ChrisL 2 #26 August 2, 2007 QuoteDon't call it noise just because it's not presented in a nice and fluffy manner. I'm not. Posts that say things like "So-and-so is an idiot" or come across as outright insulting or condescending are largely useless even if they are true or have useful information in them. They immediately alienate the person they are directed at and basically reduce their value as a teaching tool to naught. Good information presented in an antagonistic way is noise or might as well be because the intended recipient will stop listening with an open mind as soon as they feel insulted or get angry and defensive. Its not necessary to be "nice" as you say. Be direct. Be blunt. Be factual. Thats all fine. Cross the line into demeaning and it no longer serves any purpose other than for the person presenting the information to vent. Thats noise.__ My mighty steed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #27 August 2, 2007 The best thing that can be learned from an experience like this is that it should never be repeated. This is clearly a huge lack of judgement on the part of many people. As a tandem videographer I have been burned by lurkers who don't listen a few times. Mostly the ones who don't think they need to track off when the TM waves off. (That is my rule.) These days I am pretty "hard" on people who want to lurk a tandem I am videoing. People who have not proven thier skill level don't get to come with. (and I am not even a TM)~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #28 August 2, 2007 Hint: unless you are a staff videographer or were on the 300-way world record formation, don't waste your time by asking if you can lurk me doing a tandem. IOW, if you have to ask, you don't have enough experience. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #29 August 2, 2007 The last guy who claimed "optics" got fired. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #30 August 2, 2007 QuoteWhat is the minimum number of jumps required to get a Strong rating? I know in the 90s in the US it was 500 - which IMHO was way too low. But if this is still the case it is ironic that 500 jumps is required before one can do rw with a tandem, yet one can get a rating. Maybe my information is old. Like me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your information is still current. You still need a minimum of 500 jumps (on ram-airs, 3 years in the sport, another instructor rating, one reserve ride, etc.) to earn a Strong Tandem Instructor rating. Tandem and RW require different skill sets. The 500 jump minimum (for TI) implies that after saving his own life 500 times, it has become second nature for a young TI. RW requires a different skill set (spatial and temporal awareness, tracking, etc.) that loosely reveals a skydiver's overall abilities and awareness. Back when I earned my TI rating (1986 in Strassbourg, France) a French DZO told me that he believed that RW skill was a good measure of potential to become a TI. He went on to explain that RW skill is a good measure of overall skill, confidence, awareness, ability to handle complex situations rapidly-changing situations, etc. IOW RW skills do not directly relate to tandem-specific skills, but they are a good measure of overall competence and confidence. Sadly, far too many young skydivers believe that arrogance equals competence. Tee! Hee! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #31 August 2, 2007 Quote On a side note, I've also learned that the place for discussion of this type of video isn't on DZ.com, but in private with the people concerned. It would appear .commers are far more interested in belittling the jumpers than giving constructive advice and guidance. No belittling intended. Quote I came knowing I was in the wrong, but looking for advice from those with more experience - I went away knowing I was wrong, and save for a selected few posts with genuine constructive guidance (such as yours) the bulk of the text has not been like this. I gave advice. I posted the rules and requirements for the activity. No point in discussing tips and techniques at this point Quote Perhaps we should encourage future posters that rather than try and ask for guidance from some of the most experienced jumpers in the world, and from such a wide, useful cross-section of jumpers, they should in fact bury the video in the archives, and their head in the sand. While I am shocked at the event itself, I am pleased you has the stones to post the video, as it is an example others may learn from and it's a incident that may open some eyes and remind them of what the rules are and why they exist, fortunately no one got hurt or killed. As for the tone of replies, this is a serious game we play with the ultimate consequence being death. Sometimes reality is harsh and things are serious. Or as one of my instructors once put it, "Slack valley is over there, this is skydiving."---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #32 August 2, 2007 Quote What kind of cereal box did that instructor get his rating in??? He may have the skill to have a rating but not the judgment.Almost died twice in the same dive... True, but we have ALL made mistakes, and odds are he's learned something from it. I'd make a small wager he's got a different view of lurkers now.