OK, (fellow) Gun-Nuts - Seen This?

[gary350 0]

Originally saw this in Wired magazine, of all places. Looked it up on-line - after a few minutes, almost had to start surfing with one hand

Santa, can you bring me one?

http://www.hkpro.com/pdw.htm

[kai2k1 0]

OHHHH I want one!!!! it almost looks like something used in science fiction movies.

There's no truer sense of flying than sky diving," Scott Cowan

[Jethers203 0]

Are they out yet? How much? I am sure they are way fucking overpriced just like everything else HK makes.

[Shawndiver 0]

Shoot, out here in California, they'll probably even outlaw owning a picture of one of those!

Shawn

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[wingnut 0]

to bad we would never get to ever see the 20 or 40 round mags.. well not unless you are in law enforcment or the militarty (and have it issued to you there) and i wonder whatthe stopping power is of the round... couple mm smaller than a m-16 round.....

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"i have no reader's digest version"

[Darius11 12]

Wow i tought NY was bad i have 40 round clips for my AK
i can't belive they won't let you have that in UT

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[TheAnvil 0]

Anyone wishing to get me a Christmas gift need look no further....

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[bch7773 0]

I've seen this in a game I've played. It claims the strange caliber is armor-peircing.

Out of curiousity, what kind of group would be using this gun? SWAT teams? Army? Police?

MB 3528, RB 1182

[metalslug 31]

Yikes! That is, simply put, an awful calibre. 4.6 mm calculates to 0.182 inches. That's alarmingly small, IMO too small. The cartridges look like 'baby' versions of the .223 Remington in M16 variants.
(Was this gun designed for rodent genocide ?)
It probably can penetrate light body armor but in most close-quarters urban combat you really wouldn't want something like that.
To take down a tough assailant with that gun you would definitely need to fire multiple shots, many of which are likely rip tiny holes right through the target, continuing on behind the target to ricochet of surfaces, strike objects, and potentialy harm innocent bystanders in proximity.

I'd be much happier with the HK UMP 45;
fewer shots required and less likely to present a ballistic danger outside of the target area.

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[wingnut 0]

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Wow i tought NY was bad i have 40 round clips for my AK
i can't belive they won't let you have that in UT

oh i have 40 rnd magazines for my ak too... but didn't ya know... they passed that damned "brady bill" back in the 90's... sort of limits the NEW magazines you can buy and since this will be a new production run you won't beable to find any "pre-ban" mags for it....... same deal as why you can't buy any machine guns manufacured after like 86' or so.... same rason.... gun laws.... i personaly like to go and shoot shit.... as i said though shoot shit meaning things, not people.... to bad the lawmakers do't relize that and let us have our toys back..lol...... oh well.. not going to turn this into a gun debate as i hate them and think they are a waste of energy...

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"i have no reader's digest version"

[AggieDave 6]

Yup, seen those.

Basically, that's replacing the MP5 all around the country with tactical groups (swat teams, counter-terror teams (like the HRT), etc).

Everyone that has one/uses one swears by it and says it makes the MP5 look like a worthless toy, and the MP5 was the absolute best sub-machinegun for CQB.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[freeflir29 0]

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Yikes! That is, simply put, an awful calibre. 4.6 mm calculates to 0.182 inches. That's alarmingly small, IMO too small. The cartridges look like 'baby' versions of the .223 Remington in M16 variants.

Uhh.....check the tables near the bottom of the page. 2378 F/Sec muzzle velocity. I think you could easily put down a 250Lb guy with ONE round. Especially considering that's a little more than TWICE the muzzle velocity of a .45. Oh...and since it will penetrate 1.6 MM of TITANIUM + 20 LAYERS OF KEVLAR at GREATER THAN 200M that 250 Lb guy can be wearing some high tech body armor and still go down. Would an UMP 45 do that. Not even close......

[metalslug 31]

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I think you could easily put down a 250Lb guy with ONE round.

