Democrats bite their own noses to spite their faces

[billvon 2,400]

>Owning a gun doesn't jeopardize anyone around you? is it a magic gun? A water pistol?

To be fair, bystanders have been killed by skydivers too. A swooper in the US killed someone during a demo when a toggle came off in his hand, and a german jumper killed 4 people standing in line when he hit them with nothing out.

[skydivexxl 0]

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>Owning a gun doesn't jeopardize anyone around you? is it a magic gun? A water pistol?

To be fair, bystanders have been killed by skydivers too. A swooper in the US killed someone during a demo when a toggle came off in his hand, and a german jumper killed 4 people standing in line when he hit them with nothing out.

My bad...

Blog Clicky

[jdhill 0]

Where's your proof? *maybe* in NYC, but nationally, the means of acquisition are as I stated...links are elsewhere in the thread...

I have bought a gun in everyone of those states, except SC... it was no easier than it was in MD.

As for my gun being a danger... I keep them locked up... short of a blow tourch, noone is getting them but me.

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[Kennedy 0]

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Owning a gun doesn't jeopardize anyone around you?

No, it doesn't. Wait, that's not true. Let me try again:

No, it doesn't, unless that 'anyone' is assaulting me or mine.

witty subliminal message
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[mnischalke 0]

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States that opposed a waiting period.

I really think you swallow every line the anti gunners feed you. Your logic is flawed tho. You say that people go down south to buy guns because there is little or no regulation. All firearm sales from a dealer must go through the federal government. There is no way around that--it's the law of the land. Waiting periods are the only things that really differ from state to state. If I was a "gun-runner," who spent a few days traveling to another state to buy guns because there was little or no regulation, would it matter if I spent a few more days there waiting to buy a gun because there was a mandated waiting period? Heck no. I'm gonna go make bank selling these guns! What's a few extra days????

The waiting periods are just another way to discourage people from actually buying a firearm. If you have to wait a week to get a gun you spent a week's salary on, why get it in the first place. Secondly, it prevents the people who need a gun most from acquiring the protection they need--and need NOW. Specifically, women who are being threatened by imminent violence don't have a week to sit around waiting for their gun to get through the "magic safety window." They need it NOW! In a week, they are seven days more likely to be dead.

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If all these illegal guns weren't everywhere, why would we need such protection?

The fact is that they are not everywhere, as you state. Again, they are possessed and used in the smallest percentage of violent crime. Knives are used exponentially more frequently to kill.

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What is the exact % of people that are killed with their own guns? Anyone? Pretty high from what I remember.

You're replaying a common myth among the anti-gunners. There was a study done by the New England Journal of Medicine in 1993 which stated that "The family gun is more likely to kill you or someone you know than to kill in self-defense." The study never actually inquired as to whose gun was used in the killing. It was all about numbers and facts manipulation to cause panic. If there was a gun in the household, and a person in that household--or someone the homeowner knew--was shot and killed in that home, the household gun was automatically blamed. The later discovered facts of the matter were that virtually all the killings the study was based on were committed with guns brought in by an intruder. Less than four percent of the gun deaths in the study could then or can be now attributed to the homeowner's gun.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[Nightingale 0]

1. I'm a democrat.
2. I'm a liberal.
3. I think most gun laws are moronic.

there's no need to make laws restricting certain kinds of guns, because the only people who are going to follow them are law abiding citizens, who pose no danger to the public because they ARE law abiding citizens. If an outlaw wants a gun, they're going to get it... and personally, I'd prefer that the outlaws not be better armed than the law-abiding general population.

[3ringheathen 0]

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So because TAP ammunition has become harder to get for civilians, my statement is less true?

I acknowledged that I'm not current on guns/ammo. It appeared that the round you were recomending wasn't normally available to civilians at all. That would make it a poor choice for a civilian!

Further, the tests compared TAP ammo to standard slugs and hollow points. As I pointed out in my previous post, you can get custom ammo such as Glaser to suit the application in a wide variety of calibers.

Assuming that there are other rounds comparable to Hornady's .223 TAP that civilians can easily and legally obtain, that point is moot.
Fair enough.

Never the less, my other point was that an AR 15 or similar weapon isn't ideal for most civilians because it's too big. Kind of awkward to conceal, put in your night stand and what not.

-Josh

If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me*
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

[skydivexxl 0]

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States that opposed a waiting period.

I really think you swallow every line the anti gunners feed you. Your logic is flawed tho.

In your humble, humble opinion...

For every study, there is another that will contradict it.

