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what next are you going to tell us that the earth is slowing down and days are getting longer?
at some point in the near future (geologically speaking, anyway), left uncorrected, International midnight will cross over the international date line!?
we need to stop this! we need to increase the earth's rotation! and bring the moon on in closer while we're at it
/troll
at some point in the near future (geologically speaking, anyway), left uncorrected, International midnight will cross over the international date line!?
we need to stop this! we need to increase the earth's rotation! and bring the moon on in closer while we're at it
/troll
My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?
I agree with the "Original" thread entry.
as far as ANY of "us" being civic minded, well,
to late!
We all jump out of aircraft that happen to burn fuel .....
& that's the end of our GreenPeace/ hapy face award nomination.![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]")
as far as ANY of "us" being civic minded, well,
to late!
We all jump out of aircraft that happen to burn fuel .....
& that's the end of our GreenPeace/ hapy face award nomination.
_______________________________
If I could be a Super Hero,
I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year.
http://www.hangout.no/speednews/
If I could be a Super Hero,
I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year.
http://www.hangout.no/speednews/
billvon 2,434
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
>What temperature should the earth be?
Depends who's asking. If it's a farmer who depends on the weather being OK to grow corn, it should stay the same temperature it is now. If it's a builder who builds homes and assumes X amount of rain a year so there are no mudslides, same thing. If you're a skydiver, it would surely suck to double the number of rain days due to higher temperatures, so you'd likely be in favor of cooler climates. If you're a cold blooded insect, the hotter the better - climate change works in your favor.
There is no fixed temperature for the planet. It will change gradually with time. If we push that change as fast as we possibly can, we may not like the results. An ocean water level rising .1 inch a year might give us 50 years to move out of coastal Florida; that's probably OK. 1 inch a year would give us 5-10 years; that's probably not OK. (Well, very few people would die, but it would be pretty unsettling.)
Depends who's asking. If it's a farmer who depends on the weather being OK to grow corn, it should stay the same temperature it is now. If it's a builder who builds homes and assumes X amount of rain a year so there are no mudslides, same thing. If you're a skydiver, it would surely suck to double the number of rain days due to higher temperatures, so you'd likely be in favor of cooler climates. If you're a cold blooded insect, the hotter the better - climate change works in your favor.
There is no fixed temperature for the planet. It will change gradually with time. If we push that change as fast as we possibly can, we may not like the results. An ocean water level rising .1 inch a year might give us 50 years to move out of coastal Florida; that's probably OK. 1 inch a year would give us 5-10 years; that's probably not OK. (Well, very few people would die, but it would be pretty unsettling.)
Quote
(BTW the Honda Civic hybrid is around $20K, which is around the price of the 'nice' version of the gas engine Civic.)
To be fair, Honda has been selling them for a loss, despite even tax incentives in the US. Tho it's possible they're be profitable at this price if they scaled up the production lines like Toyota is trying to do...and if people actually bought them
so do like billvon says and go buy one
My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?
QuoteThere is no fixed temperature for the planet. It will change gradually with time.
Exactly. It changes all the time with time.
QuoteIf we push that change as fast as we possibly can, we may not like the results.
Or, we may like it. Maybe the earth should be warmer than it is, and therefore we are helping the process. Who knows? Perhaps we averted a new Ice Age by doing what we have been doing. In many cases, the costs of action are worse than the costs of inaction. Maybe we've saved our asses with greenhouse gases. (Hey, that rhymes!)
QuoteAn ocean water level rising .1 inch a year might give us 50 years to move out of coastal Florida; that's probably OK. 1 inch a year would give us 5-10 years; that's probably not OK. (Well, very few people would die, but it would be pretty unsettling.)
This is perhaps the best point. We think the earth warming is bad not because of a natural progression, but because it might make us uncomfortable. This means that if the earth wanted to heat up, we would resist the nature of things by attempteing to prevent it. This is the opposite of enviromentalism. All of your hypotheticals dealt with how nature can make issues with human development.
Perhaps the environmental movement has its priorities all wrong. Perhaps the environmental movement does not want nature to run its course. Perhaps the environmental movement wants to preserver beachfront housing at the expense of the planet.
But the question remains. What temperature should the earth be? You made my point. That question cannot be answered.
Since we dont' know what temperature the earth should be, we do not know whether the change will be good or bad for the earth.
And EarthFirst! is what environmentalsm is about. Isn't it???