At the risk of stating the obvious, a person is increasingly likely to be incapacitated by larger wound cavity than a smaller one.
A .45 FMJ penetrates about 10 to 15 inches of ballistic gelatin, creating a stretch cavity (or wound cavity) of around 1.6 to 2.4 cubic inches.
A good .45 JHP bullet can expand to around .75 inches and penetrate 9 to 12 inches of ballistic gelatin, creating a stretch cavity of around 5.3 cubic inches.

I absolutely guarantee you that the 4.6 x 30 caliber cannot possibly equal a wound cavity of that size. Assuming the average man has no more than about 12 inches of flesh to penetrate, the stretch cavity would be a mere 1.25 cubic inches, about one-quarter as effective as a good .45 ACP JHP.
Granted; the shock effect from kinetic energy at a higher muzzle velocity would increase the 4.6's stopping power, but not hugely so.

After that the bullet would exit out the back of the target and proceed on to hit whatever is behind, including ricochet surfaces... which is generaly not a desired result in CQB. The .45 and 9mm are more likely not to pass through the target. They would transfer nearly all of their energy to the target whereas the 4.6 would only transfer a fraction and use the rest of its energy only after it had passed out the back of the target.

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..1.6 MM of TITANIUM + 20 LAYERS OF KEVLAR at GREATER THAN 200M..

I doubt it would often happen that SWAT or any team involved in CQB would routinely be engaging targets at 200+ meters, I would also question the accuracy of a short-barreled, unscoped sub-machine gun at 200+ meters. The AR15 seems a more obvious choice at those ranges.

If law enforcement has accepted this weapon for general CQB use I can only assume that decision was taken by a politician during an expensive dinner with H&K marketing personnel.

[freeflir29 0]

Not sure exactly how this 4.6 performs but I'll go out on a limb and say it's probably something like the 5.56. Which means.....it won't produce a single wound cavity. The 5.56 normally turns sideways after entering and then the projectile breaks apart creating multiple wound channels. That's using a FMJ round. Get a "Ballistic Tip" and it does even better. Yeah.....there is more risk associated with Ricochet but that's why you need to hit what you are shooting at....then there's no problem.

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I doubt it would often happen that SWAT or any team involved in CQB would routinely be engaging targets at 200+ meters

Probably not....but you can always try. I could never hit the 350M pop up with my GAU-5 (AR-15) Always pulled it left or right no matter how hard I tried. Of course...those things were literally Vietnam war relics.

[JohnRich 4]

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2378 F/Sec muzzle velocity. I think you could easily put down a 250Lb guy with ONE round. Especially considering that's a little more than TWICE the muzzle velocity of a .45.

Muzzle velocity by itself means nothing. What counts is kinetic energy, which is function of both the weight of the bullet, and the velocity. The .45 bullet is "slow", but it weighs 230 grains usually, and that combination imparts a heck of a lot of energy to anyone it hits. This new HK bullet is tiny, and even though it's fast, I question it's instant knockdown ability. That's about the same velocity as the .223 that the military uses, with heavier bullets, and they already have problems incapacitating bad guys with one round.

I'll take an M14 in .308 any day.

This new sub-gun doesn't look like it would be good for anything except clearing the city dump of rats...

[freeflir29 0]

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I'll take an M14 in .308 any day.

Great rifle.....but I'd be ready to toss it after carrying the first mile.

[base515 0]

I'll gladly take it if you throw it down. I love the one I have already.

May we live long and die out

[JohnRich 4]

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I'll take an M14 in .308 any day.

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Great rifle.....but I'd be ready to toss it after carrying the first mile.

Well, if you carry this HK into battle, an enemy that sees you first beyond 200 yards is going to make mincemeat out of you.

It might be good for clearing rooms by police SWAT teams, but I'm not sure it's good for much beyond that. And even then, I wonder about the stopping power of that puny little bullet.

[freeflir29 0]

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Well, if you carry this HK into battle, an enemy that sees you first beyond 200 yards is going to make mincemeat out of you.

It would have to be better than the Sig Saur 229 I carry now. A little harder to conceal under a shirt though.

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I wonder about the stopping power of that puny little bullet.

A lot of people said that about the 5.56 too. It took the Russians about 40 years to realize that smaller and faster was better. Hence the AKM-74.

[fasterfaller 0]

I have a few dealer samples of this gun and it is quite a nice shooter . Every one that has shot it loves it .

