The journalist incident in Iraq

[BikerBabe 0]

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Well reading between the lines that reads that a US soldier's life is worth more than an Iraqi citizen prior to that mandate

urgh....I hate when I hear people say this like it's a bad thing.

You bet your arse, to General Sanchez the life of the soldiers under him are more important than the lives of Iraqis. I'd guarantee it!

Sorry honey, that's what war is about. Saddam thought his life was more important than most Iraqi citizens', and we thought every US soldier's life is more important than Saddam's.

Would you defend yourself against an attacker? If so, oops! you just made a decision that your life is more valuable than his. Shame on you.

No?

What about your kid, or your spouse (if you have one)? Are they more valuable to you than an attacker's life? Tell me they aren't, but I'd bet you'd be lying.

You make the same decision every day. Which is why the "philosophy" of moral relativism is flawed to the core.

If we asked questions first then shot, a lot more US soldiers would be dead. Sorry if this offends you, but I think that's the greater of two evils.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[nigel99 144]

Technically "returning fire" is just that. It means that somebody initiated an attack and you retaliate.

I don't expect that you sit and wait until you have been shot at before you take action - but I would not classify that as returning fire.

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You would last all of 2 minutes over there.

probably, but it does not stop me analysing what the guys are doing against other soldiers (BTW I am not a Brit, although I do use them for most comparisons).

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[nigel99 144]

Ok firstly no you don't offend me. 2nd I wasn't very clear. The in war you try and avoid civilian casualties, and I understand that it is SUPPOSSED to be that a civilians life is MORE important than a soldiers. So to G Sanchez is an Iraq soldiers life more important than one of his guys no - in fact 10000 iraqi soldiers are worth one of his. However the life of a civilian should be bloody near equal that of a US soldier in the war zone.
The US portrays an image that this is not the case in alot of circumstances, it may not be true but it appears that its shoot first think later.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[AggieDave 6]

You know what, IMHO a US Soldier's life IS more important then anyone else's over there. That's because I'm bias, I'm a die-hard, full of pride, American. Since this part of the war is being waged against people in civilian clothes, a lot of the time firing shoulder firing weapons at our troops then running away, I'm glad that one of our troops had the initative to aquire a target and take care of a possible situation. It was the journalists' fault for being there, and if it was someone who was there to do harm, then that would have been more American causalties. Especially if you want our soldiers to walk to to each of them and ask them if they're there to do harm.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Remster 24]

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Since this part of the war

Thats funny... I though you won the war, and now its more a case of peace keeping... Guess I'm wrong....

Remster

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

However, a person in civilian clothing with a weapon in time of war is not a civilian.

The soldier thought the reporter had a weapon. Therefore the reporter was NOT a civilian in his eyes at that moment. The soldier took appropriate action.

Now lets look at it this way. The soldiers are still wearing all their flack jackets and protective gear that identifies them as American Soldiers. During the beginning of the war, most members of the press were wearing protective gear with big bold "PRESS" written across the chest and back. Why did they stop? Maybe if this camera man had been wearing something like that, the mistake would not have been made? The reporters incorrectly assumed the American soldiers knew they were reporters. Communication is a 2 way street.

IN the end, nothing can be changed. It happened. They just need to learn from it. Members of the press, need to communicate clearly that they are press. And, however unintentional it was, the camerman did provoked the response that cost him his life.

[nigel99 144]

I think that journalists are idiots for dressing up in camo and running around amongst bullets for "news" back home. However if the general attitude genuinely is that a US soldiers life is worth more than a civilian then I think the US is in Iraq for a long time, as the I can quite see the Iraqi's getting severely pissed off and there being more and not less attacks.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[nigel99 144]

I agree, but where does it stop. A pineapple in a kids hand looks like a grenade so blow him away to? The Iraqi resistance isn't wearing uniform so shoot all men between 15 and 65? I will grant you this it must be bloody difficult.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Guest]

Seen dead-on, a shoulder-borne camera bears a fearful resemblance to an RPG.

In the heat and confusion of battle, there isn't time to distinguish.

Questions about the morality of the occupation itself could be applied, yet this is a mishap. A tragic one, it's true, but no soldier would intentionally shoot a non-combatant, especially a reporter. That's a war crime.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[SkyDekker 1,141]

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Thats funny... I though you won the war,

In a way they did win the war, unfortunately, they did not reach any of the objectives they set out to do prior to combat. So, guess since they haven't really accomplished much, they are still at war. But major combat operations are over, so I guess it is a minor war now.

[SkyDekker 1,141]

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but no soldier would intentionally shoot a non-combatant, especially a reporter.

Could not agree with you more Mark, yikes, did I just actually type that

Sounds like a great big tragic accident to me.

[juanesky 0]

Hey blue I second you on this too, some ppl believe again on distroting the facts, that they were in a danger area, with risking their life, with Tanks that just got to a place that was attacked 6 days before, let see, yep sure, let the brittons handle it with respect and humanity, just like they have in Ireland......

Back to u...

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[kiltboy 0]

Could you please clarify the Brits in Ireland remark?

Thanks,
David

[Guest]

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let the brittons handle it with respect and humanity, just like they have in Ireland......

Back to u...

Eeek....could we please leave "The Troubles" out of this?

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[juanesky 0]

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I agree, but where does it stop. A pineapple in a kids hand looks like a grenade so blow him away to? The Iraqi resistance isn't wearing uniform so shoot all men between 15 and 65? I will grant you this it must be bloody difficult.

No I guess the correct course of action is wait and see if it explodes?

Man, your way of thinking does not even get your own facts working 4 u.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[juanesky 0]

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Could you please clarify the Brits in Ireland remark?

Thanks,
David

Well, first of all you are a total stranger, hosts please note this....my green friends...

Second if you have not read any papers at all, see what has been the british armed response against civilians in Ireland, would you say it is appropiate?

I guess is up to you to explain this one to me.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[quade 3]

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Seen dead-on, a shoulder-borne camera bears a fearful resemblance to an RPG.

And pretty much every combat camera operator knows this. It's a risk they are generally aware of.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kiltboy 0]

I grew up in Glasgow, Scotland which people in the UK will tell you has a bit of a sectarian problem.
I grew up with the troubles everyday in the news. My mother is Catholic my father is Protestant I caught both sides of that divide.
My brother is in the British Army and he served in N.Ireland. I served in the Army Reserve and as such did armed guards in the United Kingdom under the rules of engagement for the Army in the UK.

So I know a fair bit about how the British Army is trained for handling a civilian population, I know people that have done it, and I consider myself reasonably informed about various incidents where a shooting has occured.

What incidents are you referring to with the civilians in N. Ireland? I would guess Bloody Sunday is the one you are referring to though Lee Clegg and the case of two Scots Guardsmen also come to mind.
Which ones would you care to discuss?

David

[billvon 2,426]

I agree that the whole "they're intentionally killing journalists" thing is silly. However, if we have troops over there that can't tell cameras from RPG's we have big problems. Will they mistake water jugs for bombs next? Down vests for suicide bombers? Are we going to defend our military for killing kids wearing thick jackets next? "Hey, he looked just like that suicide bomber we got here last week. What, you want us to ask them if they're suicide bombers before we shoot them?"

We are going to lose US military over there. We're averaging one a day, and it's not going to get better any time soon. That means around 600 over the next two years. We will lose more in the long run if we keep shooting people with cameras, because the clerics who call for a holy war against the murderous invaders will have all the ammunition they need to 'prove' we are there to kill Arabs. That means we can't just take the attitude "I'm going to kill any son of a bitch that points anything at anyone" - unless we're OK with losing even more than 600.

[juanesky 0]

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I grew up in Glasgow, Scotland which people in the UK will tell you has a bit of a sectarian problem.
I grew up with the troubles everyday in the news. My mother is Catholic my father is Protestant I caught both sides of that divide.
My brother is in the British Army and he served in N.Ireland. I served in the Army Reserve and as such did armed guards in the United Kingdom under the rules of engagement for the Army in the UK.

