Incident Reports in General

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Just my opinion, which I am sure has pissed some of you off....

It didn't piss me off one bit Michelle. In fact, it was a very well written piece.

Certain aspects of DZ.COM have me frustrated at the moment (and I'd be much better off if I just ignoring them). But I am very much looking forward to meeting many fellow DZ.COMers come late December.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Spy38W 0]

Wordy, perhaps, I just wish I could keep a thought process for that long and still have it make sense in the end. Thanks Michele

--
Hook high, flare on time

[hooked 0]

Michele,

I wish I could write what I feel the way you can. My thoughts are there, I just can't put them in a written piece the way you can! I admire you for that and being able to say what you mean so eloquently! You rawk, girl! I think we all are wondering what circumstances caused the loss of a beautiful girl.

J

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Sometimes we're just being Humans.....But we're always Human Beings.

[skybytch 259]

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In my Opinion, a DZ should be required to disclose any and all information regarding Fatalities at their Business (especially if it involved students). Sadly, I do not think that there is a law requiring this.

Sadly there's no law? I'm GLAD there's no law. Government regulation of skydiving is, imho, the LAST thing we need, cuz once they start they won't stop. The only things laws would accomplish is to put many dz's out of business and make jumping more expensive than it already is.

How would you like this information to be presented? In the waiver? A big sign at manifest?

I'm sure I'll get some shit for this one, but why is it that the only people who think government regulation would be good for this sport are either whuffos or new jumpers?

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Students who are putting their lives in the hands of of Trained professionals and PAYING for their services have a right to know about their safety record.

Ever ask your doctor how many of his patients have died? Trained professional that you are paying for his/her service, don't you have a right to know? Shouldn't that information be posted in the waiting room?

I used to do tandems at a dz that had a tandem fatality. When asked by first jumpers whether anyone had died there, I would explain what happened. Would I ever have volunteered that information if I wasn't asked a direct question? No way - the instructor in that incident was my skydiving mentor for the first three years I was jumping; it hurt to talk about it then and it still hurts to talk about it today... almost 10 years later.

My opinion is that if you are going to throw your body at the ground at a high rate of speed you'd have to be pretty stupid to not realize that you can possibly die, whether you're doing your first jump or your 10,000th. Sometimes the equipment or the training is at fault, most times the jumper is at fault. At the risk of repeating myself - you can do everything right skydiving and still die. If you can't accept that, skydiving isn't for you.

[PhreeZone 15]

>I'm sure I'll get some shit for this one, but why is it that the only people who think government regulation would be good for this sport are either whuffos or new jumpers?

Because they want to save us from ourselfs and make it so they can't hurt themself in the process. These are the same people that are amazed when they get a canopy at a 1.2 wingloading that they are able to snap their bones in a heatbeat even though they "are only going to do straight in approachs". Arguments of 10 years ago a Sabre was high proformance and now its a student canopy so that means the former ultra high proformance canopys are now mild... WRONG! you can wind up just as dead under a Manta as you can a VX90. These people trying to save us are amazed when someone dies and have to find something to blame... the AAD did'nt fire, the canopy design is bad, what ever.. .the saviors just can't believe that its that easy to die and in their mind the best way of dealing with it is to prevent it from happening again by making laws.

At least with canopy choice you get to pick your type of funeral, large, slow canopies will be open casket, highly loaded canopies will be a closed casket. (unless you impact at a high speed.. ie terminal)

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[SatchFan 0]

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I'm sure I'll get some shit for this one, but why is it that the only people who think government regulation would be good for this sport are either whuffos or new jumpers?

Although I have chosen to stay out of this discussion up until now I wanted to throw out that I am a new jumper but agree with you that the gov't should not be allowed to start getting involved. You're right, once they start they won't stop. That's all.

[diverdriver 5]

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Although I have chosen to stay out of this discussion up until now I wanted to throw out that I am a new jumper but agree with you that the gov't should not be allowed to start getting involved. You're right, once they start they won't stop. That's all.

And you keep the government out by "self policing". What that exactly means is always open to interpretation by us jumpers and DZOs. But I guarantee if we don't do it they will. So we have a choice. Act on our own behalf and call BS where we see it. Or, sit back, head in the sand, and accept what comes from the mess. We really are in charge of our own destiny.

Chris Schindler

[happythoughts 0]

"At the risk of repeating myself - you can do everything right skydiving and still die. If you can't accept that, skydiving isn't for you."

Figured I'd repeat it for you. I tell people this all the time. Nobody believes me either (until they've got a little time in).

The more govt involvement we have, the more the govt will f--- it up. It has been that way for everything else.

[SatchFan 0]

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Although I have chosen to stay out of this discussion up until now I wanted to throw out that I am a new jumper but agree with you that the gov't should not be allowed to start getting involved. You're right, once they start they won't stop. That's all.

And you keep the government out by "self policing". What that exactly means is always open to interpretation by us jumpers and DZOs. But I guarantee if we don't do it they will. So we have a choice. Act on our own behalf and call BS where we see it. Or, sit back, head in the sand, and accept what comes from the mess. We really are in charge of our own destiny.

Thanks for following up with the self policing part. It's very true.