My wife is hotter than your wife.
Amazon 7
I actually do my part...
BUT a few caveats......
I live in Western WA...solar anything here is a waste of time and money. Too bad we don't have rain powered heaters.. oh wait we do its called hydro electric.
I do recycle quite a bit... and vegetable matter goes into a compost pile by the garden that gets most of the grass clippings and leaves from my trees and then the next year into the garden with the rest of the compost and is turned under to make better soil out of my rock strewn glacial till that I try to cultivate.
I did buy a diesel.. I have owned diesel vehicles for the last 15 years. I still have my 1982 Mercedes 300D but I dont think you would like my 3/4 ton 4x4 diesel Pickup that I use to tow my boats.. then again it gets 20 MPG ...if it had a gas engine that would be about half the gas mileage.
All the bulbs in my house are the energy efficient flourescents. The house is electric heat... which is abundant here in the NW.. althogh not as cheap but less expensive than natural gas. I also have a wood stove that I use to keep the bills down. I think wood smoke is a bit less polluting than is Oil smoke at least the smell of burning alder or maple is far more pleasant.
The house is very well insulated and I replaced some of the windows with more efficient models.
I dont have air conditioning...its WASHINGTON... there are maybe 5 days a year where AC would be called for.
I did buy a new fridge... just last year.
The house is from 1985 and is relatively new and the electrical system does not have leaks to ground all outlets have been checked for continuity.. as has the garage.
My thermostat stays set at 65 degrees year round.. and since I dont have AC.... it stays off all summer.
I grow a certain amount of my own food in my garden and have numerous fruit trees and also do it organically. I share quite a bit from the garden with freinds and relatives. I also eat quite a bit of seafood.. salmon halibut and other fish from the ocean... not ranch grown which is very polluting. I also share quite a bit of the fish and seafood I catch with others.. free.......such as the nearly 100 pounds of salmon I smoked at the DZ in the last few weeks and shared with the people I jump with.
I do think globally and very much ACT locally.
The point is some of us learned a long time ago that the environment is something we all have to live with.. I prefer mine to be a clean one... with air I can breathe. Some people dont give a shit.. and never will no matter how much they are exposed to people who do care.
Amazon
BUT a few caveats......
I live in Western WA...solar anything here is a waste of time and money. Too bad we don't have rain powered heaters.. oh wait we do its called hydro electric.
I do recycle quite a bit... and vegetable matter goes into a compost pile by the garden that gets most of the grass clippings and leaves from my trees and then the next year into the garden with the rest of the compost and is turned under to make better soil out of my rock strewn glacial till that I try to cultivate.
I did buy a diesel.. I have owned diesel vehicles for the last 15 years. I still have my 1982 Mercedes 300D but I dont think you would like my 3/4 ton 4x4 diesel Pickup that I use to tow my boats.. then again it gets 20 MPG ...if it had a gas engine that would be about half the gas mileage.
All the bulbs in my house are the energy efficient flourescents. The house is electric heat... which is abundant here in the NW.. althogh not as cheap but less expensive than natural gas. I also have a wood stove that I use to keep the bills down. I think wood smoke is a bit less polluting than is Oil smoke at least the smell of burning alder or maple is far more pleasant.
The house is very well insulated and I replaced some of the windows with more efficient models.
I dont have air conditioning...its WASHINGTON... there are maybe 5 days a year where AC would be called for.
I did buy a new fridge... just last year.
The house is from 1985 and is relatively new and the electrical system does not have leaks to ground all outlets have been checked for continuity.. as has the garage.
My thermostat stays set at 65 degrees year round.. and since I dont have AC.... it stays off all summer.
I grow a certain amount of my own food in my garden and have numerous fruit trees and also do it organically. I share quite a bit from the garden with freinds and relatives. I also eat quite a bit of seafood.. salmon halibut and other fish from the ocean... not ranch grown which is very polluting. I also share quite a bit of the fish and seafood I catch with others.. free.......such as the nearly 100 pounds of salmon I smoked at the DZ in the last few weeks and shared with the people I jump with.
I do think globally and very much ACT locally.
The point is some of us learned a long time ago that the environment is something we all have to live with.. I prefer mine to be a clean one... with air I can breathe. Some people dont give a shit.. and never will no matter how much they are exposed to people who do care.
Amazon
Who are we to think that we can actually drastically and perminately change the earth's global ecosystem?
