Mirage + Skyhook

[virgin-burner 1]

Quote

still that is alot easier then,
following the main down and hoping that someone saw your freebag.

if it stays together 80-90 percent of the time, means after 100 cutaways, you've only lost about 20 freebags
vs
without skyhook, you probably lost about 80 to 90 freebags.

if you have 100 cutaways in your lifetime, maybe you should never be allowed to skydive..

that is if you're not a testjumper.

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi Phree,

Quote

I am really surprised that it did not at least need to get field approval for some of the changes like the extra flap being added.

I do not speak for Bill Booth and I only know what he told me face to face:

'. . . he does not believe that he has altered the parachute system . . . '

Now you could take this up with him.

JerryBaumchen

[jurgencamps 0]

Quote

Quote

A few years ago, a jumper in final was hit from above by somebody making a hookturn.
"So you honestly can say that it happened quite low "
Her canopy was torn in 2 pieces. She cutaway and pulled reserve as fast as possible. Her slider was down a second before she landed. She never had time to release her brakes.

Was this with or without a skyhook? If it was with, I think (without knowing all the facts of the collision) that she put too much faith in the system, given the fact that it DOESN'T work all the time. Obviously she made a right choice, but every situation is different, and I hate for people to think that cutting away at 2-300 feet is a good "safe" option.

It was before the skyhook and sorry to disappoint you, but not cutting away was not an option. The main started spinning violently, so a canopy transfer would just create a bigger mess. Hoping that you are lucky enough to have an open reserve or landing under a still inflating reserve would still be a better option than landing under two pilotchutes (read completely entangeled main and reserve?

Do not forget that she was under a 100% functioning main before the impact (low speed) and not in freefall (high speed).

Nobody said it was a good safe option It was just the only option.

[sundevil777 93]

I understand you're saying it was spinning violently, but the ability for a reserve to open into a mess should not be underestimated.

Of course it is a lousy option, but I believe a viable one.

We should also remember that the really fast skyhook reserve deployments are when the main is flying normally, fully open. The reserve would take longer to open when it is being 'skyhooked' open by a torn canopy/baglock/etc. as in this case, closer toward the altitude needed in a non-skyhook deployment.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[KellyF 16]

Quote

It was before the skyhook and sorry to disappoint you, but not cutting away was not an option. The main started spinning violently, so a canopy transfer would just create a bigger mess. Hoping that you are lucky enough to have an open reserve or landing under a still inflating reserve would still be a better option than landing under two pilotchutes (read completely entangeled main and reserve?

Do not forget that she was under a 100% functioning main before the impact (low speed) and not in freefall (high speed).

Nobody said it was a good safe option It was just the only option.

Why would I be disappointed because someone DIDN'T do a canopy transfer and lived (I wasn't even suggesting a transfer, but maybe pulling the reserve before cutting away)? I try not to come onto the forums to "Monday morning quarterback" people's choices, especially when I didn't witness the incident.

All I'm saying is that there seem to be a lot of people that feel they can safely cutaway lower if their rig is equipped with a Skyhook. This is a scary trend if it fails to perform as advertised ~15% of the time (according to DiabloPilot's experience).

Look at it this way- if our main pilot chute collapsed before it extracted the bagged canopy from the container 15% of the time, or if our AAD's failed to turn on 15% of the time, we would get a new main PC or send the AAD back to the manufacturer.

There will always be exceptions to the rule, but jumpers should not cutaway any lower with a Skyhook than they would with a standard RSL, because that's exactly what they might get.

[BETO74 0]

[quoBut skyhook has one advantage at time of cutaway.
Everything stays together and you only have to chase one thing.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Only about 80-90 % they stay together. And if you lose your main, your freebag goes as well.

Blue skieste]

I guess it depends on how you read the statitstics I had 2 skyhook cut aways two of them the free bag did not stay with the main so thats a 100% of my jumps it did not work as intended! I really do not care I do believe the skyhook save me in at least one instance where I was too low after fighting a linetwist with a Katana 107. I have two other cut aways with no RSL and I dont think my reserve would had the chance to inflate completetly on that occasion so yes I agree with if you have to use a skyhook to save your life cuz you are low you had made a series of bad decisions that put you in that spot

http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html

[theonlyski 3]

Wasn't the rigger seal thread thru the hook an after thought that would help keep the bag with the main? Were yours done that way or without the seal thread?

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[liftedtitan 0]

Quote

On two out of 14 skyhook equipped reserve rides I've had, the skyhook failed to function as intended resulting in a standard reserve deployment.

Can you explain what it did not do?

Moriuntur omnes, sed non omnes vixerunt.