[Brodes 0]

Gun laws are quite strict in australia, we even need licences for paintball guns and BB's are banned.
What do collectors do with a automatic cqb weapojn like that anyway?

[freeflir29 0]

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What do collectors do with a automatic cqb weapojn like that anyway?

Well...some own them just cause they can.....others because they are a tool that they work with.....then there's the other group that competes in things like 3 gun matches that require a sub gun.

[mnischalke 0]

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Which means.....it won't produce a single wound cavity. The 5.56 normally turns sideways after entering and then the projectile breaks apart creating multiple wound channels. That's using a FMJ round.

Actually, that's not the case. When they were using 55-grain bullets with a slow twist rate, yes, the bullet would tend to tumble when it's flight was disrupted. Newer, heavier bullets are better matched to newer, faster twist rates of most available barrels. What was to meant to increase accuracy, especially at greater distances, has come to sacrifice wounding potential. Also, FMJ has to hit something very hard to fragment. It will not fragment in soft material. Check an earthen bullet trap sometime. OTOH, ballistic tip ammo, such as Hornady's TAP will fragment within an inch or two of penetration, depending upon the density of the target. "Over stabilization" from the faster twist barrels actually increases the likelihood of fragmentation on softer surfaces, therefore releasing all of its energy in a short space. This is also why for CQB, .223 TAP is better than any hollowpoint handgun caliber.

I've shot the HK PDW, FN P90, FN fiveseven pistol, HK MP5k, MP5A3sd, UMP .45 (suppressed and unsuppressed), etc., etc., etc. Each of those firearms is great. Not one of them is a single replacement for the rest. Each firearm has its own perfect scenario, and each will suck donkey dick in others. The PDW fires a projectile at similar velocities to the .223 Remington from a short barrel, but (big but) the projectile is less than half the weight of the .223. To compensate for the wounding deficiency of the 4.6mm round, they'll probably come up with a ballistic tip, but there goes your armor penetration.

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I could never hit the 350M pop up with my GAU-5 (AR-15) Always pulled it left or right no matter how hard I tried. Of course...those things were literally Vietnam war relics.

It probably wasnt the dope on the gun, it was probably the dope behind it. I had a Marine-issue M16 that was so beat I had to really lean on it to remove the slop between the upper and lower receivers. One fine day at the 500-yard line, with the stars lined up and the conditions just right and a magazine full of some friendly SS109, I knocked the first-round spotter off the spindle with the second shot and shattered the spindle with the third. Those guns will still shoot, my dear boy, I can promise you that.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[mnischalke 0]

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...That's about the same velocity as the .223 that the military uses, with heavier bullets, and they already have problems incapacitating bad guys with one round.

This wasn't gonna be a problem in the European theater, for which it was designed. They expected that wounding an enemy soldier was better than killing him, because wounding takes out the target and the three guys who have to carry him. In the middle east, they found that nobody was carrying the wounded. In fact, the wounded wouldn't even quit fighting. Good news tho. There's a new round on the horizon, but it's gonna require rebarrelling every M16 out there to field.

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I'll take an M14 in .308 any day.

Funny thing, they are fielding M14 in Iraq right now. Unfortunately, those guns have parts which are not NSNed anymore, and they are going to civilian manufacturers for parts. I shot the sweetest M1A ever on Thursday. Springfield Armory is already producing their new M14/M1A SOCOM rifle for a few of the boys overseas. It's an M14/M1A with a 16.5-inch barrel(!!!!) and a tiny comp which completely removes muzzle rise. It's an amazing rifle. I might have found something to finally distract me from my AR fetish. It should be commercially available next year.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[mnischalke 0]

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What do collectors do with a automatic cqb weapojn like that anyway?

In the states, unless gun laws (NFA laws) change, you won't see any of these PDWs in the hands of collectors who don't plan on maintaining a Class III dealer's license till they die. Much like the 5.7mm cartridge of the FN guns, I don't think we'll ever see commercially available 4.6mm ammo, unless something dramatic takes place. I could be wrong...

OTOH, firearms like these are just plain fun (albeit expensive) to shoot.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.