aneblett 0 #51 May 15, 2003 That is what drew me into these movies in the first place. The more you watched it and thought about what was there, the more you saw/learned. But at the same time if you just wanted to do the standard and just watch the moving pictures on the screen, it was a movie for you too.. AgeS.E.X. party #2 ..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #52 May 15, 2003 As usuall Bill, you are right on the mark...now do a search on what Mr. It feels like silk....means. :)_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #53 May 16, 2003 Quote Morpheus is god the father ("he's like a father to us") Neo is Jesus (" You're my savior, man. My own personal Jesus Christ.") plus which of course he dies and comes back to life - and Trinity is the third part of the trinity, the holy ghost. Their ship is named after an ancient king who conquered Israel (otherwise known as Zion) and drove the people there into exile. That part is a bit backwards, but hey - if an old story works . . . Morpheus is also the greek god of dreams, which makes sense in the context. i think your close, but your miss assigning the role of God the father. Morpheus doesn’t have that level of influence although he does appear to be very powerful in the first movie. One of the interesting things is the number of levels the myth structure takes place at simultaneously. Anyone else find the overall theme to be particularly damning of the Christian patriarchal mythology? Set the universe in play to fail in exactly the way you intend? may be my particular literary bent, but i almost felt like they were a bit 'lead pipe' in some places with the religious parallels. I do think they did a nice job of pulling in enough other mythos to keep it interesting.. I see Morpheus very literarily. "the dreamer" He who opens the door & points the way for the questor. LOADS of subtle suggestions in the Architects spiel. I particularly like the themes of control and the various means of doing so. i thought it was a great film, but i really felt that some of the scenes (particularly some of the Zion background) seemed rushed and incomplete. A friend suggested they intentionally left "holes" in the main movie so that you would be forced to see/play the various spin off products to get the "whole story". Its understandable from a financial standpoint but REALLY REALLY frustrating artistically. I guess we should start a spoiler thread if were really going to pick it apart so as not to ruin it for anyone else one question that kept coming up for me. How long has the cycle been taking place?? anyone else getting the feeling that they were occuring faster and faster?? oh yeah..another possible mythological tie in..Mayan mythos believes civilization has already been destroyed 5 times and that the 6th is coming (2012 according to some readings of thier calenders) just something else i found interesting.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aneblett 0 #54 May 16, 2003 yes if we are going to pick it apart then a spoiler thread is definitely in order. When I started this I was just hoping to get general responses but I am into getting deeper... ageS.E.X. party #2 ..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #55 May 16, 2003 dude, i just got back from seeing it. it was really good. i can't wait for the next one to come out!!! later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MattM 0 #56 May 16, 2003 thought I would have seen it by now.... Matt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #57 May 16, 2003 Just saw it.. Very cool,,, But DAMN!! It leaves you hanging!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #58 May 16, 2003 QuoteJust saw it.. Very cool,,, But DAMN!! It leaves you hanging!! YA no shit man. that is the only part that pisses me off about the movie!!! later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #59 May 16, 2003 I don't think that Zion is real in the movie. I think it is a sub program or failsafe in case they have main program "the matrix" failure.. We know an Agent "Mr. Smith" made it in. That means it is still programming. Plus NEO with his "I can feel them comming" then WAMMO thing.. The sentinals fell to the ground.. Plus they kept digging when they got to zion? HOW DEEP DOES THE RABBIT HOLE GO?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #60 May 16, 2003 Quote HOW DEEP DOES THE RABBIT HOLE GO?? LOL. i don't know, all the suden neo is superman, and he can do all this crap, he saves the girl, when he wasn't suppose to. i mean hell, he's even like a fuckin docter now to, like magic or something. who knows, i guess we'll find out. i think the one dude is going to screw everthing all up (ya know, the guy who was cutting himself). later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #61 May 16, 2003 I really got off not only on the Christian mythology in Reloaded, but the greek mythology and eastern religious ideas. My little knowledge of Bhudism came in handy. I wish I'd known more... What I love about this movie is that on the surface it's just a great action movie. If you're looking for more then that, you just start peeling back the layers. Like an onion, every time you peel one back you find another underneath. This reminded me about how badly I've fallen behind on my reading.... _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #62 May 16, 2003 The guy that was cutting himself was the agent that went through the phone.. He also set off the EMP that killed the 5 ships when the sentinals got there.. He was the only survivor! And what about that shit Neo did at the end?? He has super powers!! He is a program that can adapt!