I believe that Mother Nature, God, fate, who ever you believe in, doesn't give a fuck all what we do, that these minor changes to the earth doesn't bother it on a real scale.
Then again, using a "real" scale for the earth, measures time in the millions of years, not our pathetic 10s of years.
I believe that Mother Nature, God, fate, who ever you believe in, doesn't give a fuck all what we do, that these minor changes to the earth doesn't bother it on a real scale.
Then again, using a "real" scale for the earth, measures time in the millions of years, not our pathetic 10s of years.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
QuoteWho are we to think that we can actually drastically and perminately change the earth's global ecosystem?
I believe that Mother Nature, God, fate, who ever you believe in, doesn't give a fuck all what we do, that these minor changes to the earth doesn't bother it on a real scale.
Then again, using a "real" scale for the earth, measures time in the millions of years, not our pathetic 10s of years.
My point exactly. Conserving energy, recycling, cutting back or stopping pollution--all temporary comfort fixes. I don't think that anything we do, though, is going to cause global warming. If global warming is really something to worry about, then it's an issue regardless of how well we maintain the planet. Humans can only do so much, and it's great to be conscious of how you're affecting the environment for the comfort of your neighbor. But it's not going to solve any problems that the earth can't pull itself out of. After all, the earth survived a LONG time without humans; it can continue to rebuild and replinish itself.
*****************************************
Blondes do have more fun!
QuoteWell, we are fucking up the environment to that extent because The AlGore wants to be president.
Naturally, Al Gore's decision not to run for president in 2004 was a strategic decision based on the well-known principle that people typically get elected to offices for which they do not run.
QuoteHe needs a job, or a life, or something I dont know what until he gets his brain transplanted.
This reminds me of my elementary psychology lecture when we learned about projection.
A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All
Galen 0
QuoteQuoteWho are we to think that we can actually drastically and perminately change the earth's global ecosystem?
I believe that Mother Nature, God, fate, who ever you believe in, doesn't give a fuck all what we do, that these minor changes to the earth doesn't bother it on a real scale.
Then again, using a "real" scale for the earth, measures time in the millions of years, not our pathetic 10s of years.
My point exactly. Conserving energy, recycling, cutting back or stopping pollution--all temporary comfort fixes. I don't think that anything we do, though, is going to cause global warming. If global warming is really something to worry about, then it's an issue regardless of how well we maintain the planet. Humans can only do so much, and it's great to be conscious of how you're affecting the environment for the comfort of your neighbor. But it's not going to solve any problems that the earth can't pull itself out of. After all, the earth survived a LONG time without humans; it can continue to rebuild and replinish itself.
I think there's more to all of that than just global warming. There's air quality and water quality and conservation of natural resources. Sure the immediate changes in climate may be insignificant compared to global change over the eons. The Earth can clean itself but it only has so much capacity. Now, excuse me while I go for a ride in my SUV.
Respect the Dolphin
I agree. I worked on a couple of landfill cases, which changed my mind dramatically about the virtual Chernobyl's created by enviromentally friendly practices.
I concluded that "environmentally friendly" practices are more harmful than "non-environmentally sound" practices.
Examples? "Bio-degradable." Bio-degradables help make most civic landfills toxic nightmares by creating leachates, methane (did someone say "methane?" Yes, methane. More than a cow pasture causes), pcv's and other grotesqueries that plastic doesn't cause.
Another example? "Save a tree." Asking someone to save a tree by not using as much paper is like telling people to "save a stalk" by not eating corn. Paper trees are farmed the same way.
"Use paper cups instead of polystyrene." In addition to the previously described dread of biodegradables, paper cups require a whole lot more energy and water to produce. Use paper instead of plastic? Better build a few more coal-fired or nuclear power plants, and better drive that water away. Why Paper Cups are not Enviromentally Friendly
Conservation of finite resources? The free market takes care of that. As resources grow less available, we become more efficient in our use of them, making them more available. Environmentalist Paul Ehrlich famously lost a bet regarding this very concept. Why Paul Ehrlich Sent Julian Simon a Check for $576.07
Environmentalism is superificially inuitive in many ways. It just makes sense to most on basic inspection. But really putting thought into it and seeing the results leads to different conclusions.
Think about the damage you can cause to the environment by trying to save it.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
I concluded that "environmentally friendly" practices are more harmful than "non-environmentally sound" practices.