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites slotperfect 7 #33 August 2, 2007 After watching the video twice, and cringing both times, I re-read all of the replies. All that I would say about the incident has already been said, but I would like to comment on this stamtement: QuotePerhaps we should encourage future posters that rather than try and ask for guidance from some of the most experienced jumpers in the world, and from such a wide, useful cross-section of jumpers, they should in fact bury the video in the archives, and their head in the sand. There can be (and usually is) great value in sharing the details of an incident with others so lessons learned can have their maximum benefit. The two big questions to ask are: to what end, and at whose expense? In this case, all of those highly experienced jumpers that make up the useful cross-section you speak of are available here without exposing the incident to the forums. You can contact them via PM or email and ask them to comment so those involved can learn. If you don't know who to go to, there are plenty of folks here (including me) that can point you in the right direction regarding who to talk to. I am not telling you what course of action to take - expose it in a public forum or "hide your head in the sand;" - that's a judgment call only you can make. What I am saying is that there is often more than one way to achieve the desired result in cases like this while being reasonably discreet. The one thing that is completely certain is that if you post it in the open, you are going to get opinions that you either didn't want or don't like or didn't mean to solicit. Nuff said.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VideoFly 0 #34 August 2, 2007 Even though people get mad at me, I maintain a firm NO-LURKER (with the exception of very few instructors) rule if I am going to shoot video. Fortunately, our Tandem Masters respect my opinion, although on several occasions, I have had to give jumps to another videographer, instead of compromising my safety and the safety of others. Without experiencing the thrill of repetitive flight in close proximity to tandems, many skydivers have little idea of the variables and potential dangers involved. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #35 August 3, 2007 Good on ya for sticking to your guns. I have a rule that video or tandem, no one lurks unless I've jumped with them, or personally know their skill and ability. It has made some people mad, and I have passed up jumps because of it, but I have never been hit as a videographer or TI since I started using this rule.Previously I'd had lurkers not be able to stay where they said they would, or have trouble with fall rates, and most of those would heed my warning "if you can't get in, get away", but it took getting hit twice by the same person on the same skydive to make my rule. ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites aironscott 3 #36 August 3, 2007 Even if you were on those 300-way loads, you're most likely not jumping with me if I'm doing a tandem. I've adopted a no RW policy with tandems. Only took me a few thousand tandems to make it carte blanche (guess maybe I'm too much of an optimist). Hell, I'm to the point now that I ask to not jump with outside video anymore if possible. Although I will occasionally jump with a fellow respected TI if the student is someone that they are asking me to jump with. Too many people think that tandem skydiving is "just another skydive". It ain't by a long shot. Too many TI's think that tandems are mindless "meat-hauling" jumps. Their turn for an opinion changing experience is coming. And complacencey by all parties involved, kills. The probalem is that we're idiot proofing tandems... and skydiving. It used to be that we didn't need drouges. All of us agree that drouges are the single greatest thing to ever come to tandem skydiving. But the people that were doing tdms before drouges were straight up good and tough. If they weren't they got darwined fast. Now days almost anyone can get their tandem rating and go to work. We've got butt straps and Y straps and AADs and etc., etc., etc. Why? Because as we've dumbed down the sport more and more and the general population (idiots) are able to get qualified to do it. Then they somehow live to get their 500 jumps and 3 years in sport. Then they find a way to fuck up a RSL so that now we need a skyhook. But progress is good. No shit. In my youth I wore goggles and a t-shirton tandems. Sometimes shorts (if it was with a dude). Now there is a Jack hook knife on my pants and a hard helmet on my head, and gloves on my hands even in August. But whatever, you all can do as you please. It is stupid to do RW with a tandem unless you are an experienced TMI. Even the experienced AFFI without having TMI experience doesn't belong on a TDM load. Take it for what its worth. Aaron “God Damn Mountain Dew MotherFuckers!” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bob.dino 0 #37 August 3, 2007 Quote It is stupid to do RW with a tandem unless you are an experienced TMI. Even the experienced AFFI without having TMI experience doesn't belong on a TDM load. What does being an experienced TM give you over being an experienced RWer? I don't have a tandem rating, so I don't know what I don't know. And yes, I'm aware that my second sentence pretty much answers the first, but I'm looking for you to spell out some examples for me - I don't want to have to get a tandem rating just to properly understand the point you're making . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #38 August 3, 2007 The problem is that we're idiot proofing tandems... and skydiving. Quote As you well know that will never happen....they just keep coming up with better idiots. ...and I was one of those no drogue guys...on a freakin' MIGHTY MAC! