked away frustrated, even toying with the idea of just trying it without instruction. Thankfully, I made a GOOD choice.The correct answer should've been "you want to be very carefull with those. Maybe on days like this where there's a bit of wind you want to experiment with pulling both front risers to speed your landing, then work on more advanced approaches later."Whenever I hear of a younger jumper femer'ing himself or worse doing a low turn, I can't help but think that high performance landings are so new to this sport, the instruction just hasn't kept up. We need to pick up the instruction so it'll catch up with what people are actually doing.I guess the German guy today had lots of experience, so I'm probably posting this rant in the wrong thread._AmICQ: 5578907MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com AIM: andrewdmetcalfeYahoo IM: ametcalf_1999 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DickGozinya 0 #15 June 10, 2002 >>This guy should've known that you simply can't do 180 hard toggle turns at a hundred feet! Why didn't he know this? He should've had a canopy control course available to him that would teach him how to safely speed up his landings - maybe by using double fronts, if he wanted to.<<What is truly sad in this case is there was one available. The best canopy school in the world was giving instruction that day. All of the schools instructors were there and they had only 1 student that day. What is interesting is, their one student, now a good friend of mine from Chile, showed up at Perris 2 weeks ago as a low # (200 or so) jumper with a small canopy. I saw him hook in hard about a week ago. I honestly thought he would not get up. He ended up with only a HUGE scab on his shin. One of the load organizers had a serious talk with him. He immediately stopped hooking it and signed up for the Evolution canopy school. I would wager his trip to Perris and the Evolution Canopy School probably saved him a femur, if not his life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
my20thloginname 0 #16 June 10, 2002 Bill said"If you hook turn long enough, you _will_ get hurt,even if you have thousands of jumps and are really, really good. That's a risk you take, and if you're OKwith that, then by all means, go for it. "geez you sound like a whuffo admonishing a jumper for jumping.'tsk, tsk, tsk - You are gonna get hurt or killed sooner or later." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,476 #17 June 10, 2002 >geez you sound like a whuffo admonishing a jumper for jumping.>'tsk, tsk, tsk - You are gonna get hurt or killed sooner or later."We all die. At best we can decide how and when. You can skydive a long time, and have a very good chance of not getting killed or even seriously injured. Everything you do - freeflying, big ways, swooping - carries some risk. In my experience, high performance landings _will_ eventually hurt you. If you are not willing to accept the consequences, don't make high performance landings a habit. If you are unwilling to take any risk at all, skydiving is not for you.Whuffos think we're all going to die a horrible death from some skydiving mishap. New, inexperienced skydivers think they are immortal. It takes some maturity and experience before you learn that the real answer lies in between, and is largely determined by choices each jumper makes.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #18 June 10, 2002 Cowards hide behind aliases.quadehttp://futurecam.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #19 June 10, 2002 QuoteCowards hide behind aliases.Good point. pull & flare,lisa"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda sez Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #20 June 10, 2002 QuoteBill said"If you hook turn long enough, you _will_ get hurt,even if you have thousands of jumps and are really, really good. That's a risk you take, and if you're OKwith that, then by all means, go for it. "geez you sound like a whuffo admonishing a jumper for jumping.'tsk, tsk, tsk - You are gonna get hurt or killed sooner or later."...and you sound like a hundred jump wonder who thinks he's invincible....Peace~LscribblescribbleYa' know Smack-water Jack he bought a shotgun'cause he was in the mood for a little con-fron-ta-tion Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dove 0 #21 June 10, 2002 Question for Bill and Quade:I'm just curious... when you refer to hook turns are you using the term synonymously with swooping or is there a clear difference to you? I am not asking to challenge you or anything... I ask because I am interested in swooping SAFELY. Thanks guys.dove Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VivaHeadDown 0 #22 June 10, 2002 Not just femur guys...we're talking back and pelvis as well. It was worse! Guys like this don't get it. When you downsize too fast, there is absolutely NO room for error. Learn to do it right, or settle any each time you decide to jump. Odds are proving that you're not going to be walking away from things you didn't even realize you were doing wrong!Sorry, I'm just tired of watching so many people land so poorly. It used to be relaxing, and entertaining. Now I cringe and hope they only hurt themselves enough to ground them before they kill themselves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IronMike 0 #23 June 10, 2002 Damn...I knew it looked that bad.....How bad are his back and pelvis? By the way Kris, it's you know who's 21's birthday party Thursday night. Be there or be square. I bought her a 6ft tall black dildo for a present (I know you want one too) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chronistin 0 #24 June 10, 2002 you don't have the name of this guy? I happen to know quite a few german tandem people who jump in the states now & then...thxChronistin*************************************http://www.skydance.at/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #25 June 10, 2002 QuoteI ask because I am interested in swooping SAFELY. If that's your goal, get yourself to one of the canopy control schools that are available now and learn to do it safely from the beginning. There's at least one school in Florida. pull & flare,lisa"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda sez Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
