billvon 2,414
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I'm guessing CF means cluster fuck. And he is right, there were many links broken in that chain. I was just bringing her up because she got dinged by many people for saying she thought the reserve was 100% garaunteed.
You're absolutely right though, using your reserve is a far better option than landing some malfunctions. You should have and respect a safe hard deck. Its just that hearing someone say a reserve is 100% is like nails on a chalkboard to me. I always feel compelled to say something.
You're absolutely right though, using your reserve is a far better option than landing some malfunctions. You should have and respect a safe hard deck. Its just that hearing someone say a reserve is 100% is like nails on a chalkboard to me. I always feel compelled to say something.
QuoteYou're absolutely right though, using your reserve is a far better option than landing some malfunctions.
I can understand a student/newbie not feeling comfortable landing with their rears.
But for everyone else? OMG if people don't know how to fly and land using their rear risers then stop all this nonesense of specializing in freefall, go take a canopy control class, dedicate jumps to canopy control, upsize if need be and learn how to control that canopy. Your rears are not to be feared. All this nonsense of some people scaring other people telling them that they will stall their canopies has got to stop. Any wing can stall at any airspeed and at any attitude. It's aerodynamics 101. Any abrupt control input could cause a stall. So learn how to control your canopies people, learn how to recognize the imminent stall. I've stood up my landings on a big ass 303 square foot BASE canopy just as I have landed a small sub 100 square foot swooping canopy all by using just the rears. It is not all that hard. Just don't start yanking on your control inputs, be subtle and feel that canopy buffet moments before the stall (plus know that the canopy will stall at a higher airspeed ... once again it's aerodynamics 101).
Try not to worry about the things you have no control over
AFFI 0
QuoteI was just bringing her up because she got dinged by many people for saying she thought the reserve was 100% garaunteed.
Its just that hearing someone say a reserve is 100% is like nails on a chalkboard to me. I always feel compelled to say something.
There is a viewpoint concerning trust in a reserve parachute that is prevalent in the little corner of the world wide instructional arena that has been handed down to me from solo freefall instructional professionals whose expertise I could only dream of one day acquiring.
During training, something we never want to put into the mind of a solo freefall student is that, although the chance is diminutive, the reserve can malfunction.
It is concerns like this that puts into the mind of jumpers a lack of confidence that they can trust in and rely on their reserve parachute when they are confronted with a situation where it must be used. Naturally, as a jumper gains experience they will learn more about how to handle various situations where certain techniques can be utilized in lieu of resorting to the reserve. As we traverse toward the lower end of the experience spectrum there will be more situations where using the reserve is the best option to walk away from a landing as has been discussed and explored in this thread.
Keeping this line of thought in mind, there is a facet of good leadership in teaching others to trust their reserve 100%. And there is a difference between saying a reserve will work perfectly 100% of the time and saying that one can have trust in their reserve that it will work 100% of the time. I certainly appreciate your frustration with accuracy when making statements, but there are times to use discretion and good judgment in how we communicate potential issues that may arise that may put fear into the mind of a jumper early on in their skydiving career.
When training students, I do not lie to them and tell them the reserve is 100%, I just do not bring it up. In my limited experience of 5 seasons training solo freefall students, I have only had 1 student ask me if a reserve can malfunction, and of course I was honest. That person did not continue to jump after that. And naturally, we must do all we can to effectively train students not only how, but when to resort to their reserve and methods to land less than perfect mains keeping in mind that altitude awareness is essential and when a decision must be made, it they are not confident they can safely land their main, to execute emergency procedures at an appropriate altitude.
Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…
QuoteBut for everyone else? OMG if people don't know how to fly and land using their rear risers then stop all this nonesense of specializing in freefall, go take a canopy control class, dedicate jumps to canopy control, upsize if need be and learn how to control that canopy.
Which canopy class would that be? I've been to the Elsinore version of Scott Miller's Flight 1, and a 2 day with Brian two years earlier. Neither has landing in rears, just using the inputs and stalling up high.
There were a couple items in this thread that started to cover how to safely do it for the first time. Would be nice to cover it further - it would be silly to have a bad landing trying to learn how to avoid the rare circumstance of a reserve failure.
QuoteNeither has landing in rears, just using the inputs and stalling up high.