Blog Clicky

[Zenister 0]

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Sounds like you and I agree on a lot of this, but here I have to disagree. The argument that the weapon itself makes one a more efficient killer is constantly used by the anti-gun side. I remember late 2002 during the DC sniper shootings. A reporter from Fox went to a range to fire a bushmaster and was showing everyone her "almost" bullseye from 15 yds. Problem was she didn't go into minutes of angle and what that distance actually equated to at ranges of 100 yds or more.

but see the problem is it really does..it requires far more effort to kill someone with a melee weapon than a firearm. In the same way it is easier to kill with an edged weapon than a blunt one. Economy of motion and energy = efficiency. Just not in the way the anti-gun platform tries to use it.

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I also tend to disagree with the argument that shooting someone is somehow less personal than stabbing them. Just not the same. A sniper sees the face through the scope, he watches the victim fall and die. Go and talk to any combat vet sniper (or police sniper that's done the job) they'll tell you how personal it is. Handguns are the same way.. even the best trained can't take a man down over 50 yds really. Maybe you could argue "not AS personal" as an edged weapon, but it's definetly not the weapon that makes it easy to kill.

again the weapon does, when you focus on the relatively simple actions required to kill someone with a fire arm (point and squeeze, small motions of small muscle groups) vs those with a melee weapon, the mental conditioning/attitude is common to any weapon type, but if firearms weren’t more efficient we wouldn’t continue to build them, train with them and continue to improve them in the name of further efficiency, swords are still easier to make, maintain and repair...and yet no major military academy even teaches fencing anymore….

scopes DO bring it closer and so make it more personal, but short of bombing/ artillery there isnt much less directly impersonal way to end some one than aiming center mass over open sights at a small blur some 400 yds away.... a slight pause in breath and a slow squeeze......rather simple steps and simple to perform when you focus on each individual actions instead of the human cost. The distance that separates you from the tgt and the focus on each step of the process mean you dont have to think about what happens downrange, until its to late to really matter who or what you were really aiming at......

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[PhillyKev 0]

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1. I'm a democrat.
2. I'm a liberal.
3. I think most gun laws are moronic.

there's no need to make laws restricting certain kinds of guns, because the only people who are going to follow them are law abiding citizens, who pose no danger to the public because they ARE law abiding citizens. If an outlaw wants a gun, they're going to get it... and personally, I'd prefer that the outlaws not be better armed than the law-abiding general population.

And believe it or not, there are a whole lot of people with the same political leanings and same opinion. This is NOT a partisan issue. It has been made so by partisan politicians, but like abortion, both sides of the political spectrum have equal numbers of people on each side of the issue.

[mnischalke 0]

Sorry if I was abrasive. This thread is beginning to piss me off. Like talking to a wall sometimes...

I probably would not have even mentioned TAP, other than for the fact that it's the best CQB ammo out there and what I have seen tested and talked about. TAP ammunition is simply a poly-tipped varmint load with a slightly heavier bullet weight than conventional varmint ammo.

Nonetheless, full metal jacket and boat-tail hollow points will act similarly to the TAP ammunition and produce less or no overpenetration than handgun or shotgun ammunition.

Now, you and several others have said something which illustrates exactly why so-called assault weapons are far less commonly used by criminals, no matter how light and concealable some folks would have you believe they are:

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Never the less, my other point was that an AR 15 or similar weapon isn't ideal for most civilians because it's too big. Kind of awkward to conceal, put in your night stand and what not.

Exactly.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[Kennedy 0]

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School shootings, as a recent epidemic, are done by... wait for it.... GUNS!!!

Actually, the the school shootings are done by severely disturbed children. Of course, you've probably never heard of a situation where a school shooting was stopped by a citizen with a firearm, but is has happened. Appalachian Law School is the first example to come to mind.

Recent epidemic? You mean recent media coverage epidemic. School shootings have reduced in frequency much the way other violent crimes have since the 70s or so.

Something to consider when you see news coverage next time. From 1990 to 1995, the homicide rate and the violent crime rate both declined, but media news coverage of murders increased 240%. Ever hear the editors' slogan, "if it bleeds, it leads?"

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As emotionally wrenching and tragic as these senselessly violent acts are, so exhaustively are they covered by the media that false impressions about the scope of school violence are created. The week prior to the March 24, 1998, schoolyard shootings in Jonesboro, Ark., in response to a request from President Clinton, the Department of Education`s National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) released its first survey on crime in the public schools. The study showed that the incidence of crime in schools has not grown significantly during the last two decades.

In an interview with the New York Times, Edith McArthur, one of the authors of the NCES report, discussed Jonesboro. "I`m a parent, too, and you get even one of these horrible shootings and it`s scary," she said. "But it`s such a rare event that they (sic) didn`t show up at all in our study, and as a statistician, I`d have to say that there`s no data showing an increase." ("Study Finds No Big Rise in School Crime," New York Times, p. A20, March 25, 1998)

The NCES report was based on a survey of principals at 1,234 of the nation`s 87,000 public schools. The survey found that more than three-quarters of the schools had some form of anti-violence program. But only 2% have become so concerned that they had hired guards and started metal checks.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[SkyDekker 1,123]

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That's part of the problem - these suits are funded by anti-gun organizations, some of which are paid for by the billionaire owner of Monster.com.

