Is there a witch hunt on in the US?

[Skyrad 0]

After reading this article :
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&ncid=716&e=1&u=/ap/20020829/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/attacks_terror_network_13
I was left wondering if theres a witch hunt on in the US. As far as I can tell the evidence against these men mounts up to them having taken videos at Disney, being Muslims (although one has a very christian name) and belonging to an Islamic group alledgedly that has some vauge alledged conection with Bin Laden. As there is supposedly only six degrees of seperation between everyone on the planet that wouldn't be hard to claim.
'Ujaama's community work won him praise in his hometown. He once was given a key to the city of Seattle. And in Washington state, lawmakers declared June 10, 1994, James Ujaama Day.'
A Terrorist????????????????????????????
'Both indictments used a law barring people living in the United States from providing "material support and resources" to terrorist groups.'
'The evidence that is being developed suggests that America has been a piggy bank for certain terror organizations to the tune of tens of millions of dollars," said a senior law enforcement official directly involved in the investigation.'
Does that mean the FBI will soon be arresting the thousands of Americans who gave money to the IRA and the INLA? Or closing Sin Fienns bank accounts? If not, why not? In America does one first have to be a Muslim before one is classified as a terrorist?
I love coming to the states but am concerned with what apperars to be anti Islamic Mc Carthyistic fervor.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[ernokaikkonen 0]

The links broken...

Try this

[Skyrad 0]

Thanks.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[kmcguffee 0]

You won't get most of the evidence against them until after the trial. It is protected by the Federal Grand Jury Rules and is a violation of the subject's rights to disclose. If they have been indicted I'll guarantee that there is alot of evidence against them.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[jtval 0]

In America does one first have to be a Muslim before one is classified as a terrorist?


I am not sure what group he claimed but I dont think Timothy Mcvee was Muslim. I guess john lynn walker did convert but wasnt he originally cristian?
I have read tha article yet but that was just an obseveration I wanted to point out

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[billvon 2,471]

>I was left wondering if theres a witch hunt on in the US.

Well, there is, but this is not good evidence of it. These people have been indicted and will be put on trial; at that trial they will be able to defend themselves, and their lawyers will have access to the evidence against them. If their lawyers are good, they will scream bloody murder if the usual judicial process is violated (although it's likely that, if everything proceeds normally, there will be a gag order to prevent information from escaping.)

What worries me more is the newfound (and extremely unconstitutional) ability of the US government to arrest and hold people essentially forever without charging them. Jose Padilla, a US citizen, has been arrested, is in jail and will be there indefinitely despite the fact that a) there are no charges against him and b) Ashcroft has said that they don't really have any evidence linking him to terrorism. He has been held incommunicado without access to a lawyer or a judge.

The idea that the US can arrest and hold a US citizen indefinitely with no charges, without access to lawyers, and without any way to appeal, is pretty scary. It is in direct violation of the constitution and two hundred years of precedent. Given that Ashcroft is in the process of building a secret prison in Guantanamo Bay, where "war criminals" can held forever in secret without being charged, it becomes even scarier.

[quade 3]

Skyrad --

I've noticed in a couple of threads that your views seem to be fairly anti-U.S.. That's ok, a lot of folks around the world are anti-U.S., but I'm curious as to why.

I'd like to know the real views of at least one person outside of the U.S. instead of getting it filtered through our media.

Can you explain why you feel the way you do toward the U.S.?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[freeflir29 0]

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What worries me more is the newfound (and extremely unconstitutional) ability of the US government to arrest and hold people essentially forever without charging them.

Actually Bill, we have come a long way. For MANY MANY years prior to congressional oversight of the CIA someone dabbling in events such as these would just end up having a nasty accident. Lets look at all the stories about the KGB and ESPECIALLY the East German Stasi killing lots of people for one reason or another. Do you think the US NEVER did any of that? I can assure you they have. The "State Department" has lots of power. It just seems the dogs are on a leash these days. Part of the reason the world is in this state today. I'm not saying I like a government that is judge, jury, and executioner in secret but I will say it is the reason that nice houses with white picket fences, baseball games, and 4th of July parties exist.

