Katana Safety Question

[Scooter1812 0]

Serious question:

My friend wants to buy my Katana 170. He is 175 lbs with just over 1000 jumps, but on nothing eliptical. He normally jumps a 170 Sabre. I've never hear of anyone loading a Katana with such a low WL. I know on a Sabre it's fine but how about on a Katana??

I guessing it should fly ok just a little slow, right?

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

The manufacturer indicates that wing loading as "not suggested". See this link for more:

http://www.performancedesigns.com/products.asp?product=ka

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[tdog 0]

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The manufacturer indicates that wing loading as "not suggested". See this link for more:

http://www.performancedesigns.com/products.asp?product=ka

Where does it say not suggested???? The chart is the MAX, not MIN for any experience level...

[tdog 0]

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Serious question:

My friend wants to buy my Katana 170. He is 175 lbs with just over 1000 jumps, but on nothing eliptical. He normally jumps a 170 Sabre. I've never hear of anyone loading a Katana with such a low WL. I know on a Sabre it's fine but how about on a Katana??

I guessing it should fly ok just a little slow, right?

I loved my KA170. I was 200 pounds... It opened great, landed great, and was sporty... I think your friend should demo it... If he likes his Sabre, he should love the KA's openings and landings....

[dragon2 0]

We had a katana 150 here and most of the people who jumped it were ~175 exit weight. Openings were SLOW and due to that prone to being "interesting". Once it was open, no problem. Just one canopy, but it seems it didn't like that low WL very much.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[flipper 0]

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We had a katana 150 here and most of the people who jumped it were ~175 exit weight. Openings were SLOW and due to that prone to being "interesting". Once it was open, no problem. Just one canopy, but it seems it didn't like that low WL very much.

+1 on the low WL openings

[riggerpaul 1]

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The manufacturer indicates that wing loading as "not suggested". See this link for more:

http://www.performancedesigns.com/products.asp?product=ka

Where does it say not suggested???? The chart is the MAX, not MIN for any experience level...

Just to elaborate on tdog's comment, if you read the PD "Wing Loading Interpretations" document, you will understand that what is "not suggested" for the Katana is use by pilots at the Student, Novice and Intermediate levels. The Katana is recommended for pilots of Advanced or Expert levels of experience.

The Wing Loading Interpretations document is clear that there may be a variety of consideration associated with jumping a canopy at a lower wing loading, but that a low wing loading in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing.

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If the manufacturer does not list a specific minimum exit weight for that canopy, there is no technical basis for saying the canopy is "under loaded." As with any other wing loading, there will be advantages and disadvantages.

Some mention that the Katana openings at low wing loadings are not optimal.

It may well be that packing the canopy more carefully, and/or in a manner to encourage quicker openings, will be needed.

The PD wing loading chart for the Katana says that use by pilots with insufficient experience is "not suggested".

That is not a statement about use at lower wing loadings when being flown by pilots of Advanced or Expert experience.

[piisfish 135]

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That is not a statement about use at lower wing loadings when being flown by pilots of Advanced or Expert experience.

but they also say that you should be very current and have sufficient skills in canopy piloting to fly an advanced canopy.
www.performancedesigns.com/docs/W-L_Interpretations.pdf

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[AggieDave 6]

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Serious question:

My friend wants to buy my Katana 170. He is 175 lbs with just over 1000 jumps, but on nothing eliptical. He normally jumps a 170 Sabre. I've never hear of anyone loading a Katana with such a low WL. I know on a Sabre it's fine but how about on a Katana??

I guessing it should fly ok just a little slow, right?

The real question is why? Typically when people are jumping something that is that high performance at such a low wingloading, its more of an ego boost then a need or ability for a high performance canopy.

At that light of a wingloading someone is really better served by a canopy designed for that type of flying, like a Sabre2 or a Storm.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

I misread chart.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[tdog 0]

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The real question is why? Typically when people are jumping something that is that high performance at such a low wingloading, its more of an ego boost then a need or ability for a high performance canopy.

At that light of a wingloading someone is really better served by a canopy designed for that type of flying, like a Sabre2 or a Storm.

Why not... I have yet to read a document by PD that says the Katana must have high wingloading and must be flown balls to the wall... I found the larger KA at 1.35 WL to fly great, open great (although not recommended I have a lot of wingsuit jumps on it), be super reliable, hang well with other canopies in brakes, but at full flight have some pizzazz....

Just because someone wants to trade in their pickup truck for a sports car, does not mean they have to buy the meanest, badest, largest engine, sports car out there...

If someone has 1000 jumps on a 170 Sabre and wants to add a touch of sportiness, it might be a good fit, especially if their container is not suited to a smaller sabre.

Disclaimer: What I said in a previous post (to demo one), and in this post, is said because the person has 1000 jumps and should be able to know if they are ready for a change and should be able to judge for themselves in a demo if the canopy is a good fit.

[riggerpaul 1]

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but they also say that you should be very current and have sufficient skills in canopy piloting to fly an advanced canopy.
www.performancedesigns.com/docs/W-L_Interpretations.pdf

I never said anything different.

I mentioned Advanced or Expert experience twice in my post.

The original question related to a person with 1000+ jumps.

That person should be capable of deciding if his skills are up to it.

My point was that it is not about a "too low" a wing loading, as some have mentioned.