Examples? "Bio-degradable." Bio-degradables help make most civic landfills toxic nightmares by creating leachates, methane (did someone say "methane?" Yes, methane. More than a cow pasture causes), pcv's and other grotesqueries that plastic doesn't cause.
Another example? "Save a tree." Asking someone to save a tree by not using as much paper is like telling people to "save a stalk" by not eating corn. Paper trees are farmed the same way.
"Use paper cups instead of polystyrene." In addition to the previously described dread of biodegradables, paper cups require a whole lot more energy and water to produce. Use paper instead of plastic? Better build a few more coal-fired or nuclear power plants, and better drive that water away. Why Paper Cups are not Enviromentally Friendly
Conservation of finite resources? The free market takes care of that. As resources grow less available, we become more efficient in our use of them, making them more available. Environmentalist Paul Ehrlich famously lost a bet regarding this very concept. Why Paul Ehrlich Sent Julian Simon a Check for $576.07
Environmentalism is superificially inuitive in many ways. It just makes sense to most on basic inspection. But really putting thought into it and seeing the results leads to different conclusions.
Think about the damage you can cause to the environment by trying to save it.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
I am a meteorologist, and let me say that this "GLOBAL WARMING" this is just a NEWS Story!!!!!
In 1972 we were worried about global cooling... what happened? It is called global trending Most cycles of the earth (hot vs cold spells & Wet vs Dry spells) Come in 20 to 50 year cycles. Meteorologist have not had the time or technology to study this for very long.
Recently it was discovered we are currently in the "TAIL END OF AN ICE AGE"
No shit it is going to get warmer... we aren't going into another ice age right now, we are coming out of one. The impact that man has on the atmosphere is quite minimal in comparison to what diatom in the ocean do, or what even one volcanic erruption can do... this is all media, and greenpeace hype!!!
Chris
Atmosheric Physisist/Meteorologist for MIT
-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty
In 1972 we were worried about global cooling... what happened? It is called global trending Most cycles of the earth (hot vs cold spells & Wet vs Dry spells) Come in 20 to 50 year cycles. Meteorologist have not had the time or technology to study this for very long.
Recently it was discovered we are currently in the "TAIL END OF AN ICE AGE"
No shit it is going to get warmer... we aren't going into another ice age right now, we are coming out of one. The impact that man has on the atmosphere is quite minimal in comparison to what diatom in the ocean do, or what even one volcanic erruption can do... this is all media, and greenpeace hype!!!
Chris
Atmosheric Physisist/Meteorologist for MIT
-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty
Remster 24
QuoteThen again, using a "real" scale for the earth, measures time in the millions of years, not our pathetic 10s of years.
You are of course right, what we do, have done, or will do wont affect the earth in its geological time scale. Problem is, it affects it on our human time scale, and its the one we should be worried about.
Soon (geologicaly speaking) the earth will be baren of all complex animal life with only bacterias and the like roaming free on it. Us complex animal have only been around for a fraction of earth's living history, and we're not gonna stick around for much longer regardless of what we do (the Sun will change).
But I would rather that our tiem on earth be a little more pleasant then what it could on the short geological term if we keep on being assholes about pollution.
Remster
rehmwa 2
Exactly. Check Lawrocket's post - Anyone know how much more harm we do washing cloth diapers or using a sanitation service vs just using disposables?
People can do what they want to make themselves feel better. I'm only worried about the nuts that want to force their point on everyone else.
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
People can do what they want to make themselves feel better. I'm only worried about the nuts that want to force their point on everyone else.
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
I'd rather my time here be a lot more pleasant, too. That's why I choose not to be an asshole about pollution by doing it such detriment as many others.
Composting? I can't think of a better way to manufacture methane, #2 on the greenhouse gas list behind water vapor. I don't compost. I'd rather send it to the landfill where the technology is there to minimize the methan and toxic leachate the grass clippings create.
Recycling? Somethings gotta be done about that toxic sludge that comes from it. Since NIMBYism is such a common thing, most people prefer to let Flipper deal with it. But, since the system is set up, I'll use it.
