captain1976 0 #1 August 31, 2010 Anyone still doing that? I was just curious after reading some older threads. Seems that there were less malfunctions with the flat vs the pro.You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #2 August 31, 2010 Quote Anyone still doing that? I was just curious after reading some older threads. Seems that there were less malfunctions with the flat vs the pro. If you have a T520 from Strong you have to do that way. I was told that T520 can be propacked only once. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #3 August 31, 2010 I have seen Strong T520 canopies flat-packed and PRO-packed. It made little difference, they all opened HARD! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kellja2001 0 #4 August 31, 2010 <-- No experience. I was learning to pack tandems this weekend (read, I don't have a flipping clue what I'm talking about). Half of the instructors I spoke to liked their rigs to be flat packed, the other half preferred them to be pro-packed. Those who preferred pro-packing tended to be of the opinion that "Flat packing tandems is for fools". Those who preferred them to be flat-packed didn't seem to have a strong opinion the other way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ataltitude 0 #5 August 31, 2010 I do both. with flat the openings seem to not snivel as long compare to pro, so a little harder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elias123 0 #6 August 31, 2010 At my DZ, tandems are always flat packed."In a mad world, only the mad are sane" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #7 August 31, 2010 If you flat-pack, remember to alternate left and right. That way the end cells will wear out at the same rate. One of the problems with (flat-packed) Strong 520 canopies is that one end cell would always open first and absorb the bulk of opening shock. It did not always survive opening shock! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
captain1976 0 #8 August 31, 2010 QuoteIf you flat-pack, remember to alternate left and right. That way the end cells will wear out at the same rate. Good point, but do you think it makes a difference on the canopies of today in which many are designed with built-in snivel?You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 0 #9 August 31, 2010 Since I'm not from a facility that uses Strongs, I am not positive here but weren't those roll packed? I can see packing it on opposite sides making a difference on a roll pack but not a traditional flat pack. (not directed at Rob) A traditional flat pack is just stacking the lines on each other. With the old 421s and 500s, the diagram attached is how I stacked them for bulk distribution and keeping lines closer to the middle. Clear the stabilizers.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites fcajump 153 #10 August 31, 2010 QuoteAnyone still doing that? I was just curious after reading some older threads. Seems that there were less malfunctions with the flat vs the pro. (~5 year old info) The Strong Set 400 seemed to be OK eitherway (FLOP pack / PRO). However, while most folks that PRO packed them liked the D-bag sides sewn up, I liked the velcro option when I Flop packed... seemed easier that way. Just Me... JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peek 20 #11 August 31, 2010 QuoteSince I'm not from a facility that uses Strongs, I am not positive here but weren't those roll packed? They could have been, but think I recall seeing a manual showing a stack pack. But I don't have a manual. Quote With the old 421s and 500s, the diagram attached is how I stacked them for bulk distribution and keeping lines closer to the middle. Clear the stabilizers. Thanks for the drawing. That also helps people understand that a stack pack is actually rather symmetrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #12 August 31, 2010 Remember when it used to called "factory pack"? That distinguished it from what I would call "roll pack".People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pchapman 262 #13 September 1, 2010 At my DZ (in Ontario Canada) the DZO has all the Sigma tandems flat packed. But he's a flat packing fan (eg, all student canopies must be flat packed). He believes flat packing tandems will reduce the malfunction rate, and cites a couple US DZ's who apparently found that to be true. But that may be from 2002 or so when the DZ first went to Sigmas. Most at the DZ are not convinced. Maybe it reduces line overs from poor pro packing, but that can be a training and supervision issue. I don't know if we've had any line over mals over the years with flat packing, but it certainly hasn't come up as an issue among the tandem instructors. Most tandem mals over the years have been tension knots, I think especially as the Dacron Sigma lines get closer to replacement time. I don't see that pro packing would have much advantage in that regard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites captain1976 0 #14 September 1, 2010 From what I have read and seen, I think think the best way to reduce the overall malfunction rate would be to flat pack all tandems. I doubt anyone will actually make the change since not only is there an issue with some packers who don't know how to flat pack, the other problem is that it can take 3 times the space. Additionally, to make any transition from a DZ's typical method of packing would likely cause staff problems and a slow-down of operations and $$$$.You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Abedy 0 #15 September 1, 2010 We use NeXt rigs with EZ or Twin canopies, all items manufactured by Paratec. (NeXt rigs are