Do we need night jumps for d?

[Skycoog 0]

I know I'm probably in the minority, but I've always thought that the rule should be changed so that you're required to have a D-license before making night jumps.

In the old days the requirement was fine, but with different parachute designs, more turbine high capacity DZ's etc; night jumps can be some of the most challenging jumps any skydiver can make. If it comes down to a licensing system, then having at least a couple of hundred jumps before taking on a jump where you can't see much of anything under canopy isn't a bad idea. The same rule for night jump briefings apply.

A D-license with today's requirements hardly qualifies a skydiver in today's environment as either a "Master" skydiver or an "expert". I've been around for awhile and I can't claim either of these, I haven't touched CRW or FF, and I'm no swoop expert by any means.

Just thought I'd throw that out there as a different point of view. No need to cut me off at the knees. I really don't have a problem with the way that it is now.

Don

[ltdiver 3]

Don,

We might be in the minority here in the U.S.A., but as an AFFI I actually believe we're too easy in our license requirements. I'd like to see the standards for a 'Master' (or 'D') license raised higher. Not lower.

If you're a 'Master' at anything, the standards should be high.

Like the number requirements for a 'D' license with the FAI.

See:
http://www.shu.ac.uk/students/union/sd/progi.html

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[Sebazz1 2]

I agree with you ltdiver. And therefore I also agree that night jumps should be mandatory for a D license. The highest license should indicate that an individual has jumped in almost any condition.

Of course if you prefer we can just throw you out of the plane blindfolded.....j/k

[faulknerwn 37]

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I agree with you ltdiver. And therefore I also agree that night jumps should be mandatory for a D license. The highest license should indicate that an individual has jumped in almost any condition.

Of course if you prefer we can just throw you out of the plane blindfolded.....j/k

I agree. It would be better if the requirements were harder, not lessened. I would be willing to bet that anyone would be quite hard-pressed to find a skydiver with a thousand jumps who's never been on a "sun has set" load. It happens.

My depth perception sucks at night. I used to hate late sunset/night jumps. While I still get nervous on night jumps, I've learned methods to deal with my lack of depth perception (landing beside objects where I know the altitude of/where my flare point should be correspondingly etc).

And most people have more appropriate canopies (lighly loaded, not radical) canopies at 100 jumps than they will at 500.

Night jumps ae a great learning experience. They certainly taught me a lot and made me feel much more comfortable about those "sunset" loads...

[kallend 1,673]

Since someone with an "A" license can get on a "sun has set"
load, your logic suggests that night jumps should be a condition for an "A" license.

[bodypilot90 0]

I love night jumps, I have 8. However they can be a pain to get a load going at some places. I waited almost 2 years for my night jumps so I could get my d. The issue at our dz is you need a d to land at the beach. i fail to see what night jumps have to do with landing on the beach. Perhaps we need a E like you where saying. I think we do almost, how many jumps do u need for a pro rating, min for aff, tandem ratings. To jump a birdman suit, some HP canopies

I don't think raising the D licence but adding a E licence.

What you think of adding one more licence? :)

[TomAiello 25]

Don't they have 500 and 1000 jump licenses (I think they're called E and F) in Australia?

My instructor signed my log book when I was doing static line, and I remember him signing an 'F' license number, and getting really confused about what that was. Turned out, that funny accent wasn't a speech impediment after all.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[faulknerwn 37]

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Since someone with an "A" license can get on a "sun has set"
load, your logic suggests that night jumps should be a condition for an "A" license.

Someone with an A license could also jump an Icarus 66 if they're stupid. They can strap on a skysurf board, pull at a thousand feet and lots of other stuff. That doesn't mean they should. I think the current recommendation of 50 jumps for night jumps is a good start - most people with <50 jumps aren't jumping hard-core, have just bought gear, and are still learning their equipment.

Recommending 50 jumps for them, but not requiring them for 150 gives a good leeway of time to accomplish them, since we know that it can be hard to get them organized at a lot of dzs.

[faulknerwn 37]

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I love night jumps, I have 8. However they can be a pain to get a load going at some places. I waited almost 2 years for my night jumps so I could get my d. The issue at our dz is you need a d to land at the beach. i fail to see what night jumps have to do with landing on the beach. Perhaps we need a E like you where saying. I think we do almost, how many jumps do u need for a pro rating, min for aff, tandem ratings. To jump a birdman suit, some HP canopies

I don't think raising the D licence but adding a E licence.

If we were going to significantly raise the license requirements an E would probably be better. But I definitely don't recommend lowering what we currently have.

At your dz, I'd petition management to allow anyone with 200 jumps to land at the beach instead of a D license if all that you were missing was the night jumps. I agree that night jumps have
nothing to do with landing on the beach, so you should complain to the dzo that he should change the requirement.

It seems to me that lowering the requirements for a license because people misuse it as a requirement is attacking the wrong end of the problem. I mean what does being able to do a style series or a 4-pt 4-way have to do with landing at the beach either? They should care about the accuracy requirements - the rest isn't really applicable.

W

• Quote

[Jimbo 0]

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I don't think raising the D license but adding a E license.

I've seen this idea kicked around before, the general consensus seems to be that in theory it's an OK idea, but to bring this from idea to reality would be nearly impossible due to the political issues surrounding the issuance of a new license. Think about everyone who's already qualified for the new license, who gets to be "E1?" Maybe issuing random license numbers could solve this.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[ltdiver 3]

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Of course if you prefer we can just throw you out of the plane blindfolded

1/2 way there already, bro!

