erdnarob 1 #1 May 15, 2011 There has been a very special fatal accident a week ago in Canada when a head down jumper who has left the airplane among the last jumpers from 13000 feet or so has died from impact with the ground. Beside loosing a friend the problem was that his body has been found at about half a mile away from his rig. Even though we didn't know the make of the rig it was said that the chest strap was completely undone while the leg straps were at their maximum slack. His Vigil reportedly has fired. The accident is under investigation however I tried already to figure out with the available infos what could have happened to this unfortunate fellow who had more than 1000 jumps. I have thought about several possible scenarios but I would like to hear about your comments and hypothesis from you Drop zone.com fellows. Thanks. That can be helpful to jumpers in general but particularly to the head down jumpers. We have to remember that the equipment we use is not intended to be deployed at high speed encountered in some freefly activities.Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hellis 0 #2 May 15, 2011 Any video or pictures from inside the plane where you can see if he had his straps undone before exit? All straps beeing undone like that sounds to me like suicide Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gearless_chris 1 #3 May 15, 2011 I don't think I'd go there just yet. He might have forgotten the chest strap. or mis-routed it. I've seen stainless hardware that constantly loosens up. With all the flapping that would happen with the rig falling empty, the leg straps could've worked themselves to the stops on their own."If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane. My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
erdnarob 1 #4 May 15, 2011 Unfortunately, at this moment, I don't have any further informations. For sure the stainless steel hardware doesn't help in case of hard opening. But something surprised me recently : some manufacturers are providing their rigs without any stop at the end of the chest strap ???!!! I don't know if this was the case in this accident. I guess having no stop at the end of the chest strap is to make it easier for the jumper to undo it when he wants more wing for swooping. It seems the deceased was jumping alone. I heard also about some videos being shoot. The case is under Police investigation but so far, very strangely, the CSPA Technical & Safety committee has not been contacted. A trick to make webbing less slippery : apply bee wax on it. After a while the webbing strands are more and more compressed and become shiny and slippery. I want to offer my condolences to the family, close friends and DZ. A single fellow lost is already too much.Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gearless_chris 1 #5 May 15, 2011 I've jumped a rig with no stop on the chest strap, maybe it was a Wings, anyway, it made me real uncomfortable not having it there. You could probably have a master rigger add a stop to it if you don't have one already."If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane. My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 27 #6 May 15, 2011 Quotemaybe it was a Wings It probably was a Javelin.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hellis 0 #7 May 15, 2011 I jump with one of those without a stop at the end and they are not as easy to take of as you might think. I find the the normal wide cheststrap easier to loosen than the thinner without a stop. As if the hardware bites on to the cheststrap better. Some of the people i jump with dont even know how to loosen the cheststrap under canopy because it holds the strap that hard. But even if he did forget to connect the cheststrap or missrouted it, i dont understand how the legstraps can be at their stops. If he would have had a deployment i can see the staps slipping to its ends, but if i understand it correct there was only a reserve out due to AAD? That leads me to belive he fell out of the harness before pullaltitude Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 278 #8 May 15, 2011 So this would be about the May 8, 2011 accident that had little revealed about it in the Incidents forum: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4116896; Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 278 #9 May 15, 2011 I never met Martin H.-T., but here are a couple pics from a memorial facebook page. Appears to be a fully articulated Mirage with full width, double thickness chest strap, with foldback. Of course I don't know what he was jumping at the time but these are from a bunch of recent photos where he has that jumpsuit and rig. The second photo isn't as high quality but shows that the rig is better fitting than one might guess from the under canopy, chest strap loosened photo. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ridestrong 1 #10 May 15, 2011 Quote All straps beeing undone like that sounds to me like suicide I have to agree.... Hard to imagine that a completely undone chest strap and fully loosened leg straps would simply go unnoticed prior to exit.*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.* ----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.---- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #11 May 15, 2011 how sad..... 13,000 feet ..leads me to believe it was Not a cessna load..... so then, if it's a turbine load, with lots of people....I am having a hard time to think that a guy with a thousand jumps AND competency in head-down.... is doing a SOLO..???? do not know this gentleman,,, so i guess it IS possible..... but can anyone offer a sensible reason.. why he'd jump by himself... bsbd jt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deyan 36 #12 May 15, 2011 Quote but can anyone offer a sensible reason.. why he'd jump by himself... bsbd jt Doing hop 'n pop to try a new canopy?"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #13 May 15, 2011 Read this for one possibility http://www.makeithappen.com/spsj/fallout.html There are videos around of people sliding out of their rig on the ground.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #14 May 15, 2011 QuoteRead this for one possibility http://www.makeithappen.com/spsj/fallout.html There are videos around of people sliding out of their rig on the ground. True, but he did say the chest strap was completely undone, and the legstraps were in the fully open position. If he jumped it like that, it wouldn't take long at all to come out of it."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #15 May 15, 2011 good answer.... do we KNOW if there was a "new" or different canopy in his container system???/ was the pilot briefed?? about a H & P . and if it WAS, wouldn't the jumper have left, head high, into the relative wind of the exit, AND had a hand onto the PC,, before he got going to terminal?? many questions.....jt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #16 May 16, 2011 QuoteQuote but can anyone offer a sensible reason.. why he'd jump by himself... bsbd jt Doing hop 'n pop to try a new canopy? many people do solos, i have over 1100 jumps and i still do them occassionaly, i see lots of people doing them. and find nothing out of the ordinary in it.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beatnik 2 #17 May 16, 2011 I have a very brisk opening that made the webbing slip and myself hanging from my armpits and the back of my knees in the harness. Not exactly the funnest skydive. I can't explain the chest strap unless it wasn't done up to begin with. The legstraps could have loosened because of the sudden deceleration from head down to canopy opening. Without the chest strap holding him in he probably fell out. With a parachute open, it could have flown and landed the half mile away. I don't necessarily believe suicide at this point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Freeflaw 0 #18 May 16, 2011 similar to incident in lodi (wans't it?) with Belgian girl. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nickfrey 0 #19 May 16, 2011 First post says vigil fired... 1) i have a hard time believing the fall rate of the rig alone would trigger the vigil (could be completely wrong about this but...) 2) If he was in the harness when the vigil fired i don't see it traveling that far and I would think people on the ground would notice a rig falling under canopy without a passenger? On second thought, with minimal wing-loading its' decent would be extremely low, so half mile totally possible BUT those on the ground would certainly notice.... We are missing a lot of pieces of the puzzle here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hellis 0 #20 May 16, 2011 I think we all know AADs fire and dont fire when they are supposed to every now and then. But rig alone in freefall, the weight to size ratio is fairly high. Im not sure that a canopy opens with that low wingload. The canopy might come out and it will slow it down but im not sure it will inflate and become a wing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #21 May 16, 2011 Im not sure that a canopy opens with that low wingload. The canopy might come out and it will slow it down but im not sure it will inflate and become a wing. Quote Ever seen one kite in a light breeze? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #22 May 16, 2011 QuoteIm not sure that a canopy opens with that low wingload. The canopy might come out and it will slow it down but im not sure it will inflate and become a wing. Quote Ever seen one kite in a light breeze? How about a cutaway main catching air and staying aloft? Happens quite often, I see no reason why a reserve would act any differently. So I think it is very plausible that it could have opened to some degree,possibly even more with the 10-15lbs AUW of the system under it."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 99 #23 May 16, 2011 QuoteIm not sure that a canopy opens with that low wingload. There may have been significant load on the harness during much of the opening, before the presumed falling out of the harness. QuoteThe canopy might come out and it will slow it down but im not sure it will inflate and become a wing. It has been done before - a fully inflated canopy continuing to fly after the jumper has left the harness (intentionally - like a stunt).People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hellis 0 #24 May 16, 2011 Nope never seen a cutaway main catching air again. They are usually tangled up and fall marinally slower than the freebag. But thats what i have seen. We dont usually chop good mains in the first place And im not