Vector type.) The preferred method here is flat packing, encouraged by the DZ operator. You're much in control of the lines and can prevent lineovers fairly well. I usually jump an EZ 384 that opens fairly well, almost snivelish. I tried pro packing as well. The openings were OK, too but I mistrusted myself - did I really get them lines in line (SCNR) and am now pretty comfortable with flat packing. Paratec now produces the Twin Century (hybrid ZP and F111, sized 365 AFAIK) and recommends pro packing for it. I jumped it once and was delighted. Resembles the Icarus canopies - snivels, toggle pressure fairly light, tremendous flare. If I had this one, I'd change to pro. I also noticed that pro pack advocates are hmm... sort of stubborn; pro or nothing... whilst flat packers don't seem to be that strongly biased. My 2 €-cents... The sky is not the limit. The ground is. The Society of Skydiving Ducks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites captain1976 0 #16 September 1, 2010 I also noticed that pro pack advocates are hmm... sort of stubborn; pro or nothing... whilst flat packers don't seem to be that strongly biased. My 2 €-cents... Bias is perpetuated by conformity or ignorance, meaning that the stubbornness you refer to is simply that most pro packers probably don't know how to flat pack.You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 37 #17 September 1, 2010 We've done both at my dz. Had a couple more mals pro-packing than flat-packing but nothing that could be attributed to the pack job per se.. Flat packing did seem to give consistantly harder openings however.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites captain1976 0 #18 September 2, 2010 In all fairness, I understand that flat packing the canopies without packing tabs is a real bitch. I'm not sure who includes them or who offers them as an option, maybe someone here can enlighten me.You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JerryBaumchen 1,068 #19 September 2, 2010 Hi captain, Quote not sure who includes them or who offers them as an option, Just about any rigger could sew them on; it ain't rocket science. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BrianM 1 #20 September 2, 2010 QuoteIn all fairness, I understand that flat packing the canopies without packing tabs is a real bitch. Not really. I usually don't bother with packing tabs when flat packing. It's just as quick and easy to grab the seam."It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jerolim 7 #21 September 2, 2010 I jump BT 410 sqft, and I am pro-packing it. Openings are great. Btw, it is older model with lots of jumps and it is difficult to flare. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peek 20 #22 September 2, 2010 QuoteJust about any rigger could sew them on; it ain't rocket science. That's exactly right, Jerry. http://www.pcprg.com/stiltabs.gif But I don't think it is that hard to grab the seams of a parachute without packing tabs. Some of the first ram-air canopies didn't have packing tabs and they managed to get packed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Abedy 0 #23 September 2, 2010 Hi Captain, as I wrote before, I usually jump the EZ (Elliptical ZeroP) which comes with packing tabs. I was quite surprised to find out the (old) Twin canopies come without them. Once you got used to packing tabs, you miss 'em :-)The sky is not the limit. The ground is. The Society of Skydiving Ducks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites theonlyski 3 #24 September 2, 2010 Quote Hi captain, Quote not sure who includes them or who offers them as an option, Just about any rigger could sew them on; it ain't rocket science. JerryBaumchen Oh god, making an alteration to a main canopy by a senior rigger?? Everyone is going to die! "I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pangaea 0 #25 September 4, 2010 Yes, at skydive Toronto, that's the only way. No malfunctions yet!!!.Quote Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
hookitt 0 #9 August 31, 2010 Since I'm not from a facility that uses Strongs, I am not positive here but weren't those roll packed? I can see packing it on opposite sides making a difference on a roll pack but not a traditional flat pack. (not directed at Rob) A traditional flat pack is just stacking the lines on each other. With the old 421s and 500s, the diagram attached is how I stacked them for bulk distribution and keeping lines closer to the middle. Clear the stabilizers.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 153 #10 August 31, 2010 QuoteAnyone still doing that? I was just curious after reading some older threads. Seems that there were less malfunctions with the flat vs the pro. (~5 year old info) The Strong Set 400 seemed to be OK eitherway (FLOP pack / PRO). However, while most folks that PRO packed them liked the D-bag sides sewn up, I liked the velcro option when I Flop packed... seemed easier that way. Just Me... JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 20 #11 August 31, 2010 QuoteSince I'm not from a facility that uses Strongs, I am not positive here but weren't those roll packed? They could have been, but think I recall seeing a manual showing a stack pack. But I don't have a manual. Quote With the old 421s and 500s, the diagram attached is how I stacked them for bulk distribution and keeping lines closer to the middle. Clear the stabilizers. Thanks for the drawing. That also helps people understand that a stack pack is actually rather symmetrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #12 August 31, 2010 Remember when it used to called "factory pack"? That distinguished it