Defenders of justice and human rights?

[mikkey 0]

Time to stir the pot a little.

The number of prisoners released from Guantanamo has been substantial in recent time – not that the US media is dwelling much on this. The interesting facts that are becoming more and more clear are:

1) A substantial number of people held in Guantanamo are either totally innocent bystanders or “fringe” supporters of the Taleban.
2) The treatment of the prisoners (especially when you take into account that many seem NOT to be “top-operatives” of Al Qaeda) is unacceptable for a country that proclaims to be the bastions of human rights and legal fairness.

The below is an article from the BBC about a British prisoner released after 2 years without any charges. He was actually arrested by the Taleban under suspicion of being an US spy and then taken by the US to GB.

What has happened at GB seems to be connected to the total lack of legal due process. I can not understand that a country with such strong tradition for the rights of the individual and due process can accept that such a large number of people - who are either innocent or only involved at the “fringe” - can be treated like this for years.

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Guantanamo Briton 'was tortured'

One of the five Britons released from Guantanamo Bay claims US guards at the camp in Cuba tortured and abused him.

Jamal Udeen has told the Daily Mirror he went to Pakistan to study Muslim culture but was taken prisoner after straying into Afghanistan by mistake.

The US, which denies claims of bad treatment at the camp, held him as a terrorist suspect for two years.

Mr Udeen, 37, from Manchester, said he was beaten by men in riot gear after refusing to have a mystery injection.

'Psychological torture'

He said the guards had tried to get prisoners to confess to things they had not done. They were shackled and attached to metal rings on the floor during interrogation, Mr Udeen claimed in the newspaper. But he said: "The beatings were not as nearly as bad as the psychological torture - bruises heal after a week but the other stuff stays with you. "The whole point of Guantanamo was to get to you psychologically. "

A spokesman for US Southern Command in Miami, told BBC News Online: "We do treat the detainees in a fair humane way, according to the Geneva Convention."

The US transferred Mr Udeen to the UK on Tuesday, saying he was a low risk. But Mr Udeen, a father-of-three, said inmates were kept in wire cages with concrete floors and no protection from the elements.

He claims water to the cells was often cut off before prayers so Muslim prisoners could not wash themselves as their religion instructs them to. He told the Mirror their "recreation" time involved being untied and allowed to walk up and down a strip of gravel. "They actually said: 'You have no rights here'. After a while, we stopped asking for human rights - we wanted animal rights."

Mr Udeen, who is from the Moss Side area of Manchester, said he was chained up and interrogated by the CIA and FBI on 40 occasions and that later MI5 officers also questioned him.

US bombing

Mr Udeen told the newspaper: "They would say: 'Are you a terrorist?' I'd say 'no, get me out of here'." The web designer, who converted to Islam when he was 23, said his nightmare began four days into his trip to a region of Pakistan on the border of Afghanistan.
When the US began bombing Taleban strongholds he decided to leave and Mr Udeen said he paid a local truck driver to take him to Turkey - not realising the route would take him through Afghanistan.

He said he was initially arrested by the Taleban as a suspected spy but, when the Americans arrived, US soldiers took him to a "concentration camp" before being moved to Cuba. Mr Udeen said he had agreed to tell his story to the Mirror to highlight the plight of those still being held at the camp.

Another story about the treatments of other prisoners:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3509750.stm

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[freeflir29 0]

I suppose we should have given them all an ice cream and tried to win their friendship.



STFU........They are lucky they made it out of wherever all they were captured alive and not executed on the spot.

[Jimbo 0]

That might work if it's Ben and Jerry's ice cream.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[freeflir29 0]

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That might work if it's Ben and Jerry's ice cream.

Ya think? I would much rather give them an ice cream than shoot them. However, I have NO problem shooting them......

[piisfish 135]

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Defenders of justice and human rights?

just an interpretation of the meaning...

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[AdD 1]

Can they sue the US gov't or something? I fucking would.

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[freeflir29 0]

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Can they sue the US gov't or something?

Did I bring up the fact that they are lucky their corpse isn't rotting already yet?

[pajarito 0]

Yeah...let's base our opinions on what the detainees and the BBC has to say. What a freakin joke. The BBC was a constant liability to us in the field.