convinced that he was in the harness at the time of deployment. At 1000 jumps and a wide cheststrap with a stop at the end... i just cant see it happen. Sorry but its way to unlikely for me to see that as a possibillity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites likearock 2 #25 May 16, 2011 Quote so then, if it's a turbine load, with lots of people....I am having a hard time to think that a guy with a thousand jumps AND competency in head-down.... is doing a SOLO..???? Solos are common among experienced freefliers. While it would be rare to see a 1,000 jump belly flier do a solo, someone can do a HD or sit solo and really challenge themselves to get stable in different body positions. In fact, sometimes a solo is the best way to work on some of those drills. This is a very disturbing incident. It may just be a very distracted skydiver who forgot to secure his harness. It's happened before - not just the Lodi occurrence, but there was even a camera flier who actually exited without a parachute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
LouDiamond 1 #22 May 16, 2011 QuoteIm not sure that a canopy opens with that low wingload. The canopy might come out and it will slow it down but im not sure it will inflate and become a wing. Quote Ever seen one kite in a light breeze? How about a cutaway main catching air and staying aloft? Happens quite often, I see no reason why a reserve would act any differently. So I think it is very plausible that it could have opened to some degree,possibly even more with the 10-15lbs AUW of the system under it."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 99 #23 May 16, 2011 QuoteIm not sure that a canopy opens with that low wingload. There may have been significant load on the harness during much of the opening, before the presumed falling out of the harness. QuoteThe canopy might come out and it will slow it down but im not sure it will inflate and become a wing. It has been done before - a fully inflated canopy continuing to fly after the jumper has left the harness (intentionally - like a stunt).People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hellis 0 #24 May 16, 2011 Nope never seen a cutaway main catching air again. They are usually tangled up and fall marinally slower than the freebag. But thats what i have seen. We dont usually chop good mains in the first place And im not convinced that he was in the harness at the time of deployment. At 1000 jumps and a wide cheststrap with a stop at the end... i just cant see it happen. Sorry but its way to unlikely for me to see that as a possibillity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites likearock 2 #25 May 16, 2011 Quote so then, if it's a turbine load, with lots of people....I am having a hard time to think that a guy with a thousand jumps AND competency in head-down.... is doing a SOLO..???? Solos are common among experienced freefliers. While it would be rare to see a 1,000 jump belly flier do a solo, someone can do a HD or sit solo and really challenge themselves to get stable in different body positions. In fact, sometimes a solo is the best way to work on some of those drills. This is a very disturbing incident. It may just be a very distracted skydiver who forgot to secure his harness. It's happened before - not just the Lodi occurrence, but there was even a camera flier who actually exited without a parachute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
sundevil777 99 #23 May 16, 2011 QuoteIm not sure that a canopy opens with that low wingload. There may have been significant load on the harness during much of the opening, before the presumed falling out of the harness. QuoteThe canopy might come out and it will slow it down but im not sure it will inflate and become a wing. It has been done before - a fully inflated canopy continuing to fly after the jumper has left the harness (intentionally - like a stunt).People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hellis 0 #24 May 16, 2011 Nope never seen a cutaway main catching air again. They are usually tangled up and fall marinally slower than the freebag. But thats what i have seen. We dont usually chop good mains in the first place And im not convinced that he was in the harness at the time of deployment. At 1000 jumps and a wide cheststrap with a stop at the end... i just cant see it happen. Sorry but its way to unlikely for me to see that as a possibillity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likearock 2 #25 May 16, 2011 Quote so then, if it's a turbine load, with lots of people....I am having a hard time to think that a guy with a thousand jumps AND competency in head-down.... is doing a SOLO..???? Solos are common among experienced freefliers. While it would be rare to see a 1,000 jump belly flier do a solo, someone can do a HD or sit solo and really challenge themselves to get stable in different body positions. In fact, sometimes a solo is the best way to work on some of those drills. This is a very disturbing incident. It may just be a very distracted skydiver who forgot to secure his harness. It's happened before - not just the Lodi occurrence, but there was even a camera flier who actually exited without a parachute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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