from what I would call "roll pack".People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 262 #13 September 1, 2010 At my DZ (in Ontario Canada) the DZO has all the Sigma tandems flat packed. But he's a flat packing fan (eg, all student canopies must be flat packed). He believes flat packing tandems will reduce the malfunction rate, and cites a couple US DZ's who apparently found that to be true. But that may be from 2002 or so when the DZ first went to Sigmas. Most at the DZ are not convinced. Maybe it reduces line overs from poor pro packing, but that can be a training and supervision issue. I don't know if we've had any line over mals over the years with flat packing, but it certainly hasn't come up as an issue among the tandem instructors. Most tandem mals over the years have been tension knots, I think especially as the Dacron Sigma lines get closer to replacement time. I don't see that pro packing would have much advantage in that regard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
captain1976 0 #14 September 1, 2010 From what I have read and seen, I think think the best way to reduce the overall malfunction rate would be to flat pack all tandems. I doubt anyone will actually make the change since not only is there an issue with some packers who don't know how to flat pack, the other problem is that it can take 3 times the space. Additionally, to make any transition from a DZ's typical method of packing would likely cause staff problems and a slow-down of operations and $$$$.You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Abedy 0 #15 September 1, 2010 We use NeXt rigs with EZ or Twin canopies, all items manufactured by Paratec. (NeXt rigs are Vector type.) The preferred method here is flat packing, encouraged by the DZ operator. You're much in control of the lines and can prevent lineovers fairly well. I usually jump an EZ 384 that opens fairly well, almost snivelish. I tried pro packing as well. The openings were OK, too but I mistrusted myself - did I really get them lines in line (SCNR) and am now pretty comfortable with flat packing. Paratec now produces the Twin Century (hybrid ZP and F111, sized 365 AFAIK) and recommends pro packing for it. I jumped it once and was delighted. Resembles the Icarus canopies - snivels, toggle pressure fairly light, tremendous flare. If I had this one, I'd change to pro. I also noticed that pro pack advocates are hmm... sort of stubborn; pro or nothing... whilst flat packers don't seem to be that strongly biased. My 2 €-cents... The sky is not the limit. The ground is. The Society of Skydiving Ducks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
captain1976 0 #16 September 1, 2010 I also noticed that pro pack advocates are hmm... sort of stubborn; pro or nothing... whilst flat packers don't seem to be that strongly biased. My 2 €-cents... Bias is perpetuated by conformity or ignorance, meaning that the stubbornness you refer to is simply that most pro packers probably don't know how to flat pack.You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 37 #17 September 1, 2010 We've done both at my dz. Had a couple more mals pro-packing than flat-packing but nothing that could be attributed to the pack job per se.. Flat packing did seem to give consistantly harder openings however.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
captain1976 0 #18 September 2, 2010 In all fairness, I understand that flat packing the canopies without packing tabs is a real bitch. I'm not sure who includes them or who offers them as an option, maybe someone here can enlighten me.You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,068 #19 September 2, 2010 Hi captain, Quote not sure who includes them or who offers them as an option, Just about any rigger could sew them on; it ain't rocket science. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianM 1 #20 September 2, 2010 QuoteIn all fairness, I understand that flat packing the canopies without packing tabs is a real bitch. Not really. I usually don't bother with packing tabs when flat packing. It's just as quick and easy to grab the seam."It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerolim 7 #21 September 2, 2010 I jump BT 410 sqft, and I am pro-packing it. Openings are great. Btw, it is older model with lots of jumps and it is difficult to flare. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 20 #22 September 2, 2010 QuoteJust about any rigger could sew them on; it ain't rocket science. That's exactly right, Jerry. http://www.pcprg.com/stiltabs.gif But I don't think it is that hard to grab the seams of a parachute without packing tabs. Some of the first ram-air canopies didn't have packing tabs and they managed to get packed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Abedy 0 #23 September 2, 2010 Hi Captain, as I wrote before, I usually jump the EZ (Elliptical ZeroP) which comes with packing tabs. I was quite surprised to find out the (old) Twin canopies come without them. Once you got used to packing tabs, you miss 'em :-)The sky is not the limit. The ground is. The Society of Skydiving Ducks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #24 September 2, 2010 Quote Hi captain, Quote not sure who includes them or who offers them as an option, Just about any rigger could sew them on; it ain't rocket science. JerryBaumchen Oh god, making an alteration to a main canopy by a senior rigger?? Everyone is going to die! "I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pangaea 0 #25 September 4, 2010 Yes, at skydive Toronto, that's the only way. No malfunctions yet!!!.Quote Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
