Defenders of justice and human rights?

[kallend 1,623]

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Hypothetical scenario: A surgeon is performing an operation to remove a cancerous ovary in a woman. The other ovary appears to be abnormal also but they're not sure. They consult the pathologist. The pathologist calls during the surgery and says that it is in fact malignant. The surgeon's clamp the blood supply and begin the removal of the other ovary. Minutes later, the pathologist calls back and says that it's probably not. Too late. The surgeon acted on the information he/she had at the time. Time sensitive information. Decisions have to be made. You'd better make sure you've got someone in the White House that isn't afraid to make the hard ones.

How does acting on "time sensitive" information relate to incarcerating people without access to legal assistance for TWO YEARS? How does it relate to going to war after a build-up lasting several months and justifying it to the people using information known to be false? How does it relate to getting rid of the only inspectors actually on the ground in Iraq, and whose reports to the UN now look the epitome of insight compared to the crap the administration fed us?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Kennedy 0]

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I had to deal with Al-Qaeda and Taliban prisoners at a particular prison in Afghanistan. Whenever they got cocky and wouldn't answer our questions, we'd just turn them over to the Afghan prison guards. Some of the Afghan prison guards were previously tortured by the Taliban regime before we kicked them out. The afghan guards would make sure the prisoners got their attitudes back in check and then they would send them back to us.

Wonder what took place. Wonder how the prisoners got their attitudes back in check. And they were hand delivered by the U.S. I don't have to give you any sort of proof. I feel your frustration. I know you understand what transpired... I know you understand that 'washing your hands' of something does not clear you of it's moral implications.

How many times does he have to explain they were not our prisoners, that they were Afghan prisoners, and the Afghans were decent enough to let our guys question them. What happened there, if anything, was beyond US control.

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Yet your frustration blinds you such that that Jamal Udeens story means nothing to you.

And what reason do you have to be blind to the reports that prisoners don't want to leave, or reports of prisoners saying they were treated exceptionally well?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[pajarito 0]

That was in response to Kallend's hijack, "Like Rumsfeld knew what was going on when he said "We know where they are". and Bush said that Iraq could deploy its WMDs in 45 minutes...?"

I was trying to make the point that we acted on intel that we (US) and other countries had at the time.

We were on the topic of Gitmo prisoners and the war in Afghanistan. Iraq just got thrown in there in an attempt to muddy the water a little more.

[billvon 2,400]

>Too late. The surgeon acted on the information he/she had at the time.

I agree; sometimes you have to operate on imperfect information.

Now fast forward two months. The hospital says they're glad they removed the good ovary; it might have turned cancerous later. The pathologist says he's not to blame. It's no one's fault. They claim the operation was a 100% success. They have a party for the doctors involved with a banner that says "operation successful."

Would you go back to that hospital? Would you send your wife there?

It's an imperfect world made of imperfect people. Sometimes we make mistakes. If we learn from them, then we will gradually get better. If we don't, we are destined to make the same mistakes over and over. Twenty years ago we supported Saddam Hussein as he gassed the Iranians - that was a mistake. Last year we invaded Iraq because we thought he had chemical, nuclear and biological weapons - another mistake. If we admit our mistakes and move on, then we have learned and will make better decisions in the future. If we continue to claim all our actions are righteous and good because we're the biggest and meanest country out there, then we can look forward to a future of the same sort of mistakes that helped Saddam Hussein grow to be the (small) threat he was.

[pajarito 0]

I agree. Goose needs to read some prior posts. I'm getting tired of retyping.

[pajarito 0]

I'll go with that. We don't know for sure, though, that there aren't WMD. We know they had them. Just don't know where they are. We've covered that already, however. I agree, we've got to learn from our experiences.

[kallend 1,623]

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>Too late. The surgeon acted on the information he/she had at the time.

I agree; sometimes you have to operate on imperfect information.

Now fast forward two months. The hospital says they're glad they removed the good ovary; it might have turned cancerous later. The pathologist says he's not to blame. It's no one's fault. They claim the operation was a 100% success. They have a party for the doctors involved with a banner that says "operation successful."

Would you go back to that hospital? Would you send your wife there?

It's an imperfect world made of imperfect people. Sometimes we make mistakes. If we learn from them, then we will gradually get better. If we don't, we are destined to make the same mistakes over and over. Twenty years ago we supported Saddam Hussein as he gassed the Iranians - that was a mistake. Last year we invaded Iraq because we thought he had chemical, nuclear and biological weapons - another mistake. If we admit our mistakes and move on, then we have learned and will make better decisions in the future. If we continue to claim all our actions are righteous and good because we're the biggest and meanest country out there, then we can look forward to a future of the same sort of mistakes that helped Saddam Hussein grow to be the (small) threat he was.

Well, one member of the administration appears to have some integrity on the matter.

www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/02/05/iraq/main598147.shtml

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[goose491 0]

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And what reason do you have to be blind to the reports that prisoners don't want to leave, or reports of prisoners saying they were treated exceptionally well?

I'm not blind to that fact. I beleive the reports.

I also beleive the reports posted at the begining of this thread. Why does one prisonner saying he was treated well mean that we should turn a blind eye to the one that says he wasn't?

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Remster 24]

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We don't know for sure, though, that there aren't WMD

Actually, there seems to be undeniable facts proving that IRAQ had WMD:

http://www.whitehouse.org/news/2003/061303.asp

Remster

[Kennedy 0]

nothin to see here folks, show's over. move along, move along...