So, the mighty NRA with all its millions, or could that even be billions and the mighty multi-billion dollar gun industry against another mighty wealthy opponent. I call that capitalism. I still don't understand your problem with gun manufacturers getting sued.

The problem might with your judicial system and lawsuit crazy society, but I guess it makes sense to make another law to try and prevent what is already flawed.

[mnischalke 0]

CNN's version of how the Pearl Mississippi school shooting was ended:

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PEARL, Mississippi (CNN) -- Luke Woodham, a 10th-grader accused of shooting to death two students at his high school and fatally stabbing his mother, pleaded not guilty Thursday to adult charges of murder and aggravated assault.

The 16-year-old, wearing an orange jumpsuit and a bulletproof vest, repeatedly clenched and unclenched his right hand at the brief arraignment...

...Also killed in the rampage was 17-year-old Lydia Kaye Drew. Mary Woodham, a 50-year-old divorced receptionist, had apparently been slashed to death with a kitchen knife, police said. Three students remained hospitalized Thursday.

Woodham was fleeing from the high school when an assistant principal rammed his car into Woodham's mother's vehicle to stop him.

CNN blatantly misrepresented the facts to suit their anti-gun stance. The truth follows:

According to Court TV:

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Prosecutors say that on the morning of October 1, Woodham beat his mother, Mary Woodham, with a baseball bat and stabbed her to death with a butcher knife while she was sleeping. Then three hours later, Woodham took a rifle, placed it under his trench coat and drove to Pearl High School. Once he arrived, Woodham pulled the gun from under his coat and unleashed a hail of gunfire that killed Christina Menefee, his former girlfriend, a classmate, Lydia Dew, and wounded seven other students. Assistant principal Joel Myrick grabbed a pistol from his car and subdued Woodham at gunpoint. According to reports, as Myrick asked Woodham why he had shot his classmates, the teen allegedly said, "Mr. Myrick, the world had wronged me."

According to the Associated Press:

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Minutes later, Assistant Principal Joel Myrick chased Woodham down outside the school, held him at bay with a .45-caliber automatic pistol he kept in his truck in the school parking lot. He forced Woodham to the ground and put his foot on the youth's neck.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[Kennedy 0]

You're entitled to your opinion, but I disagree.

So do the legislative and executive branches of 38 states, every significant manufacturing organization, the majority of the federal legislative branch, and the federal executive branch [yes, that's a fancy way to say the president].

The problem is not that people want to bring suits. The problem is that they bring them knowing they can't win, but want to inflict court costs on the industry to drive them out of business.

We can at least agree on the point that lawsuits in the US have gotten completely and utterly out of hand.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[Kennedy 0]

You know he was breaking the law because he forgot to take the gun out of his car? Good thing he's not a responsible citizen huh? I mean we all know all good people follow everysingle gun law, even though 98% of cops and lawyers can't even figure them out.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[mnischalke 0]

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So, the mighty NRA with all its millions, or could that even be billions and the mighty multi-billion dollar gun industry against another mighty wealthy opponent. I call that capitalism.

Wow, billions? The NRA? Wow! I had no idea! Where'd you find that out?

BTW, the firearms industry (including related accessories manufacturers) a combined total yearly sales figure between $2 and $3 billion. That is far from profit and does not represent only the sale of firearms.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[SkyDekker 1,123]

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The problem is not that people want to bring suits. The problem is that they bring them knowing they can't win, but want to inflict court costs on the industry to drive them out of business.

Yup and in most otehr civilized countries in the world those types of suits get thrown out of court before they cost any or at least very little money money.

[Kennedy 0]

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Never the less, my other point was that an AR 15 or similar weapon isn't ideal for most civilians because it's too big. Kind of awkward to conceal, put in your night stand and what not.

No one is suggesting any AR variant is good for concealed carry, but it IS a good choice for the home. It's light, short, has very flexible array of ammunition available, reliable, etc etc. A carbine length AR is a very effective tool. Look at what SWAT teams make entry with. They're not all holding their sidearm. They have a mix of rifle/carbines and shotguns, except for the shield bearer [he's only got one hand free so he goes in with the pistol].

I'm partial to a shotgun for the home, but regardless long guns are a far better choice than a sidearm for basically any application. The only reason for handguns to exist are (A) a back up (B) they're lighter and smaller so easier to move (C) concealability. Well, that and the sheer joy of putting rounds downrange, but that's not particular to handguns.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[Kennedy 0]

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The problem is not that people want to bring suits. The problem is that they bring them knowing they can't win, but want to inflict court costs on the industry to drive them out of business.

Yup and in most otehr civilized countries in the world those types of suits get thrown out of court before they cost any or at least very little money money.