[firemedic 7]

Quote

Quote

On two out of 14 skyhook equipped reserve rides I've had, the skyhook failed to function as intended resulting in a standard reserve deployment.

Can you explain what it did not do?

Sorry for butting in. I had the same thing happen to me.
I've had 9 chops with the SkyHook system and 1 time it deployed by PC. I know the lanyard was connected because I found it attached to the riser, and I know I properly tied the seal thread on the hook with the lanyard inside. I was spinning pretty fast under a tension knot. I've been trying to figure that one out.

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi titan,

Quote

Can you explain what it did not do?

The lanyard from the RSL to the actual 'hook' comes off of the hook. Then you get a convential RSL activation.

I have seen videos of this happening; taken via handi-cam.

I think everyone would like to know why.

Just my thoughts . . .

JerryBaumchen

[riggerpaul 1]

Quote

Hi titan,

Quote

Can you explain what it did not do?

The lanyard from the RSL to the actual 'hook' comes off of the hook. Then you get a convential RSL activation.

I have seen videos of this happening; taken via handi-cam.

I think everyone would like to know why.

Just my thoughts . . .

JerryBaumchen

Agree. The red lanyard came off the hook.

Seems to me that a spin with a high enough rate would mean the reserve pilot chute "sees" the relative wind as coming from the side. Having the reserve pilot chute pulling in that direction might slip the hook out of the lanyard.

I wonder if it also depends on the direction of spin, with one direction being more prone to slip the lanyard off the hook than the other.

Love to see your video. Is the reserve pilot chute pulling perpendicular, or nearly so, to the line from the jumper to the main?

[skydiverek 55]

Could magnetic riser covers come in contact with the Skyhook, attract it (since it is metal), and therefore somehow change the physics?

[theonlyski 3]

Quote

Could magnetic riser covers come in contact with the Skyhook, attract it (since it is metal), and therefore somehow change the physics?

I'm fairly certain that the skyhook is aluminum.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[Deyan 31]

Quote

Quote

Could magnetic riser covers come in contact with the Skyhook, attract it (since it is metal), and therefore somehow change the physics?

I'm fairly certain that the skyhook is aluminum.

It's aluminum.

But my theory is different and also involve the magnetic covers. What I think it happens when you have a rig with magnets and a skyhook, is that the covers tend to get closed again and they also close the upper part of reserve container, making it more difficult for the freebag to leave the container. (Note: I did only a table testing. It's too expensive for me to do the real "in air" tests.)

Especially when you are spinning on your back. That delay is not really big, but it's just enough for the reserve PC to beat the skyhook.

Anyway, I still believe that the skyhook is good for the big size reserves. Tandems, student etc. And I still believe that the jumpers are giving it too much credit based on the skyhook promo video.

Blue skies

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[firemedic 7]

Anyway, I still believe that the skyhook is good for the big size reserves. Tandems, student etc. And I still believe that the jumpers are giving it too much credit based on the skyhook promo video.

Maybe Not

3-18-2007 Read this in the fatality database. Canopy collision low to the ground. Guy with skyhook lived, guy without skyhook died.
Skyhook is not an excuse to become complacent or wreckless. The same goes for an aad. It may have been just enough to make the difference in this situation.

[Deyan 31]

Quote

Anyway, I still believe that the skyhook is good for the big size reserves. Tandems, student etc. And I still believe that the jumpers are giving it too much credit based on the skyhook promo video.

Maybe Not

3-18-2007 Read this in the fatality database. Canopy collision low to the ground. Guy with skyhook lived, guy without skyhook died.
Skyhook is not an excuse to become complacent or wreckless. The same goes for an aad. It may have been just enough to make the difference in this situation.

Are you sure that they both chopped at the same altitude? If the guy with the skyhook chopped first and survived and the other guy stayed 2 seconds with the mess and chopped after that,you can't really give the credit to the skyhook.

Blue skies

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[firemedic 7]

Quote

Quote

Anyway, I still believe that the skyhook is good for the big size reserves. Tandems, student etc. And I still believe that the jumpers are giving it too much credit based on the skyhook promo video.

Maybe Not

3-18-2007 Read this in the fatality database. Canopy collision low to the ground. Guy with skyhook lived, guy without skyhook died.
Skyhook is not an excuse to become complacent or wreckless. The same goes for an aad. It may have been just enough to make the difference in this situation.

Are you sure that they both chopped at the same altitude? If the guy with the skyhook chopped first and survived and the other guy stayed 2 seconds with the mess and chopped after that,you can't really give the credit to the skyhook.