[freeflyz 0]

I understand the self policing part,but who going to make sure these police don't go over the edge??? You have people that understand the problem and people that just don't care about peoples feeling,Thinking they have a RIGHT to know at all cost!!

[billvon 2,400]

>I understand the self policing part,but who going to make sure these
> police don't go over the edge???

We are. The nice thing about self-policing is the skydivers still have all the power. Don't like a DZ? Avoid it. Tell other people you don't like it and give reasons. Think USPA is out to kill people? Find a non-USPA DZ and jump there. The reason we are able to do all this is that those "police" (S+TA's, DZO's, etc) have no power beyond what we give them. That's what self-policing is all about.

[edjackson 0]

After being in this sport for some time now, I believe that the skydiving community cannot regulate itself. As a survivor of one skydiving plane crash and witnessing four fatalities, I have seen how investigations have been done. Unfortunately, there is an element of irresponsibility in this sport. I have struggled with remaining in the sport since losing a good friend, but at least I am aware of the risks. Some of the newer jumpers, however, are not truly aware of what they are getting into and put there trust in those who will abuse it. We will continue to lose people needlessly until the FAA or other agency takes over.

[FreeflyPlaymate 0]

Wow, what a thread. My first response was to try to keep this as short as possible. But then I realized how ironic is that...that's all we ever want, everything as short as possible when it comes to accidents or pain, or heaven forbid human error. GASP! shhh shhh don't say any of that those are cuss words in skydiving right? Not just in skydiving, but in all hobbies, all walks of life.
Do we have a right to know what happened? NO
We are blessed though by having reports made public, by having investigations, even if those invstigations do not include all of the facts....some is far better than nothing to learn from.
We never have a right to know, this is life, no one said we would get our way, that it would be easy, but we get to see reports...it is our decesion to act upon it. To pay tribute to those who have meant something to us, to respect them, to respect ourselves, to respect everyone who cares about every single one of use, to be safe. Don't you think that your future husband or wife, or son or daughter deserves to have you alive and there for them. Of course we say yes, but we are in a world of lazyiness, no one wants to read a report, to work, to get that old brain wheel cranking again. Who wants to do the work, it's the little red hen....making the bread, kneading the dough, no help from anyone and then when it;s done everyone wants some. Who here actually puts in the time to read articles or books that have to do with safety, or how many people attend canopy seminars? Anyone? Anyone? Who here gets the cliff notes version of what happened from an accident? Ok who actually reads the incident reports, or NTSB reports? Do you share it with other people? Do you talk about it?
Listen everyone I'm not pointing fingers, I'd have three pointing right back at me, I am guilty of all of those things just as much as I am not. the point isn't what aren't we doing...it's ok....let's do something about it, let's make it safer, roll up your sleeves and do some work, read material, talk to people, and I mean really talk to them. Ask your DZ to start having safety seminars. AWWW but that's not any fun now is it...I don't want to be the little red hen, do all the work by myself, I just wanna have fun and skydive...that would be perfect if we weren't human, but we are, so we will make mistakes. It's this simple...read, talk, listen, learn...
Take the time now while we are still here, don't you think anyone who's ever gone in skydiving wouldn't come back just to tell us that, if we'd only talk about it more?
I used to jut be kept in awe by skydivers, 4 yrs ago when I started jumping...they seemed to know this huge secret, and danced with life. But no one can truly dance with life unless we respect it. We have all of this knowledge too, this information and what is being done? nothing...and I say it to myself as well, what the hell am I doing to make a difference in skydiving, better yet what are you doing?

[billvon 2,400]

>After being in this sport for some time now, I believe that the
> skydiving community cannot regulate itself.

After some time in the sport myself, I find it does a relatively good job. Do we have a student syllabus? Do you know what an A-licensed jumper means? Can you get coaching if you want it? If you do stupid stuff and endanger others, will you hear about it? If you can answer yes to those questions, we have some degree of self regulation.

>Some of the newer jumpers, however, are not truly aware of what
> they are getting into and put there trust in those who will abuse it.

Quite true. Solution - tell them they can die. Tell them other people can kill them through their negligence. Tell them they can die even if they do everything right. Then they will see the sport clearly.

If you tell them they will not die, that people will protect them, that they should blindly trust the people who run the DZ, you are doing them a grave disservice.

>We will continue to lose people needlessly until the FAA or other
>agency takes over.

The only way the FAA will reduce fatalities is by reducing the number of jumps. Do you really, honestly think that an FAA bureaucrat in Sacramento is better able to decide on safety issues at Perris than Jack Gramley, who is a skydiver and sees firsthand what goes on there? He can't. Jack is a better person to do it, and if Jack's not there, Melanie or Harry or even Kate. Between the four of them you have around a hundred years and tens of thousands of jumps of experience. They are the people I want regulating our sport, not a bureaucrat who has never jumped and would just as soon shut down Perris and not deal with it.

[wmw999 2,122]

What he said. The only possible "agency" intervention I could see would be to have certain minimum requirements for reporting fatalities. The USPA tries with the incident reports, and that's a good start.
As soon as you give beaurocrats too data to generate, they analyze it, then they want more data, then they want an agency to control the data, then they want to limit that which generates the data, so their graphs are easier to make.
Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)