[jose 0]

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Skyrad --

I've noticed in a couple of threads that your views seem to be fairly anti-U.S.. That's ok, a lot of folks around the world are anti-U.S., but I'm curious as to why.

I'd like to know the real views of at least one person outside of the U.S. instead of getting it filtered through our media.

Can you explain why you feel the way you do toward the U.S.?

What he said.

Maybe I'm being judgemental, but if you dont like the way the US is going about its business, assuming that you know what you are talking about (which is doubtful, since you base it on the media) why dont you move out of the country and see how you like it elsewhere. Personally, I am getting sick and friggin tired of Americans questioning the decisions and authority of my government. And as far as the Guantanamo Bay Prison, if you managed to find yourself there in the first place, I hope you rot in FU#@ING hell.

Just my .02

[billvon 2,471]

> (which is doubtful, since you base it on the media) . . .

And you base your opinions on your personal conversations with Hussein, and your experiences flying on Flight 11 just before impact?

> why dont you move out of the country and see how you like it
>elsewhere.

I don't like some things my country has done - slavery, japanese concentration camps, and viet nam, to name a few things - and I ain't going anywhere. In fact, some of us here in the US believe that we actually have a democratic republic, and that dissent is essential to our very way of governing ourselves.

>Personally, I am getting sick and friggin tired of Americans
> questioning the decisions and authority of my government.

It's my government too, and I'm going to complain loudly and often when I see them doing something stupid. If you don't like that, you are free to find yourself a country that does not have a freedom of speech provision - say, china.

> And as far as the Guantanamo Bay Prison, if you managed to find
> yourself there in the first place, I hope you rot in FU#@ING hell.

Wow, I don't even need to say anything about that. You painted a pretty clear picture of yourself with that sentence.

[billvon 2,471]

>Actually Bill, we have come a long way. For MANY MANY years prior to
> congressional oversight of the CIA someone dabbling in events such
> as these would just end up having a nasty accident.

I agree, and I think that's still going on today. I am worried that we are no longer even trying to hide it. I think every large country out there has made people "disappear;" in the past this has meant foreign agents and clear threats. Now we're arresting US citizens and holding them very openly, while admitting that we don't have anything to charge then with. Ashcroft is not even paying lip service to the constitution, and that really worries me. What's next? The ability to shut down subversive web sites without any evidence of criminal activity? Or arrest subversives without real evidence? We went through this nonsense before, during Joe McCarthy's era. I hope we have learned our lesson.

>I'm not saying I like a government that is judge, jury, and
> executioner in secret but I will say it is the reason that nice houses
> with white picket fences, baseball games, and 4th of July parties
> exist.

And I think there's a huge difference between spy games in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia and taking a US citizen, arresting him in the US, and holding him indefinitely without trial. We have a different standard of justice for our citizens within our borders - at least we did until recently.

[Skyrad 0]

Hi Quade,
It may seem that I'm anti US but that really isn't the case I assure you. I am however concerned about the way that the US is conducting its foriegn policy. There is a feeling over here in the UK in some quarters that the US has been extreamly hypocritical when it comes to terrorism. No sane person can condone the terrable crimes that occured on 9/11 and the world understands the pain that the US feels and the feelings of vengence that stem from those attacks. However, for the last 30 years+ americans have donated approximatly £18M a year via NORAID and other organisations to the PIRA and other terrorist groups in Ireland. Having seen close up the effects of the bombs in my homeland it also engenders some anger. Our terrorists were lorded as heros in the US. The so called war on terror only seems to matter since america has been attacked, yet here in Britan we've been in a war against terror for the last 100 years.
Now America 'the land of the free' can legaly assasinate people, can legaly hold people without trial for as long as they like, keep legal consul from people that it holds in cages. I have met alot of Americans and consider some of them to be amoung my closest friends, I am not anti american.
By america taking the line of my enemys enemys are my friends it has jumped into bed with the devil on more than one occasion. The civil liberties that once made your country so great are no more, they have been erroded and are being disposed with and america waves the flag and cheers there parting, why? 'Because your either with us or against us'. At a time when America claims to be the land of the free upholding democratic values it seems to be throwing its own away and embracing the values of those it abhores. Imprisonment without trail, state sanctioned murder, delibrate targeting of civillians at work. (Remember the TV station in Serbia 18 dead journalists.) I belive that that is just as much a terrorist action as 9/11.
Americas continuing support of Israel also makes a mockery of Bushs war on terror. Even the Chief Rabi of the UK said this week its not possible to condone Israel and leading Jewish intellectuals such as Professor Jacqualine Rose now speak out against the crimes of Israel. I also condem the suicide bombings by the Palistinians. Yet American foriegn policy still supports a government that is in effect now a terrorist state to the tune of approx $90 Billion a year. It makes a mockery of Bushs War on Terror.
To many Americans think that the rest of the world is jelous of them but in the developed world this simply isn't the case. American Skydivers seem to be better maybe because they're more likely to travel out of the country and mix with foreigner more and so have a generaly better balanced view. Its a pity that so few Americans travel outside of America. Isolationism only leads to suspicion. I've been to the states three times since 9/11 (and found alot of good people there.) I've travelled through the middle east, I've had Afghan sand on my boots and I'm a former British soldier.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[evilivan 0]

