Defenders of justice and human rights?

[pajarito 0]

In reference to: Does the word "unconventional" relate to that normal rules of engagement were not adhered to? I still wonder why you were so upset that media from an allied country was looking over your shoulder. Got something to hide?

It has nothing to do with the “rules of engagement.” Those were followed to the letter. It has everything to do with the nature of the war and how it had to be fought. We had problems with all media in the region. In general, they don’t understand and don’t appreciate the secretive nature of our business.

In reference to: The treatment of the prisoners.

I won’t tell you where but this has nothing to do with Karsi’s government in Kabul. I’m talking about tribal law. I’m talking about tribal justice. I’m talking about being under the protection of warlords. It’s a different world that doesn’t fit into your pretty little box of rules. We did nothing wrong. I don’t really care if you believe me or not. You weren’t there.

In reference to: Me too, but you are assuming that everybody picked up during the war automatically was affiliated with Al-Qaida. Based on recent events and the release of the prisoners without charge I can not assume this. Why do you assume that ALL of the Gitmo prisoners are terrorists?

Where are you getting your information? The BBC? You really have no idea as to the real details of why their being released. You just read from the newspapers what they think or have been told. Like I said before. You’re not privy to the real details, you won’t be, nor should you be. Believe what you will but they’ve got their reasons for doing what they’re doing.

In reference to: I really would like some more detail. So you had the resources to send 14 year old kids to Gitmo and hold them for 2 years (before released without charge) but you had no resources to hold "very dangerous prisoners" and released them. This makes no sense to me. Please explain.

I’ve seen younger boys than that carrying rifles and RPG’s. The age of 14 may seem odd to you because you don’t know any better but, in real life, it’s not uncommon. As to our reasons for doing what we did, you won’t get any more details.

In reference to: You guys give any serial killer (including the Oklahoma bomber) in the US greater rights and access to the protection of the courts then any of the prisoners in Gitmo. If all of them are very dangerous terrorists why some of them being released without charge?

Timothy McVeigh was a citizen of The United States and deserved due process no matter what he did. That in no way compares to the detainees at Gitmo. They simply are not US citizens and have no right whatsoever to our judicial system.

[indyz 1]

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Timothy McVeigh was a citizen of The United States and deserved due process no matter what he did. That in no way compares to the detainees at Gitmo. They simply are not US citizens and have no right whatsoever to our judicial system.

The right to due process is a basic human right. Check the Universal Declaration of Human Rights if you don't believe me.

[pajarito 0]

That does not mean that everyone in the world has rights to our United States judicial system.

[indyz 1]

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That does not mean that everyone in the world has rights to our United States judicial system.

If they are in our custody it does.

[pajarito 0]

Not under the circumstances that they're being held at Gitmo.

[pajarito 0]

It's after midnight here fellas. I'm signing off till tomorrow. Later.

[mikkey 0]

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It has everything to do with the nature of the war and how it had to be fought. We had problems with all media in the region. In general, they don’t understand and don’t appreciate the secretive nature of our business.

Point taken. Still don't understand why you dislike the BBC more then other media.

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I won’t tell you where but this has nothing to do with Karsi’s government in Kabul. I’m talking about tribal law. I’m talking about tribal justice. I’m talking about being under the protection of warlords. It’s a different world that doesn’t fit into your pretty little box of rules. We did nothing wrong. I don’t really care if you believe me or not. You weren’t there.

A mentioned before, I have to take your word for it. But your original account did sound different. You said you were handing them over because they did not answer your questions and that the Afghans would "adjust their attitude" and then send the back. But I take your word for it.

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Where are you getting your information? The BBC? You really have no idea as to the real details of why their being released. You just read from the newspapers what they think or have been told. Like I said before. You’re not privy to the real details, you won’t be, nor should you be. Believe what you will but they’ve got their reasons for doing what they’re doing.

I am sorry but this is a cop out. You guys are holding people for 2 years without access to lawyers or anything and put pressure on. Then you release them without charge. This must mean that you have no evidence whatsoever that they are guilty of terrorist activity.

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I’ve seen younger boys than that carrying rifles and RPG’s. The age of 14 may seem odd to you because you don’t know any better but, in real life, it’s not uncommon. As to our reasons for doing what we did, you won’t get any more details.

Well, one was even only 11. Still - did you send every goddamn Taleban fighter you caught to Gitmo? No. Are we being told that the prisoners are Al-Qaida terrorists - yes. You must excuse me, but a young boy running around with some tribal fighters carrying an RPG is not enough of a threat to Global security to sent to Gitmo IMHO. It seems that it was quite random who ended up in Gitmo and who did not (again referring to the dangerous people you say you had to release because you could not hold them).

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Timothy McVeigh was a citizen of The United States and deserved due process no matter what he did. That in no way compares to the detainees at Gitmo. They simply are not US citizens and have no right whatsoever to our judicial system.

Not correct - every PERSON prosecuted by the US legal system has the same rights. In Gitmo you are bypassing your own constitution. It is the first time that the US is applying a legal process (especially invented for the purpose) without giving people the rights. There are many US legal experts who think the US administration is more then bending the US constitution and the principal issue is still before the courts.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[tunaplanet 0]

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There are many US legal experts who think the US administration is more then bending the US constitution and the principal issue is still before the courts.