Welcome to the world of activist judges.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[mnischalke 0]

In the Springfield, OR school shooting, two brothers stopped Kip Kinkl.

CNN got close, at least on this one, but the Rykers continually credited the NRA and the training they recieved through the NRA as the singlemost factor in their being able to end Kinkel's rampage. Unfortunately, CNN's writers and editors didn't see fit to air those portions of the interview. (Yes, I know the Rykers personally, and yes, this is exactly what they told me after the interview)

Anyway, here's part of what CNN reported:

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...In Springfield, the shootings have prompted a debate by parents over gun control. The split is evident in the blue-collar city, influenced both by the liberal leanings of the nearby University of Oregon and the more conservative ethic of rural Oregon's hunting-and-fishing crowd.

Robert Ryker, whose son Jake was wounded in Thursday's shooting spree, remains unshaken in his opposition to gun-control laws.

"It's not a gun problem," Ryker said. "This kid had real problems."

Pointing out that Kinkel broke the law by bringing guns into school and by shooting people, Ryker asked: "What's to stop a kid from breaking any new law?"

Ryker and his wife, Linda, credited their son's own familiarity with guns with helping to stop the attack before more students died. Jake knew there would be a lull in the shooting when Kinkel stopped to reload, Ryker said.

Others reached different conclusions about gun control.

"I think we ought to disarm. If this isn't reason to, what is?" asked Gary Bowden, a teacher and wrestling coach who helped tend the wounded. "I can flunk a kid and he can walk in and blow me away."

In front of Thurston High this weekend, flowers and mementos stuffed into the chain-link fence drew residents united in mourning but still divided in their opinions.

Somebody placed a pot of flowers by the fence and added a small sign with "NRA" and a red circle and slash over it -- a stab at the National Rifle Association. It wasn't there for long.

Mark Biggs, 17, angrily grabbed the sign and walked off with it.

"It's not a gun issue," said Biggs, who hunts deer, bear and rabbits with his two rifles and a shotgun. "It's a killing issue. It's sad he had a gun. But it's not a problem with guns. It's a problem with people who have guns."

You may have noticed where CNN did actually mention the NRA.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[benny 0]

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So only rednecks should be able to own guns?

That's been debated before, most reasonable people agree that ICBMs are not covered under the second amendment.

-
Jim

Yep, dere da best damn shooterx out dere. ummhumm.

And why the hell not, ICBMs are arms aren't they? Like I said you gotta draw the line somewhere (and obviously you agree with me on that), so tell me really, other than because Charlton says it is so, why the hell do you need a 30 round mag on anything?

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[SkydiverRick 0]

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School shootings, as a recent epidemic, are done by... wait for it.... GUNS!!!

The guns didn't shoot anyone. Some whacked out kids did.

Imagine if they only had rocks and sticks to throw... oh, the humanity..

[SkydiverRick 0]

Need and want are two different things. People want guns, they don't need them.

[/early morning rant]

[Kennedy 0]

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A: While there are no exact numbers of assault weapon incidents, police across America in the 1980s reported that semi-automatic assault weapons had become the "weapon of choice" for drug traffickers, gangs and paramilitary extremist groups.

There are exact numbers, they just don't want to post that the firearms covered in the AWB are used in 2% of firearms crimes.

Also, I hate to be the one to break it to them, but smugglers, gangs, etc, use FULL-AUTOMATIC firearms. Those are machine guns. The AWB covers only SEMI-automatic firearms, or one sqeeze one shot.

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In 1997, after a North Hollywood, CA shootout in which police were outgunned by two men with assault weapons

The criminals in the bank shootout were using FULL-AUTOMATIC firearms. AK-47 knock offs. The firearms covered under the AWB are SEMI-automatic AK look-alikes.

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An AK-47 fires a military round. In a conventional home with dry-wall walls, I wouldn't be surprised if it went through six of them.

The AK-47 fires a 7.62mm round, approximately .30 caliber. The .30-06, one of the most popular deer hunting cartridges in the US, is far more powerful. The US military uses a .223 caliber round. It has far less power than most hunting rounds. They shouldn't portray "military rounds" as being more powerful that ordinary cartridges. Also, I highly doubt an AK round would go through 12 layers of spaced out sheetrock [that's six walls, assuming it missed the studs].

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Police are armed with weapons that are effective with criminals in line of sight. They don't want and don't need weapons that would harm innocent bystanders

Their issued sidearm would harm innocent bystanders, if used improperly. A rifle or shotgun is no different.

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all your examples

they don't list whether the firearms used had bayonet lugs, flash suppressors, or collapsible stocks. If they did, they were outlawed under the AWB. If they didn't carry those cosmetic features, they were not banned. A rifle with the exact same action is now available without those features, and it is no more lethal than any other semi-automatic firearm.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*