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #63 May 16, 2003 Quotei think the one dude is going to screw everthing all up (ya know, the guy who was cutting himself). If you were paying attention, you'd KNOW that one dude is going to screw things up. This goes to rhino's point, too - once you figure out what I'm aluding too. Go back and watch it again, you'll see what you missed. A much more interesting debate is what role the annoying kid will make in the next movie: hero or idiot? Edited to add: this goes to rhinos point about xion being in the matrix, because agents are software, they can only exist inside the maxtrix. Since the agent is in xion, xion must be in the matrix.... _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aneblett 0 #64 May 16, 2003 Hey all of the movies are doing it nowadays... LOTR, Harry Potter,... at least they didn't pretend. They wrote it in big letters across the screenS.E.X. party #2 ..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aneblett 0 #65 May 16, 2003 Quotethis goes to rhinos point about xion being in the matrix, because agents are software, they can only exist inside the maxtrix. Since the agent is in xion, xion must be in the matrix.... Not necessarily... I see your point and that is one possibility.. however consider this. In the first movie we see neo learn a whole wack of skills through the neural interface. He does this in the real world. That means that there can be a certain amount of "programming" of the human mind in this manner. Who is to say that this isn't what happened to "the survivor" You will note that in Zion he isn't acting like Smith but just a crazed person as if some screws are suddenly missing. If he was actually smith then why the need to pretend to be crazy. He would mask his insanity a lot better. As for Neo having Super powers. Well this is a mystery to me but suffice to say we have seen him do some pretty crazy things in the matrix, and he had never fallen into a coma before. Perhaps him being the one in the matrix is having an effect on him in the real world. More than likely though the Zion that they are attempting to save is a subprogram though. I just thought that I would throw the above out for discussion . AgeS.E.X. party #2 ..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #66 May 16, 2003 It also feeds into the whole "machines and humans are intertwined" theme. I don't think Zion is a subprogram. What I think will happen is Zion and the matrix will both be destroyed and Neo will die. I think that Neo and Trinity concieved, and Trinity and her child will be among the few survivors. The human race gets a chance to start again through the crucifixion of their own personal Jesus Christ. Oh, and Bill, watch the second part of the trilogy. The Nebuchadnezzar fits in after the end. This is definitely a cult cyberpunk classic in the making. Look out Blade Runner. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #67 May 16, 2003 Quotexion must be in the matrix.... That would explain how Neo did what he did w/ the Sentinals...--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ThighMan 5 #68 May 16, 2003 Here is a kicker, remember the first one when Neo was woken after his little visit from Mr. Smith. What happens when he is "AWOKEN" again after the little thing in ZION?.... Are we really awake.Airborne Blue Skies, No Wind Feet and Knees Together Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #69 May 16, 2003 Spoiler talk Seen the movie twice now - and playing the game as well. Have a few thoughts on it - more may come as I think about it. And what about the kiss? Don't suppose the lipstick was a program do ya? Hmmm...maybe that allowed the one to use his powers in Zion? I believe a big part to guessing what happens next is in the Pesephone and Merovigian story line. Read up on what those two are (I may have spelled them wrong). Persephone was married to Hades and trapped in the uderworld and was ofter overshadowed by her mother and was the daugher of Zues. Merovigian may be a descendant or an offshot of one of the original "One's" - or for some reason he is directly connected to the one is some manner (I've survived all your predecessors). But all he wants is more power now, much like the Oracle mentioned. Persephone, trapped in this hell of a crashing/rebuilding Matrix finally wants it to end, and sees the love between Neo/Trinity and it reminds her of the love she once knew. Merovigian - couple things there - a group of kings over an area that eventually became France. Also - they were an order tasked with protecting the Holy Grail who's lineage comes from the Templar Knights. Also, they were believed to have magical powers and be of direct lineage of Jesus (divine orgin? related to the One?). Also, some stories of them all thru history and in Atlantis. Check this out http://www.21stcenturyradio.com/merovingian-twyman.htm Anyone notice Morpheous talk about dreams towards the end of the movie? Seraph - was guarding the Oracle. Seraphines are of the highest order of angels. Why would the Oracle have many enemies? Why would the agents try to kill Neo if they need him to get to the source? What exactly does Smith want now? He is a free agent now (pun?) with his own agenda that works against what the matrix wants. But what is it that he wants - he talks about purpose, but never gets further than that. My guess - the full destruction of humanity so he has the matrix to himself. Neo isn't a savior, he is a puppet. 