Blue skies

I'm not referring to the guy who lived but the guy who did not. From what the report said the guy without the skyhook cutaway at approximately 200'. We know there is no way a reserve can deploy in 200' by pilot chute. If the altitude was correct that he cutaway at 200' what I'm saying is if he had a skyhook and it functioned properly it may have been just enough to save this guys life.

[Beatnik 2]

Quote

I'm not referring to the guy who lived but the guy who did not. From what the report said the guy without the skyhook cutaway at approximately 200'. We know there is no way a reserve can deploy in 200' by pilot chute. If the altitude was correct that he cutaway at 200' what I'm saying is if he had a skyhook and it functioned properly it may have been just enough to save this guys life.

That is a big maybe IMO. At 200' that is not a lot of time and if he cutaway, that reserve would take some time to inflate and that is not affected by having a skyhook or not. He could end up coming in with a partially inflated reserve or he may not have the reaction time to land safely.

Cutting it that close is like rolling the dice, whether you have a skyhook or not, you could end up dying. Deploying the reserve is only one part to that complex problem. So I am not convinced that a skyhook would completely change the situation.

[firemedic 7]

Quote

Quote

I'm not referring to the guy who lived but the guy who did not. From what the report said the guy without the skyhook cutaway at approximately 200'. We know there is no way a reserve can deploy in 200' by pilot chute. If the altitude was correct that he cutaway at 200' what I'm saying is if he had a skyhook and it functioned properly it may have been just enough to save this guys life.

That is a big maybe IMO. At 200' that is not a lot of time and if he cutaway, that reserve would take some time to inflate and that is not affected by having a skyhook or not. He could end up coming in with a partially inflated reserve or he may not have the reaction time to land safely.

Cutting it that close is like rolling the dice, whether you have a skyhook or not, you could end up dying. Deploying the reserve is only one part to that complex problem. So I am not convinced that a skyhook would completely change the situation.

You are correct to say it is a very big maybe. In this sport there are all kinds of what ifs that can happen. The best we can do is try to be prepared for what ever eventuality may arise. I'm sure he didn't see that collision coming before he boarded the plane but he probably thought about it at some point during his skydiving career. I have. Now, let clarify the point I'm trying to make. First set pro skyhook, anti skyhook, or indifference to skyhook aside.
Now just look solely on the circumstances surrounding this incident. The guy cut away too low for his reserve to deploy sufficiently to save his life. If you watch the videos of skyhook deployments compared to those without skyhook assistance the skyhook deployments are significantly faster.
I'm not promoting skyhook, just stating what I observed.
The only thing I'm considering is whether or not there was an appreciable possibility that a skyhook could have saved his life. IMHO I believe the possibility exists. It's obvious he didn't survive without one.

[Beatnik 2]

Quote

You are correct to say it is a very big maybe. In this sport there are all kinds of what ifs that can happen. The best we can do is try to be prepared for what ever eventuality may arise. I'm sure he didn't see that collision coming before he boarded the plane but he probably thought about it at some point during his skydiving career. I have. Now, let clarify the point I'm trying to make. First set pro skyhook, anti skyhook, or indifference to skyhook aside.
Now just look solely on the circumstances surrounding this incident. The guy cut away too low for his reserve to deploy sufficiently to save his life. If you watch the videos of skyhook deployments compared to those without skyhook assistance the skyhook deployments are significantly faster.
I'm not promoting skyhook, just stating what I observed.
The only thing I'm considering is whether or not there was an appreciable possibility that a skyhook could have saved his life. IMHO I believe the possibility exists. It's obvious he didn't survive without one.

I know what you are saying in trying to be prepared. I never thought about a canopy collision but it sure happened when that junior jumper decided to pull off a couple of 360's without looking a 1000'.

I have seen a lot of the skyhook videos and I have seen a lot of regular deployment videos but I won't completely agree with them being significantly faster. Sure in some cases they are but I have seen some reserves without a MARD deploy a reserve in around the 80' mark from the skyhook deployment. I don't consider that significant faster. Depending on your view point, if you look at a scenario where 80' would matter, than it could be considered significantly faster. But I am looking at it as a whole. Also some of the skyhook videos out there are with slider down deployments which of course are going to be extremely fast. The Skyhook assists with getting it out of the bag quicker, it doesn't mean that the canopy is going to inflate in any quicker time than it would with a regular deployment.

Saying that there is a possibility that a skyhook could have saved his life because he died without one is a very bad argument. I think I understand what you are trying to say but if that is the reasoning behind it, the argument is completely invalid. I have not seen the video but like any scenario there was probably a bunch of things that may have been able to prevent the incident, but at 200' you are gambling whether you have a MARD or not.