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(snipped) . And as far as the Guantanamo Bay Prison, if you managed to find yourself there in the first place, I hope you rot in FU#@ING hell.
Just my .02

The above attitude is one of probably many reasons people around the world have anti-US feelings.

"If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation."
David Brent

[Skyrad 0]

Sir, you over charge us.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[kallend 1,679]

Maybe I'm being judgemental, but if you dont like the way the US is going about its business, assuming that you know what you are talking about (which is doubtful, since you base it on the media) why dont you move out of the country and see how you like it elsewhere. Personally, I am getting sick and friggin tired of Americans questioning the decisions and authority of my government. And as far as the Guantanamo Bay Prison, if you managed to find yourself there in the first place, I hope you rot in FU#@ING hell.

Just my .02

[billvon 2,471]

>Its a pity that so few Americans travel outside of America.

Yep. I recently had a discussion with someone who was positive that we had to pump billions of dollars into Africa because they were all toothless miserable poor beggars. Yet the people I met in rural Africa were one of the happiest (and healthiest) people I've met. They had all they wanted - food, a well, shelter, family and friends. They were pretty well educated, could read French and speak both French and Zarma (more than most americans) and when I mentioned I was a skydiver one of them immediately pantomined a skydive including pulling using a throwout!

Yet when I mentioned all this to the person I was talking to, he didn't believe it. Let me see if I can find his response here -

"Well, I don't believe it. I have had the opportunity to interact with Africans from all walks of life . . . and they all, every single one of them, want electricity, high-speed internet access, running water, better access to health care and education. The exact same thing that you and I want . . ."

In other words, the special he saw on FOX showed him poor people who want to be americans. I wish people like him were the exception, but unfortunately they are not,

>I've been to the states three times since 9/11 (and found alot of
> good people there.) I've travelled through the middle east, I've had
> Afghan sand on my boots and I'm a former British soldier.

What? Actual experience with people in other countries? What good is that? Here in the US we have USA Today, and they tell us all we need to know about the poor Africans, noble Israelis, bloodthirsty Arabs and untrustworthy Koreans. Don't be messing with our easy-to-digest, eight page worldview, now.

[freeflir29 0]

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untrustworthy Koreans

Thats all true..... J/K


Bill, unfortunately the US government is in a rough spot. Battling terrorism is the hardest job any govt. will face. On one hand you have to fight the terrorist. In order to do that you have to put tighter controls on the population. This often backfires and is the exact reason communist insurgencies have been so successful. The more the govt does...the more the terrorist wins. It's a lose lose situation. I hope that we can somehow stop the terrorism without burning the Constitution but I'm not really confident that will ever happen. I think either terrorism is here to stay or we are going to be looking at a VERY differen't society here in the States.

[jbrasher 0]

I have to agree with Bill. If you're going to ignore the constitution when it suits you you'll find yourself always finding those excuses. 'Just this once' and ten we'll go back and be like we used to be.

