Clouds make spotting impossible

[DeepC 0]

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Please feel free to name the DZ in question, so that others can avoid a joke of a student program.

Skydive city Z-Hills. I was surprised; they get regular write-ups in the skydiving magazines. People actually come from all over the world to jump there and love it. It is a great place for veteran skydivers, but in my opinion the student program is a shambles. I know some of the other students there and some like it--some don't. The ones who like it don't mind completing the program on there own. I prefer a structured program with guidance. It is an inherently dangerous sport and I would prefer to be walked through my training and taught how to be safe and do it right. I'm not saying I'm a scared little whimp. I'm just saying I want to learn it right and not get any bad habits or do stupid things because I don't know any better. I read the SIM and ask the "C" and "D" people questions, but get very little instructor time.

[DougH 270]

So are you a student, or a disgruntled employee. Both are possible from my vantage point.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[DeepC 0]

Yes. You're right I'm a disgruntled employee.

I created a fake online persona, asked a question about skydiving in clouds, steered the conversation through GPS and all other topics with the sole purpose of slamming a DZ three days later after twenty some odd posts.

Get Real!!!

I asked a simple question. I answered other peoples questions. And like most conversations it grew and went it's own direction.

[stratostar 5]

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Skydive city Z-Hills.

Having trained a number of Private clients/students at that dropzone and having delt with not only the mangement and most the fulltime staff who have been there a number of years now, I find your claim a tad hard to beleive that you signed up for AFF progression and were handed a SIMS and an A licence proficiency card and told to fill it out without hands on training from staff.

I do beleive that you might mistake the fast paced tempo of such a large dz as not getting "a structured program with guidance" or "very little instructor time.

I can tell you from first hand experiance over a number of years that the staff on the dz do care about safety and teaching students how to skydive with guidance and hands on instruction.

Your right people come from all over the USA and the world to teach and to learn how to skydive. This is one of the most accommodating large dropzones anywhere in the USA to visiting instructors who bring their student there to jump. I have spent a huge amount of time watching how this dz works with their students while there training my own students, ths staff bent over backwards to make sure we had any and all needs met, from classrooms and training tools to equipment all free of charge and they were quick to stop all jump Op's in high winds or even broken overcast skies, quick to ground those who did not follow the rules of the swoop pond or traffic patterns, regardless of who they were/are.

If you really feel that your being left short changed or not getting the instruction you need or are paying for, I would advise you to make your concerns known to TK Hayes in a polite manner, I have always found him to have an open door policy and a willingness to talk and hear concerns of those on the dz. In order for you to have the best chance to not be in a fast pace when speaking with him, you might want to make an appointment during the week to meet with TK, he is a very busy person as is his staff, due to volume alone not because they aren't getting paid to help you.

It just so happends that you choose to learn at one of the worlds largest dz's and the winter time Oct. to May is the busy season there and even the weekdays are a mad house at best.

Sometimes jumping through a cloud will happen, sometimes jumping above an overcast will happen, but 90% of the times I have been to skydive city the planes stayed parked during low solid overcast skies.
Sometime the shit moves in on you though, it's still your choice to jump or not.

If you take the time to speak with TK and still feel that your not getting the personal attention you need or are paying for there are always smaller dz's with in driving distance that might be more suited to your style of learning. Go speak with TK and good luck in your learning where ever you jump, it's should be never ending as long as your skydiving.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[NWFlyer 2]

Here's the deal with Z-Hills. I think that it's the kind of DZ where the "powers that be" would be really happy to hear direct feedback from you rather than have it come out first on DZ.com. Have you tried sitting down with the S&TA or someone in a leadership role in the student program there? (I honestly don't know who is in that role at Z-Hills since I've only been there as an up jumper). But I do know that when I last visited Z-Hills I made a point of introducing myself to TK on my way out, and telling him what a great time I had and how I thought he had a great DZ. He looked me in the eye and said "Thanks. Let me know if I ever fuck it up, okay?" So I think you're definitely dealing with a DZ that is open to hearing from its customers.

If you're feeling lost in the shuffle, let someone know who can do something about it. I know a few folks from Z-Hills who occasionally post on here, but to really make something happen, an open and honest discussion is probably going to be more productive.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[rwieder 0]

I can't believe this conversation. Yeah, clouds do make spotting impossible, industrial haze, as it were. What did you learn in FJC? What does it say in the FARS?