WTF do you think you were doing those drills? To recognize how the canopy would feel prior to the stall or for just shits and giggles? Why does a pilot practice power on and power off stalls? For shits and giggles or maybe they practice it so that they know how the wing feels just prior to the stall? Why do airline pilots get put through the simulators practicing all sorts of emergenices? Cause they want to purposely increase their stress levels? Or maybe they do so that when the shit does hit the fan they act instinctively and correctly?
What is one of the canopy control tasks BillVon has recommended we all do in his list of things to do before we decide to downsize? Geez I seem to remember landing with the rears as being one of these steps to accomplish. So that's great that you took a Scott Miller class ... but did you feel that now that you've done his class you do not need to continue to explore the performance range of your canopy? You're done ... you know all you need to know and there is no need to actually practice? If it takes hundreds and hundreds of practice jumps up high before you actually do it low to the ground, well then that's what it takes. Practice it slowly bringing it lower and lower to the ground and sooner or later when you are ready you will land with your rears and then you will understand where I am coming from.
Your rear risers are not to be feared. Learn them and use them. You will be a better canopy pilot because of this.
Try not to worry about the things you have no control over
hukturn 0
Really? I never let the same person pack my main and reserve. Even when I have used packers. I find that amazing that anyone would.
When I throw my main, I am looking for a reason to chop. I have just had too many too low. If I can see the problem and I can fix it or deal with it to a safe landing, I will. But if I have any doubt, it's gone.
Canopies? Reserve is larger than my main. Rig1 - Sabre 135 and a PD143R, Rig 2 - Sabre 120 and a PD 126. Neither are the smallest I have jumped, neither are as difficult to steer than my round experiences and I have more F111 jumps than I can shake a stick at. So, I am not afraid of either canopy in either of my rigs.
When I throw my main, I am looking for a reason to chop. I have just had too many too low. If I can see the problem and I can fix it or deal with it to a safe landing, I will. But if I have any doubt, it's gone.
Canopies? Reserve is larger than my main. Rig1 - Sabre 135 and a PD143R, Rig 2 - Sabre 120 and a PD 126. Neither are the smallest I have jumped, neither are as difficult to steer than my round experiences and I have more F111 jumps than I can shake a stick at. So, I am not afraid of either canopy in either of my rigs.
Did the chest thumping make you happy? And the strawman insults?
It wasn't very productive otherwise. This thread can be about solutions, or pointless complaints about people who don't like or have good access to HnPs, are flying in crowded skies.
I asked for practical approaches to get to point B. 'Just practice lower and lower till you get there' is not really it. For all the practice flares I've done at altitude, I just don't have a feel for when I've planed out. I know it's flatter and slower, but no reference points.
For me personally, right now, I have very uneven strength in the shoulders due to the break, esp with external rotation. It doesn't really favor bad experimentation. I recently saw someone do a rear riser plane out at 15-20 ft, then slowly release and use his toggles to land. If I can give myself a good plan to do that, that's where I'd like to go.
It wasn't very productive otherwise. This thread can be about solutions, or pointless complaints about people who don't like or have good access to HnPs, are flying in crowded skies.
I asked for practical approaches to get to point B. 'Just practice lower and lower till you get there' is not really it. For all the practice flares I've done at altitude, I just don't have a feel for when I've planed out. I know it's flatter and slower, but no reference points.
For me personally, right now, I have very uneven strength in the shoulders due to the break, esp with external rotation. It doesn't really favor bad experimentation. I recently saw someone do a rear riser plane out at 15-20 ft, then slowly release and use his toggles to land. If I can give myself a good plan to do that, that's where I'd like to go.
Krip 2
Read Incident forum:latest post on sky hi injury
YMMV if your not ready for rears
One Jump Wonder
QuoteReally? I never let the same person pack my main and reserve. Even when I have used packers. I find that amazing that anyone would.
Some of us trust ourselves more than other people and have packed both our mains and reserves; although a six minute main pack job is a different animal from spending a few hours inspecting and repacking a reserve.
AFFI 0
billvon 2,414
>I never let the same person pack my main and reserve. Even when I
> have used packers. I find that amazing that anyone would.
You don't trust yourself?
>When I throw my main, I am looking for a reason to chop.
When I open I am looking for a way to land safely. I hope it's my main. If that's not going to work I hope it's my reserve. But I don't think either one is an ironclad guarantee of safety.