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #39 August 3, 2007 5 way tandem You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mixoligist 0 #40 August 3, 2007 READ THIS AGAIN......... THIS IS GOSPEL.... My thoughts exactly.....well said sir...thank you QuoteToo many people think that tandem skydiving is "just another skydive". It ain't by a long shot. Too many TI's think that tandems are mindless "meat-hauling" jumps. Their turn for an opinion changing experience is coming. And complacencey by all parties involved, kills. Now days almost anyone can get their tandem rating and go to work. We've got butt straps and Y straps and AADs and etc., etc., etc. Why? Because as we've dumbed down the sport more and more and the general population (idiots) are able to get qualified to do it. Then they somehow live to get their 500 jumps and 3 years in sport. Then they find a way to fuck up a RSL so that now we need a skyhook. Aaron.................................. Better you than me .................................. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #41 August 3, 2007 You know, the sport and industry has changed enough that 200 jumps is no longer enough for a "D" licence. The amount of time and difficulty of getting 200 jumps has diminished to the point that it was decided that more experience was needed. Why not for the tandem rating? Times have changed. There have been "meetings more the minds" about how to increase the safety of Tandems Jumping, and keeping the image of Tandems good. Have they discussed increasing the requirements? It's time for change. Lots of it in Skydiving Instruction.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BIGUN 1,053 #42 August 3, 2007 QuoteYou know, the sport and industry has changed enough that 200 jumps is no longer enough for a "D" licence. The amount of time and difficulty of getting 200 jumps has diminished to the point that it was decided that more experience was needed. Why not for the tandem rating? Times have changed. There have been "meetings more the minds" about how to increase the safety of Tandems Jumping, and keeping the image of Tandems good. Have they discussed increasing the requirements? I think the 3 year "in-sport" rule is a good one and should be the same with all Instructor Ratings. Course, some of that went "POOF" when they changed the JM to I ratings. The short course to this is; I'm with you on, "It's time for change. Lots of it in Skydiving Instruction."Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jimmytavino 16 #43 August 3, 2007 " i'm to the point that i ask not to jump with outside video" "will jump with a fellow TI" reply to first statement..... I can appreciate a no lurker rule, but unless you have personal problems with video people, there's NOTHIN' wrong with a cameraperson joining the skydive... On a number of jumps I have found myself being asked to assume the role of 'safety monitor' as well as video man. I was on a jump once , where the main container somehow opened shortly after the drogue was thrown.... the TM was Unaware.. the student oblivious... But I was in the only place which had a great VIEW of the situation... as the lines stows started coming undone and the bag began bouncing further and further over the TM's back,,,,, i swooped in close to them, @ around 9 grand,,, and started pointing at them, with my left hand and simulating a deployment move with my right hand,,, and the TM got the message, and pulled the d release handle.A tm all alone,,, might not have gotten the idea of what was happening behind/above them...so an outside camera CAN serve as a guardian angel...don't be so fast to dismiss it.. We all know of instances where a video person has untangled a drogue bridle which had snagged on the tandem pair... in one case , I believe wrapping around the TM's neck.... reply # 2 what is it that makes a T I any better at chasing a tandem?? than a capable RW jumper????? you're way better off with camera flyers lurking you,,, even if they leave the cameras on the ground... trust me..... Most of the "newbie" TMs which are mentioned here......have spent their fair share of time on the 'learning curve', sliding around, struggling with a student or two,,, losing eye contact with their teammate ( the camera!! ) , and sometimes, moving all over the place..... Well guess who is chasing them ???? right. the video guy... Guess who KNOWs how to be in the RIGHT place, from exit through the dive, and during deployment???? right !!! the Camera Guys & Gals....take one along with confidence.... jumping is a shared experience with each case different and unique.. I would not have a "hard and fast Rule" excluding lurkers... but then again "I ain't the tm"....... " If I skydive safely, will You skydive safely "??? jmy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites aironscott 3 #44 August 4, 2007 Don't get me wrong. There are a few video guys that I look forward to jumping with on tandems. David Hoyt, Chris Pope, Roland Barksdale, Ash White, and Willspeed. None of them are TIs to my knowledge. Other than Hoyt I haven't jumped with any of them in a few years. But I'd love to tomorrow. That being said, there is quite a list of TIs that I would also love to have lurk a tandem that I'm on because I know that they know the deal. And it would be fun for me and my student if they were along. I can't say the same for experienced RW people or AFFI's (of the non-TMI type). (Although there are a few of them out there that I like to jump with). If you are jumping with a TMI that needs to have a safety jumper along you should re-think wheather or not it's a good idea for them to be doing a tandem in the first place. The student is counting on the TMI to be able to get them safely (and funly) from 12 or 13k to the ground. If someone else goes along, they are counting on me to make sure that everybody is going to be safe. Sometimes it's very hard to gaurntee that safety when a third party is involved. Obviously there are no gaurntees, but I try to make it as close to one as possible... but that's just me. Stick around this sport long enough and you'll watch someone go in. Be a rigger long enough and you find a table total. Its just the way it is. Safety first. Fun and comfort are very distant seconds. That's they way it's got to be. Bounce enough students through stupidity and this will all go away. No shit. Aaron“God Damn Mountain Dew MotherFuckers!” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #45 August 5, 2007 Forget the guardian angel ... this TI needs a better packer! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rain-man 0 #46 August 6, 2007 Ross - stop trying to BIG yourself up. You aint all that and you should not have posted this. Now that you have stirred up crap what are you going to do? Go back to that DZ? I bet they all love you there.Word on the streets is that you like to steal other people's video ideas (or actual footage) anyways...well anyways one of your last ones was stolen footage pawned off as your own... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RossDagley 0 #47 August 7, 2007 Yes I'll go back to that DZ - if there's an issue with me posting a safety related video on a public forum for discussion as to how to stop it happening again, and the DZ object to that discussion, it's not a DZ worthy of jumping at. I've already spoken to the TI since this was posted - he didn't have a problem with it - whats your beef sunshine? Interesting you comment on "stolen" footage also. You've clearly never seen any of my videos. It's pretty easy to hide behind your keyboard eh, making accusations you can't substantiate. Whatever. Whats done is done - I'm over it. Keep your chin up son. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #48 August 7, 2007 QuoteInteresting you comment on "stolen" footage also. You've clearly never seen any of my videos. Really? Badly lurking tandems and shooting video under 200 jumps? Not holding back one bit, huh? Personally, I would have been embarassed at my lack of good judgement if I was involved in that tandem. What could possibly be the purpose for three jumpers plus a video to be lurking a tandem? All of that without mentioning the lack of general experience among those lurkers. Take a deep breath, and slow down. For your own sake and that of those around you. Just jumping out of a plane is hardcore enough, you don't have to push the limits of good sense to make it cool. Ego never won anyone a gold medal, got anyone a cover shot, nor won the respect of their peers (or those in a class above you). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RossDagley 0 #49 August 7, 2007 Hey. Maybe I overreacted to someone trolling for an aggressive response. If so, I apologise. It was 1am ish when I posted that, after a busy, long day, and like a fish with bait, I guess I "bit" I've never shot freefall stills or video in my life - which is why it's so easy for me to defend the stolen video comment. The only videos I've only ever shot video in the tunnel - there's very little footage of flying in the Bedford tunnel with a helmet cam, and even less has been publically released. Again - very easy to defend. Thanks for your kind thoughts about slowing down etc - I have (obviously) received many PM's regarding this thread, and whilst there's a good chunk of "noise" as somebody put it, theres also a great deal of constructive comments and criticism, which was the exact objective of this post. For that, I'm grateful. I think this thread has served its purpose. A lesson learned by me, and hopefully by those I jumped with that day, and we've picked over the bones here too for advice from those I respect. Thanks guys for your help - most don't know me, but you've wanted to help and advise. Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites danornan 64 #50 August 8, 2007 A LOT OF GOOD LESSONS CAN BE LEARNED OR REMEMBERED - Ross, thanks for your post. Hopefully all will take the positives from it and the follow-ups and they will not be repeated. After all, that is the purpose of this forum.Dano Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
diablopilot 2 #31 August 2, 2007 Quote On a side note, I've also learned that the place for discussion of this type of video isn't on DZ.com, but in private with the people concerned. It would appear .commers are far more interested in belittling the jumpers than giving constructive advice and guidance. No belittling intended. Quote I came knowing I was in the wrong, but looking for advice from those with more experience - I went away knowing I was wrong, and save for a selected few posts with genuine constructive guidance (such as yours) the bulk of the text has not been like this. I gave advice. I posted the rules and requirements for the activity. No point in discussing tips and techniques at this point Quote Perhaps we should encourage future posters that rather than try and ask for guidance from some of the most experienced jumpers in the world, and from such a wide, useful cross-section of jumpers, they should in fact bury the video in the archives, and their head in the sand. While I am shocked at the event itself, I am pleased you has the stones to post the video, as it is an example others may learn from and it's a incident that may open some eyes and remind them of what the rules are and why they exist, fortunately no one got hurt or killed. As for the tone of replies, this is a serious game we play with the ultimate consequence being death. Sometimes reality is harsh and things are serious. Or as one of my instructors once put it, "Slack valley is over there, this is skydiving."