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[Jumpah 0]

In the interest of playing devil's advocate:

Instructors are mostly sub-contractors of the DZ, so they get paid only when the client is paying. Maybe it seems like its rude that they are chasing the money, but they got bills too...and its not always sunny out. I work on computers for a living...it wouldn't work to do the repairs for free all the time.

In some DZs the DZs instructors will follow an AFF student right through to getting their A...free advice, etc...its part of the AFF "package". If you are meeting all new instructors and coaches (not sure if you are), then I can see why they aren't spending much time with you. If these are the same ones who walked you through AFF, well, I'm not sure what to think about that.

Anyway, when I had 12 jumps I went to a big FL DZ far away from my home DZ. I told manifest I wanted to hire a coach for a few jumps over a few days. They got me in touch with an instructor who is still there today. I showed him my card, told him what I wanted to do, and we mapped out a plan. I did the first jump with him and on the ground he gave me the next few things I was to do on my subsequent jumps. I went and solo'd and did them, then we did another jump and worked on the next batch, and so on....right to my hop and pop when he went out with me. I tipped him like $60 for the three jumps on top of paying the coach jump prices.

Good luck!

[DougH 270]

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I created a fake online persona, asked a question about skydiving in clouds, steered the conversation through GPS and all other topics with the sole purpose of slamming a DZ three days later after twenty some odd posts.

Hey it is an honest question, you wouldn't be the first one.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[DeepC 0]

Okay, sorry Doug. I shouldn't have taken so much offense.

But really I was just asking about my decision to jump the clouds. People were asking about my instructors so I answered. I only named the DZ because someone asked point blank.

Z-Hills really is a nice place with many facilities and a lot to offer liscenced jumpers--I was only saying I didn't like the training program.

To those who told me about TK Hayes-thank-you. I will try to find him. I didn't really know how the place was managed or who was in charge.

To the guy who said it was hard to believe. Believe it. I have no reason to make it up, or exaggerate.

To the guy who said he couldn't beleive I aked the question about the clouds. Hey it's a legitimate question. I was told in AFF 1 don't go through clouds, and don't go if you can't spot the DZ. Then I watched a plane full of liscenced skydivers and instructors do those very two things. I'm a newbie, I found it confusing and wondered what is the right thing to do.

So thank-you all for your input--at this point I think I have the answer I needed.

[Butters 0]

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The pertinent word here is "known". Non-local transient pilots are unlikely to know there's a DZ there, and these days most pilots are using GPS navigation and none of the GPS databases show drop zones.

Very, very, very true! We've had plenty of pilots fly over our DZ. (This is a definitely a concern for me when I begin wingsuiting.)

Maybe, but those jackasses aren't necessarily on GPS. Our DZ is offset a major interstate by about 2 miles. Dr-CessnaPiper, the weekend pilot is just flying along parallel to the interstate and looking out his left window while using the road map. Puts him right over head of the DZ.

I know. But the point remains ... if there are clouds beneath you there might also be planes beneath you.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[rehmwa 2]

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But the point remains ... if there are clouds beneath you there might also be planes beneath you.

Yes, and even more unnatural things we can't see. Lately, late April weekend, snow.

actually my comment goes back to Kallend's.

Fixing the GPS databases to show drop zones will likely have minimal effect on flyovers. At least the flyovers we get.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[tombuch 0]

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But really I was just asking about my decision to jump the clouds. People were asking about my instructors so I answered. I only named the DZ because someone asked point blank.

Z-Hills really is a nice place with many facilities and a lot to offer liscenced jumpers--I was only saying I didn't like the training program.

To those who told me about TK Hayes-thank-you. I will try to find him. I didn't really know how the place was managed or who was in charge.

You have raised some good points, and identified some important issues that we should all consider regarding how we handle students at our own drop zones. It's sometimes tough to see our own drop zone through the eyes of a student. I’m guessing that TK will learn something about his operation in this thread, and that he will use your feedback to strengthen his program. Z-Hill has an outstanding reputation, and TK does have an interest in quality instruction. I’m betting he will be sorry you fell through the cracks, and will be running around with a tub of Bondo filling those cracks post-haste.

Ed Scott (Executive Director of USPA) has an interesting column in the new Parachutist Magazine in which he talks about school rituals that followed the first freefall back in the day when static line was the norm. Even back then we had huge DZ’s where students could get lost in the flow. The achievement of the first freefall was a point to rally the troops and welcome the new skydiver. It was a point at which a student left the crowd, and was welcomed under the collective wing of the skydiving community. We seem to have lost that point in our training, and would do well to find a similar milestone today. That point should include an introduction to the key players on the DZ, and an overview of how to access all the resources that are available.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[billvon 2,405]

>Yeah, clouds do make spotting impossible, industrial haze, as it were. What did you learn in FJC?