Only eat organically grown foods? Unless you grow the standard fruits and veggies yourselves, store bought organics are virtual genetic Chernobyls. The only way to keep bugs from eating the veggies is to make them so toxic that the bugs won't go near them. Make natural pesticides that won't wash off instead of the chemical type. And for anyone who prefers natural irritants to chemical ones, just eat a few stalks of poison oak. It is all natural! Frankly, I'd rather kill my liver with alcohol than with celery.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
Composting? I can't think of a better way to manufacture methane, #2 on the greenhouse gas list behind water vapor. I don't compost. I'd rather send it to the landfill where the technology is there to minimize the methan and toxic leachate the grass clippings create.
Recycling? Somethings gotta be done about that toxic sludge that comes from it. Since NIMBYism is such a common thing, most people prefer to let Flipper deal with it. But, since the system is set up, I'll use it.
Only eat organically grown foods? Unless you grow the standard fruits and veggies yourselves, store bought organics are virtual genetic Chernobyls. The only way to keep bugs from eating the veggies is to make them so toxic that the bugs won't go near them. Make natural pesticides that won't wash off instead of the chemical type. And for anyone who prefers natural irritants to chemical ones, just eat a few stalks of poison oak. It is all natural! Frankly, I'd rather kill my liver with alcohol than with celery.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
billvon 2,434
>Or, we may like it.
Let me make an analogy. You are a brand new skydiver. You buy a rig. You understand how it works at a very basic level, and you understand that it will someday wear out and become dangerous to use. What is your best course of action?
-Mess with it as little as possible; maintain it well, and learn more about it before you make any big changes
-Change as much stuff on it as possible as quickly as possible
We like the environment now. We might like it more if we change it. Or the change might kill most of us. What is the best course of action? Change it as quickly as possible, or stop trying to change it as quickly as possible?
>Perhaps the environmental movement has its priorities all wrong.
Perhaps; I'm not part of the environmental movement as you define it.
>Since we dont' know what temperature the earth should be, we do
>not know whether the change will be good or bad for the earth.
Over the past 10 years or so I've watched one argument of the anti-enviromentalists evolve, and it amuses me to no end to hear them change their story to match the facts:
-There's no such thing as global warming!
-There's no significant global warming!
-Global warming isn't going to change anything.
-Well, OK, it will change things, but it will be a good thing, probably.
What's next? "Well, sure, the famines are bad and all, but cockroaches and fungus love it! It's not all bad!"
(Not that you fall into that category, but your last statement sure sounded like it.)
The risk we are taking is one that could kill millions. We do not have the right to risk other people's lives in that manner.
Let me make an analogy. You are a brand new skydiver. You buy a rig. You understand how it works at a very basic level, and you understand that it will someday wear out and become dangerous to use. What is your best course of action?
-Mess with it as little as possible; maintain it well, and learn more about it before you make any big changes
-Change as much stuff on it as possible as quickly as possible
We like the environment now. We might like it more if we change it. Or the change might kill most of us. What is the best course of action? Change it as quickly as possible, or stop trying to change it as quickly as possible?
>Perhaps the environmental movement has its priorities all wrong.
Perhaps; I'm not part of the environmental movement as you define it.
>Since we dont' know what temperature the earth should be, we do
>not know whether the change will be good or bad for the earth.
Over the past 10 years or so I've watched one argument of the anti-enviromentalists evolve, and it amuses me to no end to hear them change their story to match the facts:
-There's no such thing as global warming!
-There's no significant global warming!
-Global warming isn't going to change anything.
-Well, OK, it will change things, but it will be a good thing, probably.
What's next? "Well, sure, the famines are bad and all, but cockroaches and fungus love it! It's not all bad!"
(Not that you fall into that category, but your last statement sure sounded like it.)
The risk we are taking is one that could kill millions. We do not have the right to risk other people's lives in that manner.
What temperature should the earth be?
We all know that they had grapevines in Greenland in the middle ages. Then it got too cold.
We all know that we had glaciers in California in the Ice Age. THat's why there is the Half Dome. Then the glaciers melted because it got too warm.
Which was the correct temperature? Was neither correct?
Was the earth as it should be when the Ice Age was around? Or was the earth at it's correct temperature during the warmth of the dinosaur era, when tall lizards could sun themselves in the highest nothern latitudes?
I'll make a guess that the average temperature on earth should be 62.2 degrees. That's why I think the earth was designed to be. And my guess is as good as anybody's.
My guess is as good as anybody's because the questions cannot be answered legitimately.
Please, someone try to answer the question, and then state why their answer is correct. Obviously, not even the earth knows what it wants.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
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