I wasn't going to get into this debate (and still won't), but here goes.

I believe Freeflier would agree with me here that following the rules to the letter of the law sounds great on paper, but it's a practice only good in theory. People like to think they're safer in a country that follows all the rules all the time and dots every i and crosses every t.

Let me break it down to you like this. This country, like every other country out there is guilty of breaking the rules. It is neccessary. Let me repeat that. It is absolutely fucking neccessary for our military and certain units to break the law for the purpose of good for the endgame.

I have no idea what Freeflier did in the military but I have some educated guesses. I can probably speak for the both of us when I say that there are military units out there that do some pretty fucking sick and terrible things for God and Country (please for the love of God do not turn this into a religeous thread. God and Country is a term we use in the military). There are US units out there who are ordered to break the law. Ordered to break international rules and regulations. It's an ugly game, but a very neccessary game.

If anyone out there is shaking their head in response to me saying that we have units that break the law for the purpose of overall good...well...you are living your life with blinders on. If it makes you feel safe to sit in your cozy house and believe that our military are paladins riding the white horses into battle fighting the evil dragons as they stop occasionally and throw down their jackets over the puddles for the women to cross and never committing any evil acts themselves then so be it.

If you want to believe that victory can be accomplished by always following the rules...then you have your head up your ass. The terrorists and other countries out there who wish to do us harm don't play by the rules. To win, you have to stack the deck in your favor. You have to win at all costs. You have to take rules and regulations at times and throw them right out of the proverbial window.

Sometimes you have to dance with evil in order to live with good.

Sorry, Freeflier, for using you specifically, but it irks me that some people who have not "been there done that" jump on people who have as we did and make uneducated remarks.

Forty-two

[indyz 1]

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I believe Freeflier would agree with me here that following the rules to the letter of the law sounds great on paper, but it's a practice only good in theory. People like to think they're safer in a country that follows all the rules all the time and dots every i and every t.

Following the Constitution should be optional in certain situations? Surely you can't be serious.

What was that oath you swore when you joined the Navy? "I, Joe Schmoe, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same;"

[tunaplanet 0]

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Following the Constitution should be optional in certain situations? Surely you can't be serious.

I am dead fucking serious.

Forty-two

[billvon 2,396]

>You have to win at all costs.

I don't think so. We have finally come to understand that there are some wars we should not fight, some battles we should not try to win. It was better to not win in Vietnam than to "win" a nuclear exchange with the USSR. It worked out better in the long run; fewer cities vaporized, fewer americans dead. To me it's a sign that we are finally growing up and realizing that there is such a thing as a pyrrhic victory, and it's not the kind of victory we want.

[Gawain 0]

You revel in pointing your cross-hairs this way. The Red Cross has visited Gitmo and has not reported anything of consequence as it relates to the physical treatment of the prisoners there (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s964594.htm). They complained about the "open-ended" incarceration.

Meanwhile, the honorable Jamal Udeen you cited, is getting paid £60,000 for the interview with the Mirror (http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanamo/story/0,13743,1167404,00.html).

When the dust settles in Spain, despite their most recent elections, will you begin to criticize their actions which will most certainly not be solely diplomatic, in the wake of their own "11"? Personally, I hope their sharpening their bull's horns for some action.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[freeflir29 0]

OK....so we should have NOT interefered and left them to "Local" "Tribal Law." What would have happened to them then? I say once again. STFU.

[Gawain 0]

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OK....so we should have NOT interefered and left them to "Local" "Tribal Law." What would have happened to them then? I say once again. STFU.

You mean me? I think we're on the same side of the issue....

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[freeflir29 0]

No no....I just responded to the last post. I'm fairly shit house anyway!

[Shark 0]

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Time to stir the pot a little.

Flag burning again? That's a typical comment from trolls and assholes....

[Cudlo 0]

As for the prisoners rights. They do have rights. They weren't randomly executed now were they? A terrorist suspect in military custody appearing before a military tribunal has a very different set of rights than average joe american. And if you really feel the need to protest the wars in Iraq/Afgahn I wouldn't bring up enforcement of the Universal Decleration of Human Rights. Because if you actually wanted to force everyone to play by those rules, we'd have to perform Diplomatic/Legal/Military action against any nation using Islamic Law. Read through the complete list of rights (i thinkits on one of the UN websites or reports) and see how many rights that are violated by Islamic Law (most of them last time i checked). On another note. Anyone remember after 9/11, many people for inexplicable reasons were enraged that our Intelligence community (which of course receives nothing but trillions of dollars and support from the government every year *snicker*) didnt see it coming. Now people get upset when we detain people and question them... go figure.

_________________________________________
"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard

[mikkey 0]

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Time to stir the pot a little.

Flag burning again? That's a typical comment from trolls and assholes....

I was referring to that this issue has been discussed earlier and those "hard liners" were telling us that all the prisoners were hard core terrorists and did not deserve any rights. The facts as they now emerge are showing that this was maybe as much BS as the claims about WMD's. So time to re-visit the issue.