This is an interesting point. I don't cover clouds in the FJC beyond "we don't jump through them, if we go through accidentally it's no big deal." I do this because learning to arch is far more important to an FJ student than the FAA cloud clearance limits. (IMO)

That stuff falls into what I call 'the training gap.' When I taught at Brown, I covered all that stuff either unofficially on later jumps or 'officially' at the water training course, since I had everyone sitting there with no interruptions for a few hours.

Nowadays we have the ISP, but often instructors following the ISP don't have one place to teach a lot of the advanced stuff. (i.e. "how to use a hookknife in a wrap" etc.) Maybe it would be helpful to have a second course taken before graduation (or even shortly afterwards) to cover all the additional stuff that skydivers should know, but isn't really appropriate in the FJC.

[marcandalysse 0]

It is rare for the plane to take off when there is thick cloud cover, unless for hop n pops. But it certainly happens that by the time the plane is at 13.5K clouds might roll in. It is also possible that when the first ones out exited they had a clear view of the DZ that you didn't have by the time you got to the door. Either way, you did know better, and you could have stayed on the plane.

In any case, if there were instructors onboard behind you, they would have given you advice and helped you spot. Same with your learning progression past AFF. You have to make the effort to talk to your coaches and ask for help, they won't come to you.

I highly recommend doing more coach jumps, yes they cost more but then you have someone as a point of reference who can debrief you about your experience on the skydives. There are some incredible coaches at ZHills, and the more you interact with them the more they can advise you.

Please actively seek out and talk to the instructors, your fellow students and low time jumpers, and go over to the experienced skydivers and introduce yourself. ZHills in the summer is definitely more laid back, especially on weekdays and it will be easier to communicate.

See ya there!
Marc

"The reason angels can fly is that they take themselves so lightly." --GK Chesterton

[ElJosh 0]

In Reply To
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If everyone else was playing russian roulet with a full clip, you would play too?


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Um that game does not work well with a clip.


~El Josh AKA Ruby

DS #149
Yes I only have 3 jumps...it's the magic number dude.

[rehmwa 2]

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If everyone else was playing russian roulet with a full clip, you would play too?
.
.
.Um that game does not work well with a clip.

it does if you go last

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[stratostar 5]

Uh, those 6 guys just blew their heads off, uh, let me try......

Uh those ten guys just jumped over the top of the solid clouds, let me try.... (see B-25 load)

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Do a search on the B-25 load and Lake Erie in the early 70's

Actually 1967. I was a kid. You were a grandpa by then, weren't you?

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Um that game does not work well with a clip.


~El Josh AKA Ruby

Exactly his point.

[Mockingbird 0]

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Maybe it would be helpful to have a second course taken before graduation (or even shortly afterwards) to cover all the additional stuff that skydivers should know, but isn't really appropriate in the FJC.

I like this idea (and not just because you had it, Bill

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[tkhayes 128]

I just picked up this thread and a few folks have it right. "If I ever fuck it up, please let me know." I am part owner, the manager, generally there most days and actively involved in the student programs. I work in the office, in the planes, I do jumps (not as many as I would like) and I just spent the entire weekend working with two students on radio for accuracy and canopy work. I regularly help students with their yellow cards, brief them on various things to do and I think my staff does exactly the same.

As for being handed a bunch of tickets and then left alone - I really doubt that it went that way. You cannot jump at our dropzone 'alone'. Just to get a rig or an altimeter, you would have to ask someone on staff to get that for you. That is the time to ask about what your next step should be if you are in doubt.

So anyway, I do not want to get defensive, but the program is not directed by us necessarily. You have to participate in that as well. If you have a question, then ask.

Yes, you have a card to get filled out, but it is perfectly OK for you to march up to ANY staff member and say "What should I be doing on this jump?" And I tell every student to do just that. If the instructors do not give you the time of day, then you tell me and I fix that. Some days we are very busy and time is short.

If you arrive Saturday at 3pm, no, you will not get much attention. If you arrive Saturday at 8am, I have a dozen instructors that are sitting around doing nothing and would be very willing to help out with all kinds of stuff.

If you want to be directed by a personal coach, we also sell that package too, it is called the 'gold package', costs $3600 for the A license, and includes a lot more coaching and video and we will indeed hand-hold you through your license. We do not sell too many of those.