I had to deal with Al-Qaeda and Taliban prisoners at a particular prison in Afghanistan. Whenever they got cocky and wouldn't answer our questions, we'd just turn them over to the Afghan prison guards. Some of the Afghan prison guards were previously tortured by the Taliban regime before we kicked them out. The afghan guards would make sure the prisoners got their attitudes back in check and then they would send them back to us. Believe me...the prisoners at Gitmo had to have it much better than the ones being held elsewhere. Let's not be so quick, especially while we're at war, to turn on our country. We have a long way to go before it's over.

Screw those bastards. I'm worried about our own guys. Not those shitheads at Gitmo.

[pajarito 0]

Sorry, I see you're from Austrailia. My comment about "let's not turn on our country while we're at war" wouldn't apply to you. I worked with a British SAS team with a few Australian guys attached. Damn good group of guys. You're not all bad!

[freeflir29 0]

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You're not all bad!

Australian chicks are the POOP!!!!!!!!

[mikkey 0]

Interesting replies here. Mostly : "They are not Americans so we don't give a shit...." Ever wondered why anti-US sentiment is growing around the world?

In regard to this post:

Firstly: “The BBC was a constant liability to us in the field.” Why is this? Did the BBC look into issues where you guys might be breaking your own laws as well as international conventions?

Secondly, if "pajarito" is who he claims to be and his story is right, then he just admitted that US forces in Afghanistan did violate international conventions by torturing their prisoners. Handing them over and let surrogates (locals) torture them is no excuse. I assume that the actions were also a violation of US military and civilian law. Interesting....

Thirdly: “Screw those bastards. I'm worried about our own guys. Not those shitheads at Gitmo.” Well that assumes that “pajarito” knows everyone of those prisoners and knows that they are guilty of serious crimes. I just wonder why so many of them then are being released without charge? If people are pre-judged and can be treated in any way seemed fit – where are the values the US armed forces are supposed to be protecting? Is there one set of rules for Americans and another one for the rest of the world?

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[tunaplanet 0]

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The interesting facts that are becoming more and more clear are:

I've heard the media claim Bigfoot was real. I've even seen "pictures."

Guess if the media says it's true it must be, right?

Better have AggieDave look it up on Snopes. That will surly settle this debate once and for all.

Forty-two

[freeflir29 0]

You obviously haven't "been there" and I'll leave it that. It's easy to sit in your nice little safe world and armchair quarter back. Quit trolling!

[Kennedy 0]

(A) what have you done to deter or prevent terrorism?

(B) do you have any first hand experience with any kind of combat?

(C) The BBC has often been the most anti American news source out there aside from Al Jazeera.

(D)

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1) A substantial number of people held in Guantanamo are either totally innocent bystanders or “fringe” supporters of the Taleban.

And just what is making this so clear to you?

(E)

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2) The treatment of the prisoners (especially when you take into account that many seem NOT to be “top-operatives” of Al Qaeda) is unacceptable for a country that proclaims to be the bastions of human rights and legal fairness.

On whose words? The detainees? Yeah, because prisoners never bitch about conditions without being totally accurate.

(F) When did anyone other than you bring up citizenship? I imagine they would feel the same if American citizens had turned on the US and were fighting against it.

(H) Where exactly did parajito say anything about torturing prisoners?

You seem more than willing to presume a great deal and infer more than is said. Do us all a favor and just read what's written, not what you want to see there.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[indyz 1]

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Quit trolling!

I think he has a legitimate opinion. I also think your initial response ("STFU") is immature at best and a personal attack at worst.

[mikkey 0]

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It's easy to sit in your nice little safe world and armchair quarter back

I actually agree with that to a point. I know enough people who have "been there" in many different scenarios over many decades even back to WW2 to understand that "shit happens". I do however not sympathise with points of view promoting brutality and violation of rules as the MO that should be followed.

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Quit trolling!

??? So people who disagree with you are trolls? Maybe you should look in the mirror instead.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[pajarito 0]

As to what the rest of the world thinks of us, I could “personally” give a shit. But that’s just me.

The BBC had no business being where they were and doing what they were doing in an unconventional warfare environment. That’s all I’ll say about them. If you like them, great. I don’t. Take it for what it’s worth.