[piisfish 135]

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Just because someone wants to trade in their pickup truck for a sports car, does not mean they have to buy the meanest, badest, largest engine, sports car out there....

when you need to drive your sportscar with flat tires do drive slower, you solve the problem, but not in the best way.
But you still have a cool looking sportscar

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Scooter1812 0]

The reason this person wants to switch to a Katana from his current 170 Sabre is to do air/air video and stills. He tried it on the Sabre and had brutal openings. One of which put him out of commision for 2 weeks. So the hope is that the Kanata will open softer (which I know it does, under my WL). The real question is will it open under 1:1 WL (well). This guy is a good jumper and doesn't swoop.

[piisfish 135]

given the conditions, a Safire2 would be better

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[flipper 0]

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given the conditions, a Safire2 would be better

or a Spectre / Storm / Sabre 2 / XF2 etc etc etc etc

[piisfish 135]

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given the conditions, a Safire2 would be better

or a Spectre / Storm / Sabre 2 / XF2 etc etc etc etc

not in my opinion.
A spectre : why not, but the flight will be very different
A Storm : Maybe, I don't know the canopy
A Sabre 2 : good openings ? maybe, but certainly not close to a safire
A XF2 should be more loaded.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[LouDiamond 1]

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The reason this person wants to switch to a Katana from his current 170 Sabre is to do air/air video and stills. He tried it on the Sabre and had brutal openings. One of which put him out of commision for 2 weeks. So the hope is that the Kanata will open softer (which I know it does, under my WL). The real question is will it open under 1:1 WL (well). This guy is a good jumper and doesn't swoop.

It's a double edged sword. While it may provide for softer and slower openings due to the WL, it will also pose a potential problem for your friend if he has any issues such as a spinning canopy or an emergency involving his camera helmet. Even at that size, the Katana can pick up speed and lose altitude fairly quickly when in a spin/dive.

From what you have told us, it sounds like letting your friend demo your canopy for a few jumps might be the better way for him to determine if it will work to his liking or not. As far as WL goes, I don't see it being a big issue as he is at around 195-200lbs for exit weight but I do think he will need to be aware of having to fly this canopy conservatively for awhile until he can learn it's flight characteristics compared to his current canopy.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[tdog 0]

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when you need to drive your sportscar with flat tires do drive slower, you solve the problem, but not in the best way.
But you still have a cool looking sportscar

I don't think flying a larger katana is like taking the air out of the tires on a sports car. I think it is more like someone opting to purchase a sporty but utilitarian SUV instead of a minivan to transport the family around town... Something still practical for every day jumps, but with a bit of sport to have fun. Forgiving when needed, fun when appropriate.

There are many people out there who don't want to be huge swooper allstars, but still enjoy a responsive, quick, fun canopy to fly with lots of range.

[wildcard451 0]

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There are many people out there who don't want to be huge swooper allstars, but still enjoy a responsive, quick, fun canopy to fly with lots of range.

So get the tool for the job. Something like a Saf2, Sab2, even a XF2 would all be good choices.

A Katana is still trimmed rather steeply (on par with the velo, if not the same, if my memory serves me) and will lose altitude rapidly in full flight alone. If you aren't going to swoop the thing, why get a canopy that even at lighter WL can still have the complications of the more highly loaded ellipticals? The openings on my 150 at 1.6 were sporty.
Also, not exactly a canopy I would say that has a lot of "get home" from a long spot if you get hung out doing tandem video, I mean it can, but you're working more than the other canopies discussed.
Good, soft openings, stable, yet still with some zip to it....sounds like the XF2 169 I had, but I loaded a little heavier at 1.4ish.

jmho, worth about what you paid for it.

[Scooter1812 0]

Thanks guys for all the help. After reading all the responses I'm going to insist that he makes at least 3 jumps on it with no camera. High openings so he can play a bit and find the stall point. I know that there are probably other better choices but this might fit the bill.

thanks again

[P-dro 0]

It's funny how some people have definitive opinions on canopy they have not flown.
A Katana at "low" WL can be very pleasant for someone with some experience.... Maybe not the best choice indeed for video, but it can be preferred to more classical choices such as Sabre 2 (Katana opens better and is more fun if you know what you're doing)

Topic covered in this thread:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3154580

[SimonBones 1]

I also find that many high performance canopies flown at low WL tend to be more prone to problems in wind turbulence than a lower performing canopy at low WL or an HP canopy at higher WL.

HP canopies like the Katana and XF tend to close off the nose more for decreased drag but may then require a bit more speed to keep it safely pressurized (which comes from higher WL). At low WL, these canopies have less speed and therefor may have more trouble staying pressurized in turbulence.

I believe this is another reason why canopies like Katana and XF are more recommended to be flown at higher WL. This is where the general improvement in opening characteristics comes from with higher WL as well.

Sure you could fly them at lower WL, but why not use the right tool for the right job? You could potentially be saving yourself from canopy collapses and spinning malfunctions.

108 way head down world record!!!
http://www.simonbones.com
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[phoenixlpr 0]

Than why to hell to choose a HP elliptical canopy designed for swooping and flying high wing loads?

If its PD and PD only why not sticking to Sabre2, Pulse or Storm? They open better and those could be right on the performance envelope.

[AggieDave 6]

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The reason this person wants to switch to a Katana from his current 170 Sabre is to do air/air video and stills. He tried it on the Sabre and had brutal openings. One of which put him out of commision for 2 weeks. So the hope is that the Kanata will open softer (which I know it does, under my WL). The real question is will it open under 1:1 WL (well). This guy is a good jumper and doesn't swoop.

In that case I highly recommend that your buddy demos a PD Storm. That canopy opens very well and flies very well. I like to compare it to a 7-cell Sabre2 that opens better then a Spectre!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."