---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #32 August 2, 2007 Quote What kind of cereal box did that instructor get his rating in??? He may have the skill to have a rating but not the judgment.Almost died twice in the same dive... True, but we have ALL made mistakes, and odds are he's learned something from it. I'd make a small wager he's got a different view of lurkers now.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #33 August 2, 2007 After watching the video twice, and cringing both times, I re-read all of the replies. All that I would say about the incident has already been said, but I would like to comment on this stamtement: QuotePerhaps we should encourage future posters that rather than try and ask for guidance from some of the most experienced jumpers in the world, and from such a wide, useful cross-section of jumpers, they should in fact bury the video in the archives, and their head in the sand. There can be (and usually is) great value in sharing the details of an incident with others so lessons learned can have their maximum benefit. The two big questions to ask are: to what end, and at whose expense? In this case, all of those highly experienced jumpers that make up the useful cross-section you speak of are available here without exposing the incident to the forums. You can contact them via PM or email and ask them to comment so those involved can learn. If you don't know who to go to, there are plenty of folks here (including me) that can point you in the right direction regarding who to talk to. I am not telling you what course of action to take - expose it in a public forum or "hide your head in the sand;" - that's a judgment call only you can make. What I am saying is that there is often more than one way to achieve the desired result in cases like this while being reasonably discreet. The one thing that is completely certain is that if you post it in the open, you are going to get opinions that you either didn't want or don't like or didn't mean to solicit. Nuff said.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VideoFly 0 #34 August 2, 2007 Even though people get mad at me, I maintain a firm NO-LURKER (with the exception of very few instructors) rule if I am going to shoot video. Fortunately, our Tandem Masters respect my opinion, although on several occasions, I have had to give jumps to another videographer, instead of compromising my safety and the safety of others. Without experiencing the thrill of repetitive flight in close proximity to tandems, many skydivers have little idea of the variables and potential dangers involved. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #35 August 3, 2007 Good on ya for sticking to your guns. I have a rule that video or tandem, no one lurks unless I've jumped with them, or personally know their skill and ability. It has made some people mad, and I have passed up jumps because of it, but I have never been hit as a videographer or TI since I started using this rule.Previously I'd had lurkers not be able to stay where they said they would, or have trouble with fall rates, and most of those would heed my warning "if you can't get in, get away", but it took getting hit twice by the same person on the same skydive to make my rule. ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aironscott 3 #36 August 3, 2007 Even if you were on those 300-way loads, you're most likely not jumping with me if I'm doing a tandem. I've adopted a no RW policy with tandems. Only took me a few thousand tandems to make it carte blanche (guess maybe I'm too much of an optimist). Hell, I'm to the point now that I ask to not jump with outside video anymore if possible. Although I will occasionally jump with a fellow respected TI if the student is someone that they are asking me to jump with. Too many people think that tandem skydiving is "just another skydive". It ain't by a long shot. Too many TI's think that tandems are mindless "meat-hauling" jumps. Their turn for an opinion changing experience is coming. And complacencey by all parties involved, kills. The probalem is that we're idiot proofing tandems... and skydiving. It used to be that we didn't need drouges. All of us agree that drouges are the single greatest thing to ever come to tandem skydiving. But the people that were doing tdms before drouges were straight up good and tough. If they weren't they got darwined fast. Now days almost anyone can get their tandem rating and go to work. We've got butt straps and Y straps and AADs and etc., etc., etc. Why? Because as we've dumbed down the sport more and more and the general population (idiots) are able to get qualified to do it. Then they somehow live to get their 500 jumps and 3 years in sport. Then they find a way to fuck up a RSL so that now we need a skyhook. But progress is good. No shit. In my youth I wore goggles and a t-shirton tandems. Sometimes shorts (if it was with a dude). Now there is a Jack hook knife on my pants and a hard helmet on my head, and gloves on my hands even in August. But whatever, you all can do as you please. It is stupid to do RW with a tandem unless you are an experienced TMI. Even the experienced AFFI without having TMI experience doesn't belong on a TDM load. Take it for what its worth. Aaron “God Damn Mountain Dew MotherFuckers!” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #37 August 3, 2007 Quote It is stupid to do RW with a tandem unless you are an experienced TMI. Even the experienced AFFI without having TMI experience doesn't belong on a TDM load. What does being an experienced TM give you over being an experienced RWer? I don't have a tandem rating, so I don't know what I don't know. And yes, I'm aware that my second sentence pretty much answers the first, but I'm looking for you to spell out some examples for me - I don't want to have to get a tandem rating just to properly understand the point you're making . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #38 August 3, 2007 The problem is that we're idiot proofing tandems... and skydiving. Quote As you well know that will never happen....they just keep coming up with better idiots. ...and I was one of those no drogue guys...on a freakin' MIGHTY MAC! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #39 August 3, 2007 5 way tandem You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mixoligist 0 #40 August 3, 2007 READ THIS AGAIN......... THIS IS GOSPEL.... My thoughts exactly.....well said sir...thank you QuoteToo many people think that tandem skydiving is "just another skydive". It ain't by a long shot. Too many TI's think that tandems are mindless "meat-hauling" jumps. Their turn for an opinion changing experience is coming. And complacencey by all parties involved, kills. Now days almost anyone can get their tandem rating and go to work. We've got butt straps and Y straps and AADs and etc., etc., etc. Why? Because as we've dumbed down the sport more and more and the general population (idiots) are able to get qualified to do it. Then they somehow live to get their 500 jumps and 3 years in sport. Then they find a way to fuck up a RSL so that now we need a skyhook. Aaron.................................. Better you than me .................................. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #41 August 3, 2007 You know, the sport and industry has changed enough that 200 jumps is no longer enough for a "D" licence. The amount of time and difficulty of getting 200 jumps has diminished to the point that it was decided that more experience was needed. Why not for the tandem rating? Times have changed. There have been "meetings more the minds" about how to increase the safety of Tandems Jumping, and keeping the image of Tandems good. Have they discussed increasing the requirements? It's time for change. Lots of it in Skydiving Instruction.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,053 #42 August 3, 2007 QuoteYou know, the sport and industry has changed enough that 200 jumps is no longer enough for a "D" licence. The amount of time and difficulty of getting 200 jumps has diminished to the point that it was decided that more experience was needed. Why not for the tandem rating? Times have changed. There have been "meetings more the minds" about how to increase the safety of Tandems Jumping, and keeping the image of Tandems good. Have they discussed increasing the requirements? I think the 3 year "in-sport" rule is a good one and should be the same with all Instructor Ratings. Course, some of that went "POOF" when they changed the JM to I ratings. The short course to this is; I'm with you on, "It's time for change. Lots of it in Skydiving Instruction."Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #43 August 3, 2007 " i'm to the point that i ask not to jump with outside video" "will jump with a fellow TI" reply to first statement..... I can appreciate a no lurker rule, but unless you have personal problems with video people, there's NOTHIN' wrong with a cameraperson joining the skydive... On a number of jumps I have found myself being asked to assume the role of 'safety monitor' as well as video man. I was on a jump once , where the main container somehow opened shortly after the drogue was thrown.... the TM was Unaware.. the student oblivious... But I was in the only place which had a great VIEW of the situation... as the lines stows started coming undone and the bag began bouncing further and further over the TM's back,,,,, i swooped in close to them, @ around 9 grand,,, and started pointing at them, with my left hand and simulating a deployment move with my right hand,,, and the TM got the message, and pulled the d release handle.A tm all alone,,, might not have gotten the idea of what was happening behind/above them...so an outside camera CAN serve as a guardian angel...don't be so fast to dismiss it.. We all know of instances where a video person has untangled a drogue bridle which had snagged on the tandem pair... in one case , I believe wrapping around the TM's neck.... reply # 2 what is it that makes a T I any better at chasing a tandem?? than a capable RW jumper????? you're way better off with camera flyers lurking you,,, even if they leave the cameras on the ground... trust me..... Most of the "newbie" TMs which are mentioned here......have spent their fair share of time on the 'learning curve', sliding around, struggling with a student or two,,, losing eye contact with their teammate ( the camera!! ) , and sometimes, moving all over the place..... Well guess who is chasing them ???? right. the video guy... Guess who KNOWs how to be in the RIGHT place, from exit through the dive, and during deployment???? right !!! the Camera Guys & Gals....take one along