The replies of people like you and some others are IMHO much more "a typical comment from trolls and assholes..." then putting some new information up for discussion. Stick to the issues if you have anything to contribute and don't call people names.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[mikkey 0]

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The Red Cross has visited Gitmo and has not reported anything of consequence as it relates to the physical treatment of the prisoners there

The article says: "physical conditions" not "physical treatment " (e.g. during interrogation) quite a difference. A visit would not be able to judge that - would it. Also note: "unusually blunt public statement " - the Red Cross does normally not criticize in public.

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Meanwhile, the honorable Jamal Udeen you cited, is getting paid £60,000 for the interview with the Mirror (http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanamo/story/0,13743,1167404,00.html).

I have not called him honorable - has anybody? I do not know if he is innocent. I just know he was released without charge after 2 years and that he (and others) are making serious accusations (read the article). If you had been detained for 2 years and released would you not try to make some money? I could imagine he might need it.

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When the dust settles in Spain, despite their most recent elections, will you begin to criticize their actions which will most certainly not be solely diplomatic, in the wake of their own "11"? Personally, I hope their sharpening their bull's horns for some action.

At this stage it is not even totally clear if this was done by ETA or Al-Qaida. If it was Al-Qaida then it seems that Gitmo has not had quite the effect it was supposed to - has it? I doubt detaining 14 year old boys broke the back of Al-Qaida. Actually there are numerous indications (as discussed before in this forum) that the treatment of the prisoners (which is in stark contrast to any American criminal/terrorist) is only stirring anti-US feelings in the Muslim world and might just help Al-Qaida recruit support.

(Just to be clear - I am happy to see any Al-Qaida terrorist detained, tried and even executed. I just don't like the rule of law compromised and "bystanders" sacrificed. The goal does not always justify the means. )

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[pajarito 0]

Most of the prisoners were captured by the former Northern Alliance (our “allies”; term used lightly). Many are very lucky to be alive at all. One group of them was captured and transported via a large metal connex on the back of a truck to the prison on a journey that took several days (by troops of the local warlord; not us). Many inside literally cooked to death from exposure. Now, they’re rotting away in this prison. Estimated 50% have tuberculosis. Treatment is not good. But like I said, this is not our prison, our prisoners, our responsibility to take care of and protect them. It’s under the control of a warlord. We were just allowed to question them as much as we wanted because we’re in good with the warlord. In unconventional warfare, you sometimes have to deal with people that might not fit your ideals in order to accomplish the mission. Gitmo would be an island paradise compared to this place. I’m not telling anything in this that hasn’t already been printed by the media, by the way.

As far as your emotional pity for the detainees at Gitmo, we’re in the middle of a war. Two years to be held captive during war is nothing. This war in Afghanistan is likely to last much longer. People back here and over there apparently forget that it’s still going on. Our guys are getting wounded and killed all the time. If the detainees fit the criteria of POW, things might be somewhat different for them. But they don’t. Still, they are being treated humanly. Not like other countries we’ve been at war with who held our POW’s. You seem to be hung up on the young ages of some of the detainees. Like I said before, it’s foreign to you to think of a 14 year old as a combatant. That is reality, however. You have no idea what intelligence that kid might hold or have held. You have not idea why he was released. It could be that some were released because they got whatever they were looking for out of them already and that’s all they were after. Who knows? Some there might not be terrorists. They might know who is, however, and where they are. They might know what their future plans might be due to their “affiliation” with the terrorists. Again, who knows? You’re not supposed to know.

In reference to: every PERSON prosecuted by the US legal system has the same rights.

They aren’t being prosecuted. They are being held and interrogated. Again, we’re at war for crying out loud.

[Luv2Fall 0]

Pajarito's a man who has been there and has a better understanding and insight as to what's going on there...................far better than most of us here.

[pajarito 0]

It's an ugly world Robert.

[PhillyKev 0]

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I had to deal with Al-Qaeda and Taliban prisoners at a particular prison in Afghanistan. Whenever they got cocky and wouldn't answer our questions, we'd just turn them over to the Afghan prison guards. Some of the Afghan prison guards were previously tortured by the Taliban regime before we kicked them out. The afghan guards would make sure the prisoners got their attitudes back in check and then they would send them back to us. Believe me...the prisoners at Gitmo had to have it much better than the ones being held elsewhere. Let's not be so quick, especially while we're at war, to turn on our country. We have a long way to go before it's over.

See...that's proof positive that we don't treat prisoners inhumanely. We just let someone else do it for us. We are the defenders of justice and human rights, for sure!!!

And there's a difference between speaking out against policies that you don't agree with, and turning on your country. At least in non-authoritarian states there's a difference. Too bad this is looking like less and less of one every day.

[pajarito 0]

You need to go ahead and join the other side dude. (not meant as a personal attack; I mean that in the nicest possible way.)

[PhillyKev 0]

Because I want to see all humans treated humanely, I should join the other side? I don't think so. The other side is a bunch of cowardly murderers. I don't want to be on that side. And I don't want us to become that way, either.

If you think that torture and abuse are the way to do things, then you're the one who needs to join the other side.