99% of people will allow the illusion of choice to keep them in the matrix, but there is that one percent that can't - so the machines have built in there own backup plan and recycle bin. They created Zion as a recycle bin to get rid of those that can't accept. Zion is most likely fake as well. Intersting that the architect says that he needs to choose 23 to rebuild Zion, not the Matrix. Why is that? Why does the architect want to diseminate the code and redistrubute it into the matrix and zion? Did anyone else catch the huge amount of foreshadow in the engineer section? Yea, lots of talk about control and destruction - but more of a realization that a balance between both sides is needed. The oracle has her eye on the future, and also made mention that she wants both sides to work together._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #70 May 16, 2003 QuoteAnd what about that shit Neo did at the end?? He has super powers!! He is a program that can adapt!! or its human evolution, caused by the continual exposure to an stressful, alien enviroment (the Matrix) over hundreds (thousands?) of years.. much of the Architect's spiel implied that this has been going on for a while and based on some other comments i wonder if it was taking a shorter and shorter time for the One to appear? or perhaps being 'in' the source gave neo some measure of the same power the Architect has the choice then becomes how does he use it? start the cycle anew or rebel against creation? Merovigian certainly has "satanic" roots, reflected in his obvious role as lord of the matrix underworld and Persephone as a wife. Smith? the matrix is a simulation, a program that exists in human consciousness, Smith has discovered he can overwrite the human consciousness and some part of that rewrite carries over into the real world. Ive been wondering why/if the humans ‘occupied’ by the agents would die if they died in the matrix? If their mind did not experience death why would the body die? Do they reoccur in another place? Or is that a enforced control method by the machines? But then why sacrifice a battery? On a related note, why do the agents need human consciousness in the first place? Is it an intentional limitation of their program to keep then from becoming “exiles”?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #71 May 17, 2003 Quotexion must be in the matrix.... Or a backdoor maybe? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #72 May 23, 2003 GRRRRR.. i was talking to a friend last night and found out that they ran the preview for Matrix Revolution AFTER the credits!!!!! of course i saw the late show and had to catch an early flight to the middle of nowhere so i bailed right away.... grrrrrrrrrrrrrr____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aneblett 0 #73 May 23, 2003 Don't feel bad... I watched the movie twice knowing the trailer was there and forgot to watch it. I finally went into the theatre last night around 12:30 and sneeked into catch the end of the show so that I could see the trailer. It is only a teaser so don't be disappointed.... ageS.E.X. party #2 ..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingILweenie 0 #74 May 23, 2003 after seeing the trailer i have the very early theory that agent smith takes over the matrix by dupicating himself over and over and over again (like in the teaser, the part where he and neo face off in the rain with the street lined with hundreds of him) and they have to fight so that he doesnt take over and kill everyone still plugged in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #75 May 23, 2003 >or perhaps being 'in' the source gave neo some measure of the > same power the Architect has the choice then becomes how does he > use it? start the cycle anew or rebel against creation? Or do something else. Essentially become the architect and remake the matrix in his own way; tell people the truth, give them the option to leave etc. Would play into the christianity aspect (i.e. "Jesus will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead" at the end of the world) >If their mind did not experience death why would the body die? Hmm. If an agent takes over a human, does the human die anyway when the agent leaves, because his mind has been 'overwritten'? I haven't seen any cases where the human survived the experience. Perhaps they die unless there's a 'surrogate' mind there (like the agent's.) >On a related note, why do the agents need human consciousness in > the first place? Presumably because only someone with consciousness can understand (and outwit) a human. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