> have used packers. I find that amazing that anyone would.
You don't trust yourself?
>When I throw my main, I am looking for a reason to chop.
When I open I am looking for a way to land safely. I hope it's my main. If that's not going to work I hope it's my reserve. But I don't think either one is an ironclad guarantee of safety.
AFFI 0
QuoteBut I don't think either one is an ironclad guarantee of safety.
There are no guarantees in life eh?
I am curious - when you must go to your reserve, do you do it without hesitation, trust it as if you believe it is a guarantee?
tdog 0
Quote
Thanks for finding that link. I think this shows how important it is to have a plan that will work. The skydiver who had the problem in that incident was current and experienced flying a conservitively loaded canopy.
I know of a few incidents (mainly swooping, watched the broken legs leave the DZ, a lot when I have been out of town when visiting DZs) where someone lost grip on a toggle/lost grip on a riser/did not transition from risers to toggles effectively/did not use risers effectively.
I kind of discredited a lot of it to swoops gone bad. But a 190 square foot canopy did serious harm to this skydivers legs when he gave incorrect input. Proof that rear risers need to be practiced by all.
Back on thread topic:
I think it is very important, if one toggle is useless, to have a plan for the other, not to be invented on the jump, but part of your EPs planned now. I can't think of very many good reasons to keep one good toggle after you enter final. But I can think of a few good reasons why having your hands empty of toggles ready to use risers would be better, the primary reason being - if your hands slip off the risers or down the risers, at least you won't spiral your canopy...
But I am not an expert.
billvon 2,414
>when you must go to your reserve, do you do it without hesitation . . .l
Depends. If there is no way my main will land me safely (total, bag lock etc.) then I don't hesitate, because there's really no decision to be made. If I have a partial, then yes, often I will hesitate, try pumping the brakes, using the risers etc. before I make the final call.
Depends. If there is no way my main will land me safely (total, bag lock etc.) then I don't hesitate, because there's really no decision to be made. If I have a partial, then yes, often I will hesitate, try pumping the brakes, using the risers etc. before I make the final call.
Tonto 1
I've had 2 broken brake lines, and I elected to go to reserve both times, and landed without injury. (I jump a high and hot DZ, and neither canopy was rear riser friendly.)
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2879681;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread is a good reason to either practice landing on rears, or to go to your reserve.
If I had a broken brake line on my FX 93 or Velo 90, I'd probably land it.
t
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2879681;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread is a good reason to either practice landing on rears, or to go to your reserve.
If I had a broken brake line on my FX 93 or Velo 90, I'd probably land it.
t
It's the year of the Pig.
QuoteThis thread can be about solutions, or pointless complaints about people who don't like or have good access to HnPs, are flying in crowded skies.
Where in this thread have I said a single word about swooping in traffic? WTF?
QuoteI asked for practical approaches to get to point B. 'Just practice lower and lower till you get there' is not really it. For all the practice flares I've done at altitude, I just don't have a feel for when I've planed out. I know it's flatter and slower, but no reference points.
First off you totally missed the point of practice flares at altitude. Not to sound like a broken record here, but they are NOT done to help you with ground references. No they are done to help people learn the physical feel of the canopy just before the imminent stall. You know all that stuff about learning your canopy. Learniing the control range. Sure it is only one piece of the puzzle. But it is an important piece.
Get out there and jump. You've taken the necessary initial canopy control training (take more if required ... you think I took only one session of canopy control training ... hell no). Assuming you were paying attention in class, you have been given the theoretical knowledge, but it is now up to you to put that knowledge to good use by jumping, doing the drills, dedicating jumps towards canopy control. If you are expecting some sort internet explaination of how everything works, you are sorely mistaken. You're not going to get it. Ultimately it is you who will teach yourself how to land. Often it takes hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of attempts and some people get it faster than others.
My point all along was that rear risers are not to be feared. They require respect. You don't just go yanking on them. But they are not to be feared. They work very well when you know their range.
Try not to worry about the things you have no control over
>reserve if they need to?
If I need to? I'll use it.
On the other hand, if I have a problem on a main but I can likely land it safely? Well, I may have packed a minor mal on the main - but I also keep in mind that the same idiot probably packed the reserve.
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