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

nevermind, I'm an idiot, that says whitehouse.ORG

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Gawain 0]

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how the hell did someone get that up there?!?


DAY-YUM!!!

I'm just replying with quotes so that if you decide to delete it later... ...sidekick...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Kennedy 0]

(note to self: Gawain is now nubmer two on the list, right behind ACME...)

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Remster 24]

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how the hell did someone get that up there?!?


DAY-YUM!!!

I'm just replying with quotes so that if you decide to delete it later... ...sidekick...

hehehe... dont you hate it when you comments are kept for posterity...

Remster

[Gawain 0]

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nevermind, I'm an idiot, that says whitehouse.ORG

Need to keep this one handy too.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Kennedy 0]

Stercus Accidit.
:::shrug:::

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Beerlight 0]

Fine, since everybody is evidently choosing sides. I will stand beside....Pajarito.

I also choose to support and defend. Attack my country, suffer the consequences. And god forbid, if another country attacks your country, we shall help you defend it also.........again.

Can't wait to see how my response is turned around.......

Buck

[Gawain 0]

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Can't wait to see how my response is turned around.......

In mere minutes you'll be questioning your own identity, wondering if you would be happier in France.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Shark 0]

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Time to stir the pot a little.

Flag burning again? That's a typical comment from trolls and assholes....

I was referring to that this issue has been discussed earlier and those "hard liners" were telling us that all the prisoners were hard core terrorists and did not deserve any rights. The facts as they now emerge are showing that this was maybe as much BS as the claims about WMD's. So time to re-visit the issue.

The replies of people like you and some others are IMHO much more "a typical comment from trolls and assholes..." then putting some new information up for discussion. Stick to the issues if you have anything to contribute and don't call people names.

Mickey,

You neither incite discussion, nor debate, but rather troll to provoke those with differing opinions. Then again, you probably get off on that shit.



Truth, justice and the American way.

[PhillyKev 0]

Just because someone states an opinion that differs from your's does not make them a troll. He posts to provoke thought in those with differing opinions. That's really the point of these discussions, isn't it? I participate in them not to score debating points, but in the hopes of enlightening someone else who hadn't seen things from my pov, or receiving that same enlightenment from the other side of things.

[pajarito 0]

I agree with PhillyKev. He's right on!.................Did I just say that?!!! I'm leaving.

[benny 0]

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These people are more disciplined that you might think. Many are fanatical. You don't know how long it might take to get what you want from them. This is pure speculation, though. Just because they might not have been terrorists, however, doesn't mean that they might not be valuable. Also, in reality, just because we released some of them doesn't mean that they are no longer a threat.

So, you're saying that there are a bunch of non-terrorists out there trained in how to not give up secrets, secrets that the terrorists happen to have made them privy to, despite the fact that they themselves are not terrorists? Hmm, seems a bit far-fetched to me. And, I understand it may be true that we release people who still may be a threat, sometimes because we can precipitate a bigger catch if we throw out a little bait or something along those lines. But, considering the stakes, is this really a gamble we want to take?

Secondly, I'm getting sick of this "we're at war" shit. I think the only war (Congressionally declared as per the Constitution) that we're still in is in Korea (and they've even got some sort of cease-fire at this time I think). Anyway, the whole "war" thing is bullshit. We're at war against what? A word? A non-entity, non-nation-state, non-specific person? How do you win that war? This is the wrong way to look at this problem entirely. This is not a war, it should be a continuous effort to reduce the threat of terrorism on a global scale. The question is, are we wasting our effort through the techniques we're using.

Tell me, all you gung-ho guys who love invasion, detention and interrogation, how did we stay (relatively) safe from the "terrorist" threat for the 224 years of this nation prior to 9/11?

I don't know, obviously we need to try to keep ourselves as safe as possible, however we cannot allow a general degradation of the principles which this nation was founded on in order to attempt "security". Hell, we're skydivers, we all know that you can die doing just about anything, we choose to put our lives at greater than normal risk for a few minutes of fun with our friends. The point is, I guess, we're all gonna die sometime and alot less of us would die at the hands of someone else if we'd try to increase our own and the happiness of others during the time we've got than trying to tear down.

As far as what I've done against terrorism... Well, I've never picked up a gun against a terrorist if that's what you mean, then again, I wouldn't know a terrorist if I saw one honestly, would you? What would he look like, brown skin and a turbin, or a clean cut white ex-military boy in Oklahoma, or a math professor named Ted. How to win a war you cannot win, stop fighting.

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[PhillyKev 0]

Korea was a police action. No declaration.

[benny 0]

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Korea was a police action. No declaration.

I stand corrected, thank you very much... so we're not at war at all?

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[PhillyKev 0]

You see, there's a new policy many people aren't aware of. Congressional approval is only required to declare war on abstract things. War on drugs, war on illiteracy, war on terror. If the pres wants to invade another country with US troops causing death and mayhem to both sides, he can do that whenever he wants. The next official wars will be: War on free speech (that one is brewing now), war on presidential detractors, and the war on thought.

A new department of Homeland Peace, will be created to carry out these wars. And since we will be officially at war, and constitutional restrictions or guarantees will be suspended anytime it is in the best interest of defeating the enemy, or suspected enemy, or anyone that seems like they could potentially one day become the enemy.