Please enlighten us with the problems in the news, and armed forces shooting and killing unarmed civilians due to the suspicion and self defense.

Take note that if my comments before did (my fault) fail to make a fair clear comparison, I think that it is great the US been backed by Britain. These comments were made in light of Nigel comments explaining that under extreme circumstances it is not difficult at all to be suspicious of civilians carrying something big in their hands, pointed at you. What does anyone trained in this situation does? Sit, reflect, wait?

Maybe he will actually understand it from you, for it seems that he is very BIASED to any US opinion that differs from his own.

So I know a fair bit about how the British Army is trained for handling a civilian population, I know people that have done it, and I consider myself reasonably informed about various incidents where a shooting has occured.

What incidents are you referring to with the civilians in N. Ireland? I would guess Bloody Sunday is the one you are referring to though Lee Clegg and the case of two Scots Guardsmen also come to mind.
Which ones would you care to discuss?

David

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[quade 3]

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Down vests for suicide bombers?

Right now the high temps are running from 112f to 120f. Accuweather.com

So, um, yeah, if somebody is wearing a down vest, he's going to draw a lot of attention. I'd definately want him isolated and have him in the sights of a sniper.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[juanesky 0]

Well Bill, If I was in Israel in a bus, and a young arab looking person tries to run inside a bus, when he or she looks like she have a bulk under the shirt, don't get me wrong, I would definitely think they are trying to bomb your ass off....

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[nigel99 144]

To be clear - the brits made mistakes in NI, and I have been trying to portray more than anything a difference of approach and greater level of experience that they have than the US. To be clear I am NOT british so its not a personal interest issue.

Bill kind of summed up in 1 paragraph what I've been trying to say.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[jtval 0]

ahhh the luxury of freedom!
you get to sit back and watch you tv's and read your papers and pick apart everyaction that is made in a hostile environment
I agree that this incident is very unfortunate but if you dont wanna die you better MAKE SURE that they know you are a reporter

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"We saw a tank, 50 meters away. I heard six shots and Mazen fell to the ground. One of the soldiers started shouting at us, but when he knew we were journalists, he softened. One of the soldiers told us they thought Mazen was carrying a rocket-propelled grenade," said Abbas.

Sounds like they didnt know until after the shots were fired that he was a reporter. intentional? no way

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"There were many journalists around. They knew we were journalists. This was not an accident," he said.

Sounds like one persons personal opinion after seeing a tragedy- of course he'll blame everything on the other person, he's angry

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"A soldier on the tank shot at us. I lay on the ground. I heard Mazen and I saw him scream and touching his chest.

"I cried at the soldier, telling him you killed a journalist. They shouted at me and asked me to step back and I said 'I will step back but please help, please help and stop the bleed.'"

again sounds as if the sodlier was trying to figure out what was going on and secure the situation!
it was a horrible accident but the reporters knew what they were in for....
anyone remember daniel pearl? I diont remember seeing such outrage abou this death.
( I may have missed it if there was. I try to stay out of these conversations online)

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[kiltboy 0]

The rules of engagement will be different as they change with circumstances, location (Scotland has some exceptions from the rest of the UK) and what you're guarding (Nuke boats or porta potties).

Under no circumstance do you shoot an individual that is not a threat. A threat can be someone shooting at you, driving a car at you with intent to kill, throwing a bomb (including petrol bombs), attempting to detonate a device or acting in such a way as to risk killing you or another individual (some of the training scenarios were weird).

No distances were quoted in the description given and I've no idea what the sight picture was like of the guy that pulled the trigger. It is likely that he felt he was about to be engaged by an RPG (particularly if the guy transitioned to one knee with the camera as that could be seen as taking up a firing position).

Winnning the hearts and minds is the goal of the people in Iraq and as such they are not about to shoot unless they feel threatened.

David