Vector Reserve Pilot Chute Video

[piisfish 135]

Quote

You're right, I don't know him. My bad here.

any solutions you peeps could suggest?

1 : google search : john sherman parachute , it might help give you an idea.

2 : sit back, enjoy the ride. The manufacturers have got more experience in manufacturing parachutes than most of us DZ.commers. At least more than me and you put together. It's a good thing to get education about your gear, but there is no need to create polemics or panic moves at our level

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[SethInMI 146]

Just in case anyone else does not know, there are two industry giants who have posted in this thread.

1. Bill Booth. Founder/Owner of United Parachute Technologies, the maker of the Vector container.

2. John Sherman. Founder/Owner of Parachute Labs, the maker of the Racer container.

Both men have been designing, building and selling parachute equipment longer than I have been alive and I am 37 years old. They both are intelligent engineers and have vast amounts experience.

They are also salesmen and long time competitors, so keep that in mind.

It's flare not flair, brakes not breaks, bridle not bridal, "could NOT care less" not "could care less".

[Gary73 8]

Some valid points above, but for me the bottom line is that I have six or seven reserve deployments with Vector pilot chutes and they all went just fine, both high-speed and low. (Five were Vector Tandems, at my old dropzone, namely not my pack jobs, so no comments about packing lessons, please!)

Also, as a rigger, I appreciate the very low pack volume of the no-mesh design. Some manufacturers seem to be going for maximum volume, what with unnecessary vanes, high-bulk mesh (the kind that looks like chicken wire), and long sections of material between the bridle attach point and the bottom of the spring. All that would be fine if that was necessary to get a good deployment, but it's not, so what good is it?

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

[rtroup 1]

What the video fails or neglects to show is how a meshed reserve pilot chute works without the added burble of 2 instructors. It has great footage of a meshed pilot chute deploying with the burble of three people.

So what get from the video is that the mesh-less pilot chute may be a better option for AFF students. It doesn't show me how it is a better option for licensed jumpers who deploy without two people holding on to them.

Also doesn't show comparative video of a mesh pilot chute deploying after a break away using the same parachutes used for the tests shown.

I'm not arguing over which pilot chute is better but i do agree with those who say the video is just marketing.

(insert philosophical quote here)

[Sangi 0]

Yeah I figured that much, already did google him before reading this reply, thanks anyway

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[Rstanley0312 0]

Quote

Quote

not saying that John Sherman is right or wrong, but do you know who he is ?
He might have the background to analyse and give opinions on technical problems and solutions.
At least he has some credibility in the domain.

You're right, I don't know him. My bad here.

Anyway, I have a Micron on order and since this a very disturbing topic, should I be worried about this reserve PC problem (what exactly is the problem, doesn't the PC work properly, is it prone to extreme hesitation?), if I should, any solutions you peeps could suggest?

You have a Micron on order? I know you meant an M series bc that would mean you are going to jump a small main and a small reserve with not many jumps?

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[Halfpastniner 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

not saying that John Sherman is right or wrong, but do you know who he is ?
He might have the background to analyse and give opinions on technical problems and solutions.
At least he has some credibility in the domain.

You're right, I don't know him. My bad here.

Anyway, I have a Micron on order and since this a very disturbing topic, should I be worried about this reserve PC problem (what exactly is the problem, doesn't the PC work properly, is it prone to extreme hesitation?), if I should, any solutions you peeps could suggest?

You have a Micron on order? I know you meant an M series bc that would mean you are going to jump a small main and a small reserve with not many jumps?

Dude, he can't be cool if it doesnt say micron on the side.

BASE 1384

[Beatnik 2]

Quote

1. Lots of instruments designed to measure with scientific accuracy are only in metric units as that is the unit of science. In the 80's, a digital altimeter with documented scientific accuracy might have been only available from the scientific market?

While that is great you are talking about scientific accuracy. This video doesn't have it. Since most things in the US aren't metric and certainly weren't then, I doubt a metric altimeter was the only thing around. My point is still that using something that it outside what is normally done can be misleading and I am sure made some people look again.

Quote

2. The conversion from feet to meters has zero fudge factor. You can convert with 100% accuracy of the measurement. Whatever accuracy, (significant figures/digits, in scientific terms) of the metric measurement can be converted with absolute precision to feet, as we know exactly how many feet are in a meter.

Anytime you are converting something there can be rounding errors and limited to the accuracy of the instruments used. Saying it has zero fudge factor is like saying the sun isn't bright. Sure you can convert all you want but do you round up at .49 or round down. Any one who works with numbers a lot knows there is things that can get fudged.

Quote

3. Last I checked, UPT (back then RWS), sold internationally, and thus had to market, test, document, and sell using both metric and English systems... Booth could have decided all testing would be in Meters for certain products, or he could have made this video for European customers and recycled it for North American, or countless other reasons...

