tsalnukt 1 #1 July 17, 2003 Has this happened to anybody else? I work at Skydive New England. We are located 20.5 nautical miles from Kennebunkport. As everyone probably knows, President Bush has a "residence" there. Everytime he decides to take a vacation to go fishing or whatever it is that he does there, they (secret service/FAA) impose a 30 mile no fly zone radius around kennebunkport, and we get completely shut down. No flying, and especially no jumping. This happened last year in August and he didn't even show up and we were never notified that he wasn't coming. One weekend (4 days) of no work. Again, this year, Bush wants to spend father's day with dear old dad and we get shut down thursday to monday. Now we are being told that he is coming for a weeks vacation in August. In case y'all don't know we only have 6 months of jumping here and with all the rain and bad weather we have had so far we need everyday that we can get. So far this year, our idiot in charge will be single handedly responsible for almost 2 weeks of lost revenue for a company that only get's to operate, maybe, 6months. Has any other dropzone's ever been affected by anything like this????????? Does anyone have any ideas about something that we could do to help remedy this problem? are we going to have to drop everything that we are doing whenever the head moron wants to go on vacationfor the next year and a half and maybe the next 4 years after that. We are not the only people affected by this. Fishing operations that operate from kennebunk have to go far away and a lot of flight schools around here have to jump through hoops just to do student flying. They don't even give us any notice as to the exact time that he is coming so that we can have adequate time to reschedule tandems and students. Any help that anyone out there can offer will be much appreciated and hopefully we can keep this from affecting other DZ's in the future. Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueEyedMonster 0 #2 July 17, 2003 I talked to a friend that Jumps at Perris, and he has been shut down by the pres. too whenever he flies in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tsalnukt 1 #3 July 17, 2003 How often does this happen to them? I just think that it is bullshit. With Radar and radios nad all kinds of other stuff they have to watch all the air traffic how can they be afraid of an airplane that flies around in circles all day? What is it that they fear? How much further will it go????? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #4 July 17, 2003 It's called Security and is extended to every President, whether you like them or not. Considering the dangerous climate we all live in now, it is much more necessary. Sorry if that interferes with your skydiving. Why not try to come out to Jumptown during the days your dz is shut down. Talk to folks at Skydive Space Center in Titusville, Fl. They get shut down often due to activities at Kennedy Space Center. Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #5 July 17, 2003 The AOPA and EAA are working hard on this issue. So far the best they're able to do is warn pilots of where the presidential temporary flight restriction area is and where its moving to (which was a huge step. Previously these presidential TFRs would pop up with no warning.). 30 miles is just a ridiculously large area. The TFR covers ~2826 square nautical miles. Something like a dropzone should at the very least be able to get a waiver. I mean, there is already a 5 mile radius prohibited (or is it restricted?) area around Kennebunkport. 30 miles is just insanity. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueEyedMonster 0 #6 July 17, 2003 Quote30 miles is just a ridiculously large area. Actually its not. An armed, fast aircraft could close that distance quickly to attack AirForce1. That is why the grounding occurs. The fighter escorts (and I'm sure accompanying AWACS) need a little bit of space to differentiate friend from foe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #7 July 17, 2003 There is a good reason why 30 miles is in place. For one you have to think about the size of the A/C and the escort A/C it has with it. Then there has to be a buffer zone otherwise people WOULD be getting shot out of the sky left and right. Bottom line is it's in the intrest of National security and they could make it 100 miles if they so choose. I can tell you right now, this is a fight you will not win no matter who you know or write letters to and so on. You would be falling on your own sword and probably flag your self to the FBI's presidential watch list, not a good thing."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tsalnukt 1 #8 July 17, 2003 If it was just me not being able to jump I probably would. But we have students, and tandems. This is what makes the dropzone money, as much as that is. It pays for manifest to stay open and answer phones so that we can get more students so that we can make money. This means either moving our entire student operation and or rescheduling. rescheduling groups of people isn't always the easiest thing to do especially toward the end of summer when people are all getting ready to go back to school. Damn right I'm bitching about this stuff, but I'm also looking for help in finding a solution. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #9 July 17, 2003 I understand your economical woes. Unfortunately, your dz is close to not only the current President's family residence, but also a former president. This country paid a huge price as a result of 9/11, unfortunately your dz is one of the victims. But as far as the sacrifice the victims of 9/11 are paying, I would say your sacrifice is pretty low down the list. Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tsalnukt 1 #10 July 17, 2003 What bout waivers???? If they are aware that a twin otter will be climbing around in a circle staying within an area so designated by whoever, making the appropriate radio calls and squawking whatever code we are assigned for the day, what threat are we posing? We are just trying to make a living. Am I the only one that thinks that there has got to be a solution??? I can totally understand if there was a big meetin of world leaders going on, but it's not. This guy that somebody decided should be president wants to put his feet up and do some fishing. Maybe he should come out here and jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tsalnukt 1 #11 July 17, 2003 Let's not get into the victims of 9/11. I was directly affected by the events of 9/11. I lost a family member as well as friends. Eventually the gov't needs to stop the paranoya and think. I guess it doesn't really matter to them b/c we really aren't the people that elect them, are we. What if it was your DZ that got shut down for 4 days again and again. What if you couldn't work on a busy weekend. You just lost out on 30 or 40 jumps. Do you mean to tell me that the people here just lay down and let whatever is going to happen, happen? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #12 July 17, 2003 I disagree that all part 91 flights must be grounded completely within the 30 miles. Why can I fly 15 NM from the whitehouse? Hell, I even have my secret pin number to fly within the 15 NM flight restriction zone around DC. I agree that a FAST, armed plane could be dangerous. But a twin otter or 182 is not fast nor armed. Give them a waiver. Even if they have to file a flight plan and get a clearance for every single load, it's better than not being able to fly at all. Anyway, this IS a fight we will win. This 30 mile ring around the president is a new (post 9/11) thing. Slowly things have been getting better (as far as flight restrictions go). They'll keep getting better till the next war starts. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #13 July 17, 2003 Clinton used to shut down entire military bases in Washington just to play golf. He cheats at golf too. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueEyedMonster 0 #14 July 17, 2003 QuoteI disagree that all part 91 flights must be grounded completely within the 30 miles. Why can I fly 15 NM from the whitehouse? The whitehouse has intrenched defenses. AirForce one and all of its defenses have a big issue: Gravity. QuoteThey'll keep getting better till the next war starts. Give Bush a month or two we will have a new war... Better wait for a new administration. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #15 July 17, 2003 Dude, I totaly sympathize with you on this but it's a no win situation. It doesn't make much sense to have a security perimiter set up and allow people into it,it's kind of self defeating. Sorry to say this but there is no solution, National Security over rides everything, especially in the matters of the President."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #16 July 17, 2003 Sorry about your losses on 9/11. I too lost 2 acquaintances in the towers. Just look at this way, GWB will be out of office on 1/20/09. So you only have 5 1/2 more years to worry about. Unless Jeb is elected in 2008? Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #17 July 17, 2003 Air force one has way better defense than the whitehouse. It can move! Seriously, hitting a 747 in flight would be a hell of a lot harder than hitting a bigass building, missiles or not. Airliners are not grounded. Do you trust every airline pilot more than you trust your jump pilot? I've been through fingerprinting by the FBI and a background check by the secret service to allow me to fly within 15 NM of DC. Why can't I fly in Maine? I understand security. The problem is not the NEED for security, it's the IMPLEMENTATION. I believe that there are more important things in the world than the safety of the president. And so does the TSA. Thats why airliners are flying in maine and within a couple miles of the whitehouse at national airport. Sure, if there is a real threat to the president's life coming from the air (which I don't believe is true), protect him. But do it right, in a way that makes any sense. A 2830 NM^2 (thats over 3700 square miles, by the way) DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. That's larger than Delaware. It's almost as big as Delaware and Rhode Island combined. Dave Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tsalnukt 1 #18 July 17, 2003 It's only a no win situation if we don't try. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #19 July 17, 2003 QuoteDude, I totaly sympathize with you on this but it's a no win situation. It doesn't make much sense to have a security perimiter set up and allow people into it,it's kind of self defeating. 9/11 was an attack using airliners. They are the only ones still allowed to fly in that area. There is no need for an impenetrable security perimeter in my opinon. What is an ultralight going to do? How about an ultralight being flown by Joe Lieberman? Do you really think he's going to try to kill the president with his ultralight? So why not let him go flying? What harm is there? (No, he doesnt really fly ultralights...just making a point). If they know WHO is up there flying, and they know those people are not dangerous, why stop them? Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tsalnukt 1 #20 July 17, 2003 Implementation is the key. We pay these people way more than they are worth. And it seems that they just want to take the easy road to all solutions. They are supposedly smart and intelligent. It might take a bit of work, but if they put their heads together they could make it good for everybody. If GWB is going to continue to vacation than they need to come up with a solution that doesn't affect people so often so harshly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #21 July 17, 2003 Mike, Sorry to hear that about that dz. What about USPA, can it get involved? Blue ones and hope you guys get up and running again."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,427 #22 July 17, 2003 >An armed, fast aircraft could close that distance quickly to attack AirForce1. And an AMRAAM launched from that armed, fast aircraft outside that 30 mile radius could down Air Force 1 in under 45 seconds. The 30 mile radius, like most nice round numbers, is a SWAG. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #23 July 17, 2003 A change in administration will not make this go away so the whole bush bash thing is off base and flawed. The restriction might ease up but it will not go away. National shut down for a good while after 9/11, which coincidentially is the reason the restricted area got bigger but it has always been in effect when a presidential A/C was airborne. Those flying into National on commercial A/C must now be seated and remain seated for 30 mins prior to landing and after take off or the A/C will divert and declare an emergency and the men in black jackets will meet you at the concourse door when the plane lands. IMO, the only reason National opened back up again was due to pressure from the airline industry and the simple fact that it would in turn shut a good part of DC airtravel down. As it is, fligths are limited into National and services have been scaled back to include rental cars on hand. I was on a facility tour/security assesment with the head of security at national after 9/11 and have seen just about every part of that facility. It is a very hard facility to protect effectively. Believe it or not, like it or not, there is nothing more important than the President( no matter which party) when it comes to National Security. thats just a cold hard fact that will never change. Thats just the way it has to be if we wish to continue to be the most powerful country on the planet. I am just a one eyed man in the world of the blind trying to describe what I see, sorry if it does not agree with you."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #24 July 17, 2003 But don't you know that the biggest threat to the pres is air to air combat between Airforce 1 and a Cessna? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #25 July 17, 2003 Sorry guys... USPA can't help you here. I have been at NY TRACON, and NY CENTER during many of these presidential "trips" . This much I can tell you. The FAA will not let up on this one. And, don't even try to take off. The 4 F-16's will be on you like flies on shit. There are exceptions to the rule, but there is no way it will be a jumpship that is let through. There is talk in the FAA though to drop those resrictions to 20nmi. We will just have to wait and see. Chris ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