We're deluding ourselves, either the constitution applies all the time or it doesn't apply at all.

Red, White and Blue Skies,

John T. Brasher D-5166

[bodypilot90 0]

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Americas continuing support of Israel also makes a mockery of Bushs war on terror. Even the Chief Rabi of the UK said this week its not possible to condone Israel and leading Jewish intellectuals such as Professor Jacqualine Rose now speak out against the crimes of Israel. I also condem the suicide bombings by the Palistinians. Yet American foriegn policy still supports a government that is in effect now a terrorist state to the tune of approx $90 Billion a year. It makes a mockery of Bushs War on Terror.

No one want the Palistinians, why because they are nothing but trouble where ever they are. Peaceful arabs live a nice life in Israel. This terrorist state as you call it would like nothing less than to live in peace. Sure some left wing professor might be sorry for what Israel is, as I am sure some left wingers here feel the same way, Israel has nothing to be ashamed of. When the enemies attack, the not only fend them off but push them back. The only thing Israel has done is what the us would have done.

The US isn't perfect but I wouldn't want to live in any other nation in the world. lived in a few and visited many, none compare.

[FallRate 0]

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What? Actual experience with people in other countries? What good is that? Here in the US we have USA Today, and they tell us all we need to know about the poor Africans, noble Israelis, bloodthirsty Arabs and untrustworthy Koreans. Don't be messing with our easy-to-digest, eight page worldview, now.

Just have to chime in here.

Bill, would you please stop with the self-righteous "I'm an American who realizes that most Americans are simpletons, which therefore excludes me from judgment of the American masses and pretty much means that I am an f'ing genius" attitude. If you would like to explore the shortcomings of Americans, what say we start with a critical analysis of your infantile and generally incoherent rants!?

FallRate

[skybytch 259]

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your infantile and generally incoherent rants!?

Let's keep the personal stuff to PM's. 'Kay? Thanks.

[FallRate 0]

Yes, I suppose it is much worse to aim criticism at a single person rather than aiming it at an entire culture.

FallRate

[skybytch 259]

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I suppose it is much worse to aim criticism at a single person

Referring to rule #1... here anyway, it is indeed much worse.

[FallRate 0]

Yeah, that's logical.

FallRate

[kmcguffee 0]

Mr. Bill, I think you are missing some information concerning Mr. Padilla. This is a story that I found on a BBC news site:

He apparently dropped out of view after leaving the US in 1998. This, officials say, was when he first visited Afghanistan.

Norma Leon, the Padilla family's former landlady, told the Chicago Sun-Times that Mr al-Muhajir's mother was worried because her son had left the country and become a member of a cult.

"She was scared for him," Ms Leon told the newspaper.

In 2001, officials say, he made contact with Abu Zubaydah, a senior al-Qaeda commander who is in American custody and apparently co-operating with the FBI.

Al-Qaeda, the US authorities allege, asked Mr Padilla to go to Lahore in Pakistan, where he learnt how to make a dirty bomb.

In Karachi, Pakistan, he is alleged to have met several other al-Qaeda members.

Officials have not said whether these meetings took place before or after the 11 September attacks on the US.

On 8 May 2002, he was arrested after flying into Chicago's O'Hare airport from Pakistan, for what the US authorities say was a reconnaissance mission.

Now, we have a US citizen who was found in a plot to attack the US while serving in a foreign terrorist organization. You believe that he should have been allowed to continue his mission until the government had enough evidence, beyond a reasonable doubt, to take him to court. Didn't we work against terrorists like that before 9/11? In investigative terms that is called reactive investigations. It means you will solve the case after the crime. Are you willing to continue to solve these terrorist cases after the attack? I will remind you that the information the FBI is working from comes from Abu Zubaydah, the third in command of Al Qaeda.

I know that it kills you that you are not getting 100% of the information and evidence against Padilla. The government must not consider you to be in a 'need to know' position. I'll draft a letter and inform them that you are not the average "American", you have traveled, and expect to be briefed on these types of decisions in the future.

By the way, read this amendment (number 5 if you are wondering):

Quote

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Take a close look at the bolded portion. Looks like this isn't a constitutional violation huh.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin