Holy war

[SkydiverRick 0]

I think that Bill Clinton has the lying to congress thing covered.

[sducoach 0]

Come on Bill. Post he whole story or just consider yourself another one of "those".

You know, partial truths, sound bites, partial quotes, spin, spin, spin.

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[kallend 1,623]

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If he sounds like he's making an official pronouncement, and he's dressed like he's making an official pronouncement, then he probably is.

He said all of that at a church on his own time. I still disagree. Next you'll be saying he can't go to church in his uniform. When i was in the army we had to go in our dress greens. It's much to do about nothing! More evidence of the slant of the press

When you were in the Army, you had also given up a number of your Constitutional rights. Generals don't get a pass on that part.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,623]

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"They are the aggressors. We are the defenders. That puts us on higher moral ground."

You need to study history my friend.
We have sold guns to both sides and watched people die to make money.
But if Money is your moral then your right, but it isn't mine

The bottom line is that they declared war on us. Remember 9/11? How about the Stark incident? You can try to muddy the water with all of the liberal tripe that you want, but it doesn't change reality.

You must be too young to remember Iran, 1953. Overthrowing a legitimate government IS an act of war. There are long memories in the middle east.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[sducoach 0]

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I don't think anyone's god would sign off on war or killing. IMO "satan" is on both sides of any war. War is a reality but lets not bullshit ourselves.

You've got to be kidding?

The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius knows it limitations, stupidity simply abounds.

James 4:8

[SkydiverRick 0]

You must be too young to remember Iran, 1953. .

[kallend 1,623]

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I think that Bill Clinton has the lying to congress thing covered.

You must be too young to remember Watergate and Iran-Contra.

[SkydiverRick 0]

Just wondering why you always pick on Clinton, when Eisenhower, Nixon, Reagan and Bush 1 all lied to Congress over far more substantive issues than a blow job. Oh yes, Clinton was a Democrat.

[kallend 1,623]

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don't confuse them with facts. The economy is up.

tell that to the unemployed, like these skydivers: www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=709409#709409

Deficit is up too, and the national debt is at record levels.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[sducoach 0]

John,

For some reason you cannot be PM'd. Where are you located?

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[kallend 1,623]

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Just wondering why you always pick on Clinton, when Eisenhower, Nixon, Reagan and Bush 1 all lied to Congress over far more substantive issues than a blow job. Oh yes, Clinton was a Democrat.

I don't always pick on Clinton. Sometimes I pick on Ted Kennedy.

[SkydiverRick 0]

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don't confuse them with facts. The economy is up.

tell that to the unemployed, like these skydivers: www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=709409#709409

Deficit is up too, and the national debt is at record levels.

Employment is a lagging indicator. While I feel bad for the recently unemployed jumpers, it doesn't say anything about the economy in general. I was laid off in a good economy (1991) due to a downturn in the business I was in.

never pull low......unless you are

[kallend 1,623]

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John,

For some reason you cannot be PM'd. Where are you located?

Blues,

J.E.

Flossmoor, IL (yes, it sounds like a dentist's request).

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SkydiverRick 0]

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Just wondering why you always pick on Clinton, when Eisenhower, Nixon, Reagan and Bush 1 all lied to Congress over far more substantive issues than a blow job. Oh yes, Clinton was a Democrat.

I don't always pick on Clinton. Sometimes I pick on Ted Kennedy.

Well, just to show I'm impartial, Kennedy and Johnson also lied to Congress. In fact, it's hard to find a recent president that didn't ... maybe Carter?

[Amazon 7]

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Not when he is speaking in an official capacity (i.e. in uniform - as a general)... then he is speaking for the governement, and must spout the party line.

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I disagree. Just because he is in uniform does not mean he is in "official capacity ". If the president went to a prayer breakfast in a suit would he have to " spout the party line."

I don't think so!

I seem to remember when I was in the military there were specific orders pertaining to public speaking... ONLY the civilian Command authority has the right to state policy. What the President and VP and Sec of State do and say is policy... Military are required to follow thelawful orders of thier commanders. And not shooting of your mouth is part of being in the uniform of this country.

Jeanne

[lawrocket 3]

Well put!

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Amazon 7]

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If he's on his own time, then he should be wearing his own clothes.

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why?
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Have you ever even BEEN in uniform?? And been out of line???

Edited.. oh wait... Army... but not a carreer officer
Jeanne

[Deuce 1]

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If he's on his own time, then he should be wearing his own clothes.

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why?
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Have you ever even BEEN in uniform??

Jeanne

Me? Yeah. I wore a cool apron and tie when I was a bartender. I had a neato camoflage outfit with lots of pockets when I went to summer camp at Quantico a long time ago...

My favorite was my boy scout uniform. It had a scarf. It's pretty hard for a guy to pull off an outfit with a scarf other than a boy scout uniform, don't you think?

[billvon 2,400]

>Post he whole story . ..

You asked for it!
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LATimes:

WASHINGTON — The Pentagon has assigned the task of tracking down and eliminating Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein and other high-profile targets to an Army general who sees the war on terrorism as a clash between Judeo-Christian values and Satan.

Lt. Gen. William G. "Jerry" Boykin, the new deputy undersecretary of Defense for intelligence, is a much-decorated and twice-wounded veteran of covert military operations. From the bloody 1993 clash with Muslim warlords in Somalia chronicled in "Black Hawk Down" and the hunt for Colombian drug czar Pablo Escobar to the ill-fated attempt to rescue American hostages in Iran in 1980, Boykin was in the thick of things.

Yet the former commander and 13-year veteran of the Army's top-secret Delta Force is also an outspoken evangelical Christian who appeared in dress uniform and polished jump boots before a religious group in Oregon in June to declare that radical Islamists hated the United States "because we're a Christian nation, because our foundation and our roots are Judeo-Christian ... and the enemy is a guy named Satan."

Discussing the battle against a Muslim warlord in Somalia, Boykin told another audience, "I knew my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol."

"We in the army of God, in the house of God, kingdom of God have been raised for such a time as this," Boykin said last year.

On at least one occasion, in Sandy, Ore., in June, Boykin said of President Bush: "He's in the White House because God put him there."

Boykin's penchant for casting the war on terrorism in religious terms appears to be at odds with Bush and an administration that have labored to insist that the war on terrorism is not a religious conflict.

Although the Army has seldom if ever taken official action against officers for outspoken expressions of religious opinion, outside experts see remarks such as Boykin's as sending exactly the wrong message to the Arab and Islamic world.

In his public remarks, Boykin has also said that radical Muslims who resort to terrorism are not representative of the Islamic faith.

He has compared Islamic extremists to "hooded Christians" who terrorized blacks, Catholics, Jews and others from beneath the robes of the Ku Klux Klan.

Boykin was not available for comment and did not respond to written questions from the Los Angeles Times submitted to him Wednesday.

"The first lesson is to recognize that whatever we say here is heard there, particularly anything perceived to be hostile to their basic religion, and they don't forget it," said Stephen P. Cohen, a member of the special panel named to study policy in the Arab and Muslim world for the U.S. Advisory Commission on Public Diplomacy.

"The phrase 'Judeo-Christian' is a big mistake. It's basically the language of Bin Laden and his supporters," said Cohen, president of the Institute for Middle East Peace and Development in New York.

"They are constantly trying to create the impression that the Jews and Christians are getting together to beat up on Islam.... We have to be very careful that this doesn't become a clash between religions, a clash of civilizations."

Boykin's religious activities were first documented in detail by William N. Arkin, a former military intelligence analyst who writes on defense issues for The Times Opinion section.

Audio and videotapes of Boykin's appearances before religious groups over the last two years were obtained exclusively by NBC News, which reported on them Wednesday night on the "Nightly News with Tom Brokaw."

Arkin writes in an article on the op-ed page of today's Times that Boykin's appointment "is a frightening blunder at a time that there is widespread acknowledgment that America's position in the Islamic world has never been worse."

Boykin's promotion to lieutenant general and his appointment as deputy undersecretary of Defense for intelligence were confirmed by the Senate by voice vote in June.

An aide to the Senate Armed Services Committee said the appointment was not examined in detail.

Yet Boykin's explicitly Christian-evangelical language in public forums may become an issue now that he holds a high-level policy position in the Pentagon.

Officials at his level are often called upon to testify before Congress and appear in public forums.

Boykin's new job makes his role especially sensitive: He is charged with speeding up the flow of intelligence on terrorist leaders to combat teams in the field so that they can attack top-ranking terrorist leaders.

Since virtually all these leaders are Muslim, Boykin's words and actions are likely to draw special scrutiny in the Arab and Islamic world.

Bush, a born-again Christian, often uses religious language in his speeches, but he keeps references to God nonsectarian.

At one point, immediately after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, the president said he wanted to lead a "crusade" against terrorism.

But he quickly retracted the word when told that, to Muslim ears, it recalled the medieval Christian crusaders' brutal invasions of Islamic nations.

In that context, Boykin's reference to the God of Islam as "an idol" may be perceived as particularly inflammatory.

The president has made a point of praising Islam as "a religion of peace." He has invited Muslim clerics to the White House for Ramadan dinners and has criticized evangelicals who called Islam a dangerous faith.

The issue is still a sore spot in the Muslim world.

Pollster John Zogby says that public opinion surveys throughout the Arab and Islamic world show strong negative reactions to any statement by a U.S. official that suggests a conflict between religions or cultures.

"To frame things in terms of good and evil, with the United States as good, is a nonstarter," Zogby said.

"It is exactly the wrong thing to do."

For the Army, the issue of officers expressing religious opinions publicly has been a sensitive problem for many years, according to a former head of the Army Judge Advocate General's office who is now retired but continues to serve in government as a civilian.

"The Army has struggled with this issue over the years. It gets really, really touchy because what you're talking about is freedom of expression," he said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

"What usually happens is that somebody has a quiet chat with the person," the retired general said.

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From CNN:

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff are defending a new deputy undersecretary of defense "who has reportedly cast the war on terror" in religious terms.

Lt. Gen. William G. Boykin, whose promotion and appointment was confirmed by the Senate in June, has said publicly that he sees the war on terrorism as a clash between Judeo-Christian values and Satan, the Los Angeles Times reported Thursday.

Appearing in dress uniform before a religious group in Oregon in June, Boykin said Islamic extremists hate the United States "because we're a Christian nation, because our foundation and our roots are Judeo-Christians. ... And the enemy is a guy named Satan."

In its report, the Times said Boykin was not available for comment and did not respond to written questions the newspaper submitted to him Wednesday. Audio and video tapes of Boykin's public appearances before religious groups over the past two years were obtained exclusively by NBC News, which reported on them Wednesday night on the "Nightly News" with Tom Brokaw.

Discussing a U.S. Army battle against a Muslim warlord in Somalia in 1993, Boykin told one audience, "I knew my god was bigger than his. I knew that my god was a real god and his was an idol."

Asked about this Thursday, Rumsfeld told reporters he had not seen the videos and did not know the "full context" of Boykin's remarks. But the secretary did say, "We do know that he is an officer that has an outstanding record in the United States armed forces."

President Bush has often said the view of the administration is that the United States is in a war against terrorism, "not a war against a religion," Rumsfeld said, but rather a war against people who "have tried to hijack a religion."

"There are a lot of things that are said by people that are their views," he said, "and that's the way we live. We are free people and that's the wonderful thing about our country, and I think for anyone to run around and think that can be managed or controlled is probably wrong."

Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said "there is a very wide gray area on what the rules permit" but that "at first blush, it doesn't look like any rules were broken."

Senators who appeared before reporters at the Pentagon Thursday on another matter were asked about the reports. Sen. Lincoln D. Chafee, R-Rhode Island, said he had not been aware of Boykin's views as described by the Times, then added, "If that's accurate, to me it's deplorable."

[Amazon 7]

Duece Dear.. any uniform on you would look good dear.. even one with a scarf...

Jeanne

[bodypilot90 0]

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The point is, he should not be representing himself as stating the policy of the US government.

he is saying how he feels not policy. Having seen part of his service record he has earn the right to wear his uniform any where he damn well pleases!

[bodypilot90 0]

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And not shooting of your mouth is part of being in the uniform of this country.

Jeanne, Jeanne, you got to be kidding. He was on his own time

[bodypilot90 0]

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When you were in the Army, you had also given up a number of your Constitutional rights. Generals don't get a pass on that part.

and what part of the UCMJ did he violate? NONE!

[Squeak 17]

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From CNN:

WASHINGTON (AP)
Lt. Gen. William G. Boykin, whose promotion and appointment was confirmed by the Senate in June, has said publicly that he sees the war on terrorism as a clash between Judeo-Christian values and Satan, the Los Angeles Times reported Thursday.

Appearing in dress uniform before a religious group in Oregon in June, Boykin said Islamic extremists hate the United States "because we're a Christian nation, because our foundation and our roots are Judeo-Christians. ... And the enemy is a guy named Satan."
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You guys have some seriously f##cked up ppl running the show don't you

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[bodypilot90 0]

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Have you ever even BEEN in uniform?? And been out of line???

No! Have you?