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[howardwhite 5]

"My first night jump (for which I've already paid a beer 'fine') was a 3-way RW during where we turned 8 points. "

Err... wasn't that "illegal?" Your first night jump is supposed to be a solo.

There seems to be a high demand for night jumps in dark and dreary Massachusetts. More than 20 people were signed up for (in some cases multiple) night jumps tonight in Pepperell, MA. They can be wonderful or scary or both, but my vote would be to continue them. I wouldn't want to have foregone the New Year's jump where in 8-way freefall you could see the full moon glinting off Boston Harbor, 30 miles away. The harbor islands were in full profile. Wish I had video.

Of course there can be (and is) endless debate about what ought to be required and -- this one has never taken hold in the US -- whether we should have more licenses, say E and F.

HW

[dove 0]

Mmmmmmmmmm.... night jumps. I'm gettin' all excited just thinking about it!

dove

[skyjames 2]

I have always been puzzled by the lack of effort some (not you Bill) people are willing to spend to achieve any particular licence. While most of us realize having a licence (any licence) actually only shows you have fulfilled certian requirments, it also can be a barometer of your abilities.

D licence loads ... jeesh, some of those are fun just to watch! Or scary!
Tell me Bill, how many times have we sat in front of
manifest to watch a D licence only load land?
I think we aptly named it D= DUMMY



People don't want to have a restricted licence, reminds them too much of their 1st drivers licence me thinks :)

The E licence idea has been around, kicked around, pushed around ... the corner, out of view.

I wonder what Dan Rossi would have to say about his depth perception on a night jump?

Do you recall the time I spent trying to get a live water jump? About 1 year IIRC.

I had to travel to get to do it and would do it again!
That is off topic but relates effort spent and no licence requires it. Neither does jumping a round but I travled to do one of those also. I agree with those who don't want to cheapen an already to easily attained coveted "D"

door!

james

"exit fast, fly smooth, dock soft and smile"
'nother james

[Deuce 1]

I've got a PADI scuba rating. We had to do an ocean beach entry and exit in full wetsuits in Monterey in December. I bet the scuba people feel the same way about that. I haven't worn a wetsuit hood since.

Your C license gets you everywhere, why sweat it?

A guy broke his back on my second night jump and is paralyzed for life. I don't currently intend to to any more night jumps except into really well-lit areas like Davis has during their boogie. Night freefall is stupendous, but night landings require your full attention and focus.

[bodypilot90 0]

ok off topic slightly. If the USPA came up with a requirement for swoopers, hookers ect, what should it be? What should a mandated requirement be for the "new E"

I'm not a FAN OF RULES FOR THE SAKE OF RULES" but i do get mad, upset over seeing friends and fellow skydivers killing themselves, getting busted up and hurting others under canopy


let me say this as well, I know you can't make rules against stupidity. And common sense isn't all that common. Some of what I post are things others have talked with me about.

[weid14 0]

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Your C license gets you everywhere, why sweat it

almost.... you can't compete in an open class at USPA nationals without a "D".....

[Deuce 1]

Then find a well-lit DZ and get it on.

See you at the meet!

[Deuce 1]

OK 90, this is not personal but regarding your idea:

Screw that. That's Europe, and its a pain in the ass kind of place. That's why all those Euro's come over here to jump.

More regulation and rules just make the sport a pain, and more expensive to boot. Nobody is going to continually be stupid if everybody on your dropzone is telling them they're stupid.

The guys that get convinced they're cool if they take risks will hurt themselves and others. Make that uncool on your DZ.

I am so glad I didn't have to get a permit to fly my camera like they do in Europe. The government would just have prevented me from flying a camera, they would not have made anyone safer.

Freedom!

Man I just read that post again. What the hell do you propose the penalty would be? Fines? Who's gonna write the tickets? Who's gonna issue warrants when they don't get paid? You gonna ground somebody, take their license, cut off their buttons?

You do it! Somebody hooks in enough that you wish a cop was there to write a ticket or put them in a car, tell them you think they are an asshole and stand your ground. If they are a menace, tell the DZO to 86 them or you will take your business elsewhere and then vote with your feet.

My home DZ is safe because of tough, smart veteran flyers who will walk out onto the landing area and rip you a new one for being stupid. My DZO will 86 people who are foolish and he doesn't allow drinking during operation. Come fly with us, but don't call for Dropzone cops for everyone because your group won't police itself.

(yikes i'm snappy)

[TEB6363 0]

Just wanted to post that I like night jumps and I would be glad to give the briefing to any body who wants to go. If you don't want to go on a night jump, then don't. Then you should not expect to get the highest license either. Your choice.

Once the plane takes off, you're gonna have to land - Might as well jump out!!

[kallend 1,673]

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Just wanted to post that I like night jumps and I would be glad to give
the briefing to any body who wants to go. If you don't want to go on a
night jump, then don't. Then you should not expect to get the highest
license either. Your choice.

According to the SIM, night jump briefings can only be given by an S&TA, an I/E, or a regional director. Which of these are you?

Can you explain why a night jump is relevant if you wish to compete in open class at the nationals? I competed in open class RW last year (came 5th), and I can't think of a single benefit that my night jumps conferred on me. All the competition jumps were in broad daylight.

This is not to say that I dislike night jumps. I rather enjoy them, but I still don't see why they should be REQUIRED for a license.

JK - D23151