Also try to find an instructor that you like. If you 'click' with someone, we do not have a fixed rotation and you can ask to work with one person in particular. That person will give you their email or telephone so you can call them ahead of time to let them know you are coming and they will be there to work with you.

Bottom line is that you probably fell through some crack. I would like to fix that. Call me at the dropzone or email me directly [email protected] and I will sort that out for you.

As far as jumping through the clouds, some days the clouds are just building and spotting is difficult. Sometimes we go up to have a look and if it is reasonable, then we go.

No one has a measuring tape out to see if we are violating FARs, but in 12 years of running the dropzone, I have only ever once had the FAA give us flack for jumping through a cloud.

Does it happen? Sure. Do we ignore the rule? Definitely not. Most of the experienced jumpers will not even get out if the clouds play havoc. And as a student, I would MOST DEFINITELY comp your ticket if you rode the plane back down. The experienced jumpers sometimes too, but less often - they should know better before they even get in the plane.

Hopefully you get in touch. thanks

TK

[DougH 270]

Top notch TK!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[DeepC 0]

Thank-You very much TK. I'll come talk to you next time I'm there.

[DeepC 0]

TK,

I do understand the unpredictability of FL weather. I do know that the pilot and DZ would not purposely violate the FAR's.

I was only asking: What should I do? What should I have done? What do I do in the future?

No I am not experienced in skydiving. From my point of view with a door window seat, and looking out before jumping: I do not believe that any of the jumpers could have seen the DZ before they jumped or while they jumped. I do know that I couldn't and didn't. That's why I asked the original question.

I was just trying to learn and get better and not kill myself. I am sorry things went as far as they did. I tried to explain the situation in the original post and hope people understand that the DZ did nothing wrong in flying this load.

I only wanted to know if I did something wrong in jumping it. Thank-you for letting me know I could have gotten a refund, but my first concern should have been my own life. Not a few bucks.

I guess I was also concerned about what people would have said if I rode the plane down. Again, I should only care about my life. Other concerns should be trivial in comparison.

[fallfast69 2]

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I just picked up this thread and a few folks have it right. "If I ever fuck it up, please let me know." I am part owner, the manager, generally there most days and actively involved in the student programs. I work in the office, in the planes, I do jumps (not as many as I would like) and I just spent the entire weekend working with two students on radio for accuracy and canopy work. I regularly help students with their yellow cards, brief them on various things to do and I think my staff does exactly the same.

As for being handed a bunch of tickets and then left alone - I really doubt that it went that way. You cannot jump at our dropzone 'alone'. Just to get a rig or an altimeter, you would have to ask someone on staff to get that for you. That is the time to ask about what your next step should be if you are in doubt.

So anyway, I do not want to get defensive, but the program is not directed by us necessarily. You have to participate in that as well. If you have a question, then ask.

Yes, you have a card to get filled out, but it is perfectly OK for you to march up to ANY staff member and say "What should I be doing on this jump?" And I tell every student to do just that. If the instructors do not give you the time of day, then you tell me and I fix that. Some days we are very busy and time is short.

If you arrive Saturday at 3pm, no, you will not get much attention. If you arrive Saturday at 8am, I have a dozen instructors that are sitting around doing nothing and would be very willing to help out with all kinds of stuff.

If you want to be directed by a personal coach, we also sell that package too, it is called the 'gold package', costs $3600 for the A license, and includes a lot more coaching and video and we will indeed hand-hold you through your license. We do not sell too many of those.

Also try to find an instructor that you like. If you 'click' with someone, we do not have a fixed rotation and you can ask to work with one person in particular. That person will give you their email or telephone so you can call them ahead of time to let them know you are coming and they will be there to work with you.

Bottom line is that you probably fell through some crack. I would like to fix that. Call me at the dropzone or email me directly [email protected] and I will sort that out for you.

As far as jumping through the clouds, some days the clouds are just building and spotting is difficult. Sometimes we go up to have a look and if it is reasonable, then we go.

No one has a measuring tape out to see if we are violating FARs, but in 12 years of running the dropzone, I have only ever once had the FAA give us flack for jumping through a cloud.

Does it happen? Sure. Do we ignore the rule? Definitely not. Most of the experienced jumpers will not even get out if the clouds play havoc. And as a student, I would MOST DEFINITELY comp your ticket if you rode the plane back down. The experienced jumpers sometimes too, but less often - they should know better before they even get in the plane.

Hopefully you get in touch. thanks

TK

Wow, just wow...especially the part about comping the students ticket...good on you and your DZ
Jon