Maksimsf 0 #1 November 27, 2011 Hey guys, I was on the phone with Eastern European rig manufacturer and I've been told that I can jump their equipment only as non-resident - their rig is not FAA certified or something, does it mean that my local rigger will refuse to work with my rig (container only). Manufacturer is in Ukraine: http://www.swsrigs.com I know most of you will probably say that you got what you paid for, but me and my buddy got RW suits from skylark for $200 custom made and I don't see any difference material and craftsmanship wise. I'm a big guy and need my rig custom made, it will cost me ~$1000 compared to $3000+ US made rigs. Any thoughts? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #2 November 27, 2011 Are you a US citizen or resident? Or are you a visitor or tourist? Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,351 #3 November 27, 2011 It has nothing to do with a rigger working on it. It means that you (as a US resident) aren't legally allowed to jump it in the US. Search "TSO" for more info, look in FAR part 105 for info too. Short version - US rigs need to pass FAA certification (That's the "TSO" thingy) to be legal to jump in the US. It's a long, involved (read: expensive) process. Foreign citizens who aren't residents of the US can jump their equipment in the US if it meets the requirement of their home country. But you can't. Edit to add the part about non-resident non-citizens. resident aliens need to jump TSO'd gear."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #4 November 28, 2011 Quote I'm a big guy and need my rig custom made, it will cost me ~$1000 compared to $3000+ US made rigs. Any thoughts? You don't need to spend $3000 to have a US-built rig which fits. You can get a used container and have the harness resized by the manufacturer with $400 being a reasonable ball park (call with the serial number before you buy and get an exact quote). You can buy a rig from a company which hasn't jacked up their prices because popularity (being in business for a long time, team sponsorships, boogie presence, etc.) and military contracts let them. For instance, new Wings start at $1350 from Square One. Delivery time and customer service can be better that way too. Some large old companies also have no-frills options to get market share at lower price points (and perhaps brand loyalty) without cannibalizing their flagship product sales like the any-color-you-want-as-long-as-its-black Shadow Racer at $1425 via Square One or Rigging Innovations Genera. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #5 November 28, 2011 American citizens must follow United States federal air Regulations, which include jumping parachutes manufactured under Federal Aviation Administration TSOs. Technical Standard Orders are quality and performance control systems designed to keep you alive. The good news is that FAA TSOs have been adopted by Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand, South Africa and most of the European Union. Only a handful of former Communist countries stil manufacture sport parachutes without TSO approval. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maksimsf 0 #6 November 28, 2011 Thnks guys, I will be getting Wings or Sidewinder then. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parafredo 0 #7 November 29, 2011 If you come to Canada, you are aloud to jump almost anything, even a Sorcerer BASE rig, as long as you have two parachute in your back, CSPA is very loose about the certification rules. They say ; as long parachute is certified.... go ahead. Only on demo jump you are request to jump a FAA TSO system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #8 November 29, 2011 QuoteAmerican citizens must follow United States federal air Regulations... No hablo ingles, Señor! Seriously, though, if a jumper shows up with a foreign rig, is a drop zone going to ask them to prove that they're not an American citizen? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #9 November 29, 2011 Let be realistic at many dropzones the gear check is a joke! If you show them a typical packing data card that is in date they wouldn't even notice that it was a foreign rig."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #10 November 29, 2011 True. And then, you need a repack. How many riggers would pack a rig that they know is of a local jumper that is not TSO'ed?Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #11 November 29, 2011 QuoteTrue. And then, you need a repack. How many riggers would pack a rig that they know is of a local jumper that is not TSO'ed? what's illegal about packing non-TSO'd gear ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,351 #12 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteTrue. And then, you need a repack. How many riggers would pack a rig that they know is of a local jumper that is not TSO'ed? what's illegal about packing non-TSO'd gear ? Nothing that I know of. But while I would pack it (presuming I could find a proper manual and was comfortable doing it), I would also probably let my DZ know that the rig wasn't legal. It's the DZ that I jump at and I don't want anyone getting them into trouble."