It was their prison, their prisoners, their rules, their people. They simply allowed us to be there, ask questions, and record data. We broke no laws whatsoever. Military or civilian. The rest of the world is just a much worse place than you’re used to within the borders of your sheltered civilized country.

Those detainees were picked up during war. I hold our guys in much higher regard than those who were affiliated with the Al-Qaida terrorists. You can only guess as to why some of them are being released. Those are operational decisions that are being made based on information you’re not privy to. If that pisses you off, well then, so be it. We had to release some very dangerous prisoners in Afghanistan because we simply didn’t have the resources to hold them indefinitely. These are people that flat out told us to our faces that they would attack and try to kill more Americans as soon as they were able. I hope you sleep well at night defending bastards like that. The United States has done nothing against the Geneva Convention or broken International Law.

[Michele 1]

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So people who disagree with you are trolls?

No. Perhaps it's this from your first post which left that impression. I know it did for me...

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Time to stir the pot a little.

No inference, reading between the lines, or SWAGing needed to understand what your intention is.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[pajarito 0]

I'm out now, by the way...so I can say what the f%ck I want. Baaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!

[mikkey 0]

Replies in italic

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(A) what have you done to deter or prevent terrorism?

AnswerWhat have you done and what does this have to do with the issue being raised?

(B) do you have any first hand experience with any kind of combat?
A: does that include crocodiles? still not relevant in regard to the principal question.

(C) The BBC has often been the most anti American news source out there aside from Al Jazeera.

A:Can you document your claim? Facts would be nice.

(D)

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1) A substantial number of people held in Guantanamo are either totally innocent bystanders or “fringe” supporters of the Taleban.

And just what is making this so clear to you?

AnswerI have been following the news - prisoners have been released with no charges over a longer period now - this does include young boys who were 14 years old when shipped to Git. Do your own research.


(E)

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2) The treatment of the prisoners (especially when you take into account that many seem NOT to be “top-operatives” of Al Qaeda) is unacceptable for a country that proclaims to be the bastions of human rights and legal fairness.

On whose words? The detainees? Yeah, because prisoners never bitch about conditions without being totally accurate.

A: Again, I refer to the fact that a substantial number of prisoners have been released without charges. It must be reasonable to asume that they are innocent or small fish.The accounts of the released prisoners are all similar.

(F) When did anyone other than you bring up citizenship? I imagine they would feel the same if American citizens had turned on the US and were fighting against it.

A: This is a key point. None of the prisoners are US citizens (AFAIK). The one they captured in Afghanisatn was brought to the US and enjoyed the priviliges of the US legal system.

(H) Where exactly did parajito say anything about torturing prisoners?

You seem more than willing to presume a great deal and infer more than is said. Do us all a favor and just read what's written, not what you want to see there.

Can you get to any other conclusion after you read: " I had to deal with Al-Qaeda and Taliban prisoners at a particular prison in Afghanistan. Whenever they got cocky and wouldn't answer our questions, we'd just turn them over to the Afghan prison guards. Some of the Afghan prison guards were previously tortured by the Taliban regime before we kicked them out. The afghan guards would make sure the prisoners got their attitudes back in check and then they would send them back to us."

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[slug 1]

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You obviously haven't "been there" and I'll leave it that. It's easy to sit in your nice little safe world and armchair quarter back. Quit trolling!

Hi Freeflir

Sorry I have to agree with you. "Don't judge me until you've walked a mile in my shoes".

There were more people killed on 9/11 than in the attack on Pearl Harbor. The situation we're in now is war just a different kind of war.

We learn from some of our past mistakes. This time we haven't rounded up all men women and children from the middle east even US citizens that are living in the US and moved them into relocation centers.

In the US the gov't isn't profiling certain groups, their hassling everyone.

The "cold War" is over, the iron curtain is gone, we just have another challenge that we have to take care of.

R.I.P.

[mikkey 0]

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The BBC had no business being where they were and doing what they were doing in an unconventional warfare environment

Does the word "unconventional" relate to that normal rules of engagement were not adhered to? I still wonder why you were so upset that media from an allied country was looking over your shoulder. Got something to hide?

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It was their prison, their prisoners, their rules, their people. They simply allowed us to be there, ask questions, and record data. We broke no laws whatsoever. Military or civilian

Sounds different then your original account. : "Whenever they got cocky and wouldn't answer our questions, we'd just turn them over to the Afghan prison guards. Some of the Afghan prison guards were previously tortured by the Taliban regime before we kicked them out. The afghan guards would make sure the prisoners got their attitudes back in check and then they would send them back to us. "

I was not there so I have to take your word for it. But based on your original account I would say you broke the rules.

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Those detainees were picked up during war. I hold our guys in much higher regard than those who were affiliated with the Al-Qaida terrorists.

Me too, but you are assuming that everybody picked up during the war automatically was affiliated with Al-Qaida. Based on recent events and the release of the prisoners without charge I can not assume this. Why do you assume that ALL of the Gitmo prisoners are terrorists?

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We had to release some very dangerous prisoners in Afghanistan because we simply didn’t have the resources to hold them indefinitely.These are people that flat out told us to our faces that they would attack and try to kill more Americans as soon as they were able.

I really would like some more detail. So you had the resources to send 14 year old kids to Gitmo and hold them for 2 years (before released without charge) but you had no resources to hold "very dangerous prisoners" and released them. This makes no sense to me. Please explain.

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I hope you sleep well at night defending bastards like that.

I am not defending them. I am defending the application of human rights, the law and the right to due process.

You guys give any serial killer (including the Oklahoma bomber) in the US greater rights and access to the protection of the courts then any of the prisoners in Gitmo. If all of them are very dangerous terrorists why some of them being released without charge?

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[sundevil777 93]

Guantanamo a good time?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,113823,00.html


Another young Afghan boy is saying that -- contrary to complaints from Human Rights Watch -- he had a wonderful time as a detainee in Guantanamo Bay. Fourteen-year-old Asad-ullah, who spent 14 months there, says -- "I am lucky I went ... and now I miss it. ... Americans are great people."

Asad-ullah, now back at home in the eastern Logar Province, says he spent his days watching movies, playing football, and going to class -- where he was fascinated by lessons on the solar system. As for his future, he tells London's Guardian -- "I would like to be a doctor, an engineer, ... or an American soldier."

edited to fix link

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[ltdiver 3]

Cliff,

They took your web site listing away!

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[mikkey 0]

This is old news and was reported a month ago:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3488175.stm

An Afghan boy has told the BBC he feels no bitterness about being held in the US Guantanamo camp for terror suspects.
More than a year after being captured by US troops fighting members of the Taleban and al-Qaeda, Naqibullah, 13, is back home in eastern Afghanistan.

He spent much of his time in captivity in Camp Iguana, the children's section of the US detention centre on the tropical island of Cuba.
……..
Unlike most of those in Guantanamo Bay, he was not forced to wear an orange boiler suit, or shackled and hooded. In fact, apart from the two other boys released with him, he says he saw no other detainees.
…….

and
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3450687.stm

Three Afghan boys freed last week from US custody in Cuba are back home with their families.
The boys - thought to be aged between 13 and 15 - were the youngest detainees at the controversial Guantanamo base.
They were suspected of fighting with the Taleban against US-led forces which invaded Afghanistan in 2001.
The boys' detention without trial was attacked by human rights groups - one of them is thought to have been only 11 when arrested.
The BBC's Andrew North in Kabul says the Red Cross, which helped re-unite the boys with their families, has been keen to avoid drawing publicity to their return.
The boys are still minors and there are fears of reprisals against them.
"They were in good form," General Baba Jan, Kabul's police chief, told Reuters. "They said they were kept in a separate cell from the elderly inmates and were allowed to play and have fun."

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(underline are mine)

So the conditions were clearly different for the kids.

Now can somebody please explain to me:

1) If Gitmo is only holding dangerous Al-Qaida terrorists - why did they have a children’s department??????

2) It seems clear that those boys were running around with Taleban fighters - but why in hell were they sent to Gitmo? And why did it take such a long time to return them. What does it say about the whole process??

3) One poster who served in Afghanistan was telling us that they were releasing dangerous people who threatened to kill Americans because they could not hold them but at the same time there was capacity to fly 11 year old kids to Gitmo??

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.