with confidence.... jumping is a shared experience with each case different and unique.. I would not have a "hard and fast Rule" excluding lurkers... but then again "I ain't the tm"....... " If I skydive safely, will You skydive safely "??? jmy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aironscott 3 #44 August 4, 2007 Don't get me wrong. There are a few video guys that I look forward to jumping with on tandems. David Hoyt, Chris Pope, Roland Barksdale, Ash White, and Willspeed. None of them are TIs to my knowledge. Other than Hoyt I haven't jumped with any of them in a few years. But I'd love to tomorrow. That being said, there is quite a list of TIs that I would also love to have lurk a tandem that I'm on because I know that they know the deal. And it would be fun for me and my student if they were along. I can't say the same for experienced RW people or AFFI's (of the non-TMI type). (Although there are a few of them out there that I like to jump with). If you are jumping with a TMI that needs to have a safety jumper along you should re-think wheather or not it's a good idea for them to be doing a tandem in the first place. The student is counting on the TMI to be able to get them safely (and funly) from 12 or 13k to the ground. If someone else goes along, they are counting on me to make sure that everybody is going to be safe. Sometimes it's very hard to gaurntee that safety when a third party is involved. Obviously there are no gaurntees, but I try to make it as close to one as possible... but that's just me. Stick around this sport long enough and you'll watch someone go in. Be a rigger long enough and you find a table total. Its just the way it is. Safety first. Fun and comfort are very distant seconds. That's they way it's got to be. Bounce enough students through stupidity and this will all go away. No shit. Aaron“God Damn Mountain Dew MotherFuckers!” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #45 August 5, 2007 Forget the guardian angel ... this TI needs a better packer! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rain-man 0 #46 August 6, 2007 Ross - stop trying to BIG yourself up. You aint all that and you should not have posted this. Now that you have stirred up crap what are you going to do? Go back to that DZ? I bet they all love you there.Word on the streets is that you like to steal other people's video ideas (or actual footage) anyways...well anyways one of your last ones was stolen footage pawned off as your own... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RossDagley 0 #47 August 7, 2007 Yes I'll go back to that DZ - if there's an issue with me posting a safety related video on a public forum for discussion as to how to stop it happening again, and the DZ object to that discussion, it's not a DZ worthy of jumping at. I've already spoken to the TI since this was posted - he didn't have a problem with it - whats your beef sunshine? Interesting you comment on "stolen" footage also. You've clearly never seen any of my videos. It's pretty easy to hide behind your keyboard eh, making accusations you can't substantiate. Whatever. Whats done is done - I'm over it. Keep your chin up son. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #48 August 7, 2007 QuoteInteresting you comment on "stolen" footage also. You've clearly never seen any of my videos. Really? Badly lurking tandems and shooting video under 200 jumps? Not holding back one bit, huh? Personally, I would have been embarassed at my lack of good judgement if I was involved in that tandem. What could possibly be the purpose for three jumpers plus a video to be lurking a tandem? All of that without mentioning the lack of general experience among those lurkers. Take a deep breath, and slow down. For your own sake and that of those around you. Just jumping out of a plane is hardcore enough, you don't have to push the limits of good sense to make it cool. Ego never won anyone a gold medal, got anyone a cover shot, nor won the respect of their peers (or those in a class above you). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RossDagley 0 #49 August 7, 2007 Hey. Maybe I overreacted to someone trolling for an aggressive response. If so, I apologise. It was 1am ish when I posted that, after a busy, long day, and like a fish with bait, I guess I "bit" I've never shot freefall stills or video in my life - which is why it's so easy for me to defend the stolen video comment. The only videos I've only ever shot video in the tunnel - there's very little footage of flying in the Bedford tunnel with a helmet cam, and even less has been publically released. Again - very easy to defend. Thanks for your kind thoughts about slowing down etc - I have (obviously) received many PM's regarding this thread, and whilst there's a good chunk of "noise" as somebody put it, theres also a great deal of constructive comments and criticism, which was the exact objective of this post. For that, I'm grateful. I think this thread has served its purpose. A lesson learned by me, and hopefully by those I jumped with that day, and we've picked over the bones here too for advice from those I respect. Thanks guys for your help - most don't know me, but you've wanted to help and advise. Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danornan 64 #50 August 8, 2007 A LOT OF GOOD LESSONS CAN BE LEARNED OR REMEMBERED - Ross, thanks for your post. Hopefully all will take the positives from it and the follow-ups and they will not be repeated. After all, that is the purpose of this forum.Dano Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