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #13 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteTrue. And then, you need a repack. How many riggers would pack a rig that they know is of a local jumper that is not TSO'ed? what's illegal about packing non-TSO'd gear ? Nothing that I know of. But while I would pack it (presuming I could find a proper manual and was comfortable doing it), I would also probably let my DZ know that the rig wasn't legal. It's the DZ that I jump at and I don't want anyone getting them into trouble. surely by calling gear legal or illegal you mean to say TSO'd and non TSO'd I have had a number of containers without TSO stamps come through with US rigger signatures. All the users were foreign nationals and as far as my understanding goes there was nothing illegal about them jumping the said gear in the US. So in short, if one is a just a visitor to the US (not a resident or a citizen) then it should be legal for them to jump non TSO'd gear. BUT - any DZO/Pilot/Rigger may have issues with such gear, although that's (hopefully) not too common. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #14 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteTrue. And then, you need a repack. How many riggers would pack a rig that they know is of a local jumper that is not TSO'ed? what's illegal about packing non-TSO'd gear ? I never said anything was illegal. But you did seem to miss the part in bold this time.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #15 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteTrue. And then, you need a repack. How many riggers would pack a rig that they know is of a local jumper that is not TSO'ed? what's illegal about packing non-TSO'd gear ? I never said anything was illegal. But you did seem to miss the part in bold this time. I apologize. You raised a question and I creatively inferred. I guess my answer is that I know of many riggers (myself included) who would pack a a non-TSO'ed rig (and I mean foreign made, as the US Military gear has no TSO, yet is legal to use as well). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #16 November 29, 2011 Quoteas the US Military gear has no TSO. Sorry to knit pick but that is not an entirely true statement. While some of the older systems may not be and some of the rounds are not, you will find most modern military RAM air systems are now TSO C23d. The bigger question here for everyone to consider is that do "you" as either a rigger or a owner/user want to jeopardize the DZ/owner/pilot with the potential of incurring fines if you are discovered to be in violation by the FAA because you (being a US citizen) are using a non approved system? Yes, one could probably get away with it and no one would be the wiser but at the end of the day that doesn't make it the right thing to do."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #17 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteas the US Military gear has no TSO. Sorry to knit pick but that is not an entirely true statement. While some of the older systems may not be and some of the rounds are not, you will find most modern military RAM air systems are now TSO C23d. The bigger question here for everyone to consider is that do "you" as either a rigger or a owner/user want to jeopardize the DZ/owner/pilot with the potential of incurring fines if you are discovered to be in violation by the FAA because you (being a US citizen) are using a non approved system? Yes, one could probably get away with it and no one would be the wiser but at the end of the day that doesn't make it the right thing to do. You are right, you are knit picking :). The point is that at least SOME of the US Military gear although not TSO'd is still legal - thus proving that not having a TSO doesn't automatically mean something is illegal to use. Otherwise, I agree, and the answer is NO, one should not jeopardize other people's livelihood. However, I think the debate is whether it's legal for a foreign jumper to use non TSO-d gear in the US, and a secondary question is if it's legal for an FAA rigger (residing in the US) to pack the said gear. I believe the answer is YES to both of those questions, with the first having some contingencies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #18 November 29, 2011 QuoteHowever, I think the debate is whether it's legal for a foreign jumper to use non TSO-d gear in the US, and a secondary question is if it's legal for an FAA rigger (residing in the US) to pack the said gear. I believe the answer is YES to both of those questions, with the first having some contingencies. No, the debate is about a US jumper. The OP listed his location as the US (San Francisco).Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #19 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteHowever, I think the debate is whether it's legal for a foreign jumper to use non TSO-d gear in the US, and a secondary question is if it's legal for an FAA rigger (residing in the US) to pack the said gear. I believe the answer is YES to both of those questions, with the first having some contingencies. No, the debate is about a US jumper. The OP listed his location as the US (San Francisco). It sounds like the conversation moved on from that particular person and into a general topic of non-TSO'd gear used in the US. But I could be just dreaming. Say I was a Kenyan national who moved to the USA for semester at University of California. I would probably list USA as my current location. Also FAR 105.49 states simply "foreign parachutist", which according to the light reading linked to below this post means non-citizen and non-resident alien. I guess someone currently on a student or work or travel visa should be 100% legal jumping the said gear. re : http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=2001_register&docid=01-11726-filedl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
