riddler 0 #1 January 30, 2003 OK, going to boogies has me sensitized to the whole politics of packing. I'm talking about the people that pack professionally. To start off with, my understanding of the letter of the law is that only a few people are legally allowed to pack a main: the person jumping it, or a qualified rigger or someone under the direct supervision of a qualified rigger. With that understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong), the accepted practice is that at a DZ, there are many packers that pack student rigs and most are not 100% under the direct supervision of the rigger. Also, I've packed for friends and they've packed for me - a bit shady, perhaps, but this happens often and no one runs to the USPA or FAA and whines about it. And finally, there are professional packers that get paid (usually $5) to pack, and most of them (I think) are not riggers. I can accept all this. So ... It seems that there is some sort of packing "turf-war" that goes on at most DZs and most boogies. There are people who are sanctioned by some authority to pack at these functions and then there are others that are qualified to pack, that maybe I would prefer to pack my main, that are not part of the "union" and aren't supposed to get paid to pack there. So if I'm at a boogie, for instance, and there are several sanctioned packers, but I would prefer to pay $5 to a friend that I trust but is not in the local union, this is not allowed? Am I correct here, or not? If I am, something there doesn't seem right to me. If I'm jumping the rig, I should be able to pay whomever I feel comfortable to pack the main for me. I'm not asking to use anyone else's space or equipment - just a patch of land on the DZ. I just don't understand the whole turf issue. Is it a liability one for the DZ? Does the DZ get some sort of percentage from authorized packers? Or is this just a fight for territory and profit? Please let me know what you think or your experiences with this matter.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #2 January 30, 2003 QuoteTo start off with, my understanding of the letter of the law is that only a few people are legally allowed to pack a main: the person jumping it, or a qualified rigger or someone under the direct supervision of a qualified rigger. Last I heard, it was determined that "Under the supervision of a rigger" meant there was one on the DZ for questions, should they arise. QuoteAnd finally, there are professional packers that get paid (usually $5) to pack, and most of them (I think) are not riggers. While true that many of these packers are not riggers, all that I have dealt with were trained, and supervised by one. Packing Cathy's people are a good example. The majority of them are not riggers, but she is. She also stands behind her work. You have a mal and a reserve ride due to a packing error from one of her staff, she repacks your reserve free. Personally, I have paid a packer twice, and got the 2 hardest opening I have ever had (I fly Sabre's) from them. I trust my packjobs, and unless I absolutely MUST have it done by someone (debrief and hot load, ect.), I pack my own.It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #3 January 30, 2003 A lot of DZs won't allow anyone other than their packers to pack(openly) and charge for it. As far as having someone else do it for you goes that's in your hands, let your conscious be your guide. PM sunshine and ask her about this and EloyPS: spelling and drinking don't mix "It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #4 January 30, 2003 QuotePacking Cathy's people are a good example. Just want to add here that I am not trying to slight anyone or question their ability. I'm sure most or all of the pro outfits or even individuals are very good - they wouldn't be in the business long if they weren't. But again, if I feel more comfortable paying someone I know and trust $5, rather than someone I don't know from Adam (or Eve) is that wrong? And why exactly? I just want to get a better understanding of this issue.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #5 January 30, 2003 In Australia, to get your A licence, you have to have you CI's approval to pack a main parachute for yourself, or a licenced skydiver. The CI writes his approval in your log book, and also notes to which canopies the approval relates. That is, you can pack parachutes for anyone with a licence (ie not students). Then we have the Packer B rating: "The privileges of Packer "B" shall be to inspect, pack and carry out daily maintenance on main parachutes with which he is familiar and competent." OpReg 10.4.1 Packer A: The privileges of a Packer "A" shall be: (a) To exercise the privileges of a Packer "B"; (b) To inspect, pack, certify as airworthy and carry out daily maintenance on reserve and emergency parachutes with which he/she is familiar and competent. OpReg 10.4.2 And finally, there is the rigger: The privileges of a Rigger shall be: (a) To exercise the privileges of a Packer “A”; (b) To carry out canopy repairs provided the repair does not include any design alteration; (c) To carry out modifications or approved alterations to approved specifications; (d) To manufacture non-certified parachute parts, and, if a CASA certificate of approval is held, to manufacture certified parachute parts in accordance with the manufacturer’s specification. OpReg 11.2.1 Why doesn't the USPA have similar ratings?-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #6 January 30, 2003 QuoteWhy doesn't the USPA have similar ratings? Because packing in the USA is regulated by the Federal Government via the FAA, not the USPA. This is why, in the BSR's, you only see refenences to packing you main canopy, not others.It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
indyz 1 #7 January 30, 2003 I would feel guilty undercutting a staff packer, usually a teenager who is doing it to finance his AFF or his first car or something. If the DZO says, "these are the staff packers," then as far as I am concerned, they are the only ones who should be able to charge for pack jobs on the DZ. It's their job and their place of business; you really don't have a right to bring your own business in. Honestly, if your buddy packs for you and you slip him a fiver, nobody will say anything. If he makes a regular thing of it, I would expect that he will be told to knock it off. Personally, I would rather that you just owe me a pack job or maybe a beer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #8 January 30, 2003 QuoteQuoteWhy doesn't the USPA have similar ratings? Because packing in the USA is regulated by the Federal Government via the FAA, not the USPA. This is why, in the BSR's, you only see refenences to packing you main canopy, not others. ok why does it come under the jurisdiction of the FAA? -- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #9 January 30, 2003 Quote why does it come under the jurisdiction of the FAA? It's the government, it doesn't have to make sense.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #10 January 30, 2003 Don't you know the days of the professional packer are coming to an end? Pilotdaves Packmaster 3000 Automatic Packing Machine will change the world! Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #11 January 30, 2003 QuoteLast I heard, it was determined that "Under the supervision of a rigger" meant there was one on the DZ for questions, should they arise. That has been changed. The FAA added the word "direct", so now it it is "under the direct supervision". Technically, the rigger has to be standing there watching to ensure the parachute is packed correctly, and then take responsibility for that pack job. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #12 January 30, 2003 I am a staff packer at my DZ, so here's my take. If its a big boogie, one or two pack jobs isn't going to be even noticed. For instance, at the AOT boogie back in September, I was packing as fast as I could and still had to turn some people away, there were just not enough packers. At that point, I could seriously care less. Now, if the staff packers don't have anything to pack and someone is paying some "joe skydiver" to pack his/her rig, then I'll be fairly disappointed, not necissarily mad, that depends on their attitude really. If it was something along the lines of "yeah, this is my friend, he packs for me all the time when we travel together...yada yada" then more then likely I won't care. The DZO might, since I'm not the only staff packer. However, if its someone who is doing that to be an asshole, etc, then I'd have a problem with it, I bet the DZO would have a problem too. Basically it comes down to, are you being an asshole, if so, then I have a problem, so at that point, YOU have a problem. That applies to other things in life besides packing, though. --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #13 January 30, 2003 Quote I would feel guilty undercutting a staff packer, usually a teenager who is doing it to finance his AFF or his first car or something. Personally, I would not. To point out the obvious, we are dealing with life and death choices, and to me that's more significant than the morals of who gets paid. I should have the choice to choose whomever I feel comfortable with doing this. It is my life, and as much as I respect other skydivers, that is more important than someone else's AFF or their first car. Of course, all this is aside of good emergency procedures Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #14 January 30, 2003 Quote To point out the obvious, we are dealing with life and death choices, and to me that's more significant than the morals of who gets paid On that note, I'd rather see you get packed by me, since I know that I'm a really good packer (although, I do have an "off" packjob once every blue moon, sorry Duece) and I don't know how well that other guy packs. I guess I'm one of those packers who takes extreme pride in his work and wants to see you have a fast packjob AND a great opening.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #15 January 30, 2003 At WFFC I saw people just walking up to jumpers that just landed offering to pack and no one cared. The ever infamous "Pack jobs $5" shirts on a few packers got business too by just walking around. Its usually only when the DZO is getting a portion of the money or can charge for "packing space" is it an issue in who packs your rig. I've seen a few packers that were staff at a DZ that worked full time making better cash then I make. I'm not going to feel obligated to only pay someone like that if my buddy is needing cash and I don't feel like packing.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #16 January 30, 2003 I'll let you pack for me if you promise to never pack naked in public. That thread was a little much for me Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #17 January 30, 2003 OK - I'll bite. Is this thing for fuckin' real, or what?Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #18 January 30, 2003 Quote I'll let you pack for me if you promise to never pack naked in public. That thread was a little much for me Bwwaahahaha laugh> Your canopy and I, nekid on the packing mat, alone together...folding, tucking, pushing...deeeeep into the d-bag...HAHHAAHAHAHAHA (ok, I think this post is a direct result of having slept 4 hours in the past 48)--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyz 0 #19 January 30, 2003 I disagree,I'm a packer for my Dz and i don't mind at all,if his buddy wants to pack it so be it,i'm nobody to be telling anyone they can't pack it unless it's me!I see that as selfish,I'm there to help my dz grow not my pocket!!There is times i pack for free,just to help out fellow skydivers out.But if someone was to say that could not pack for a friend.there would be problems! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #20 January 30, 2003 QuoteThere is times i pack for free,just to help out fellow skydivers out. As I do, more times then I know I've helped someone when they just couldn't get the canopy into the bag, etc... QuoteBut if someone was to say that could not pack for a friend.there would be problems! I think you misunderstood what I said. What I said in my previous post is that I really don't care unless you're being an asshole. In that, is that you're setting up shop trying to take away a LOT of my business. Packing for a friend or two, who cares, packing for 10 random other people that you don't know, well then, that's the staff packer's job.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyz 0 #21 January 30, 2003 Your right ! I don't think joe blow should roll up and start packing,I mean like in Eloy you pull that stunt and you'll have every packer on your ass!Witch i think is bullsh*t,But i understand what your getting at! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #22 January 30, 2003 QuoteOK - I'll bite. Is this thing for fuckin' real, or what? Its real. But only in my mind. Someday... someday... (that one is actually an industrial oven or something that i modified in photoshop) Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peckerhead 0 #23 January 30, 2003 Pack your own and don't worry about it....unless you have some sort of handicap. I have learned my lesson, the worst openings I have ever had were on someone elses packjobs. But hey, that's what you get for 5 bucks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #24 January 30, 2003 The FAA officials I spoke w/ at DeWolf's course said they understand 'direct supervision' as: 1. immeadiately available on site to answer questions from packer. 2. Takes responsibility for the work they 'supervise' If the supervising rigger has other non-rigging duties on site they are not directly supervising. I.E. cutting grass, running manifest, cleaning toilets, cooking food, flying planes, etc etc. Basically the supervising rigger just has to be present in the packing area. Some packing areas are larger than others...Ken "Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyThomas 0 #25 January 30, 2003 Do you offer to pay for injuries incurred during hard openings? There's a tougher politics question. What liability (U.S. favorite lawsuit word) does the packer have? After all, if they aren't jumping it, why would they care about the opening? Faster = $$$ how did the phrase go? Quotefasta pack job, fasta opening Thomas Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