In those countless reasons could be to also have an edge and use what people expect to their advantage. I am not saying it is here but your statement just gives another possibility. It really doesn't give a concrete reason. But to give what you said a fare chance, we should have the history of sales in that era cause saying you checked when it was RWS is vary vague and could have been right before the change.

[pchapman 262]

I think the alti in the old UPT video is a European paragliding one; probably at that time not switcheable over to feet from meters. Just a guess though.

As for reserve pilot chutes, they all generally work, but it is interesting to go through some of the issues that they have.


Here's a short video I shot last winter:
http://blip.tv/file/3487904

It shows a spring loaded Vector pilot chute used on a main, getting caught in a jumper's burble. Of course this is only one single point of data. But it shows that a spring loaded pilot chute, with a good spring like the Vector one, can hesitate in the burble of just a single jumper.

The meshless design doesn't help it as it bounces around. However, when it does pull the bridle taut, it catches air while on its side, as the design is supposed to.

It is 1.37 seconds from pack opening to a taut bridle. Not ridiculous but certainly a delay.

[skydiverek 58]

Quote

I think the alti in the old UPT video is a European paragliding one; probably at that time not switcheable over to feet from meters. Just a guess though.

As for reserve pilot chutes, they all generally work, but it is interesting to go through some of the issues that they have.


Here's a short video I shot last winter:
http://blip.tv/file/3487904

It shows a spring loaded Vector pilot chute used on a main, getting caught in a jumper's burble. Of course this is only one single point of data. But it shows that a spring loaded pilot chute, with a good spring like the Vector one, can hesitate in the burble of just a single jumper.

The meshless design doesn't help it as it bounces around. However, when it does pull the bridle taut, it catches air while on its side, as the design is supposed to.

It is 1.37 seconds from pack opening to a taut bridle. Not ridiculous but certainly a delay.

I think a meshed PC would behave even worse in the same burble.

[Beatnik 2]

Quote

I think a meshed PC would behave even worse in the same burble.

Based on what?

[skybeergodd 0]

I have no clue who you are or what your credential are, but two blaringly obvious things stand out about your posts. #1. You obviously have some aerodynamic background and know the math needed to reach an empirical answer ...and #2(here's the biggy!!!) Not a single person here posting has attempted to dispute you, and that says more than anything because some of these knuckleheads will dispute everything.

All I can say is thanks for the info. I'm a master rigger and you've taught(and given me some great info) me a few things about drag and openings. Keep the info flowing!!

[skydiverek 58]

Quote

Quote

I think a meshed PC would behave even worse in the same burble.

Based on what?

Based on the fact that a meshed PC does not inflate on its side, so in such dificult position (on its side) the meshless PC behaves better (one half of it collapses into another, creating a hemisphere).

I believe that in such difficult burble/scenario, the meshless PC is better, ALL OTHER THINGS EQUAL (same burble, same launch angle, same hesitation)

So, the situation was bad, but it probally it would have been worse with a meshless PC. The "solution" to hestiation (PC goes up to bridle stretch) happens faster with a meshless PC, I believe.

[Beatnik 2]

Quote

Based on the fact that a meshed PC does not inflate on its side, so in such dificult position (on its side) the meshless PC behaves better (one half of it collapses into another, creating a hemisphere).

I believe that in such difficult burble/scenario, the meshless PC is better, ALL OTHER THINGS EQUAL (same burble, same launch angle, same hesitation).

A pilot chute with mesh and without act differently. Just because in this situation it took the pilot chute to inflate on its side doesn't mean that one with mesh would do worse or need to inflate on its side. Taking information from how one piece of equipment works and trying to base it on another is not going to give you a reliable answer.

I was interested in why you felt that it would do better and was wondering if you had thought of something or had some information that wasn't apparent. You would have to take in all the factors. Saying the same burble, same launch angle, same hesitation doesn't really make the point. What if another pilot chute had a stronger or weaker spring, the launch would be different. The hesitation could be caused by the pilot chute design. This is just a few things.

I don't know which one is better. But saying that this one inflated on its side therefore it is better doesn't mean a thing. Sure a meshed pilot chute doesn't do that but does it need to? I really want to get some real independent data to do a comparison. There are a lot of factors that people are messing up and transferring to another situation and coming to a conclusion. This is not a good way to come to a conclusion about things. Factors that affect one don't necessarily affect another. I would really like some real data to start appearing in stead of feelings.

[JohnDeere 0]

Quote

I would really like some real data to start appearing in stead of feelings.

Thats funny coming from someone putting so many feelings in the same argument.
Its clear you have something against Vector and/or Bill.
Then he put this

Quote

I think a meshed PC would behave even worse in the same burble.

Then you argue every point but that Your really good at arguing just for the sake of it!

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[Rstanley0312 0]

Quote

Quote

I would really like some real data to start appearing in stead of feelings.

Thats funny coming from someone putting so many feelings in the same argument.
Its clear you have something against Vector and/or Bill.
Then he put this

Quote

I think a meshed PC would behave even worse in the same burble.

Then you argue every point but that Your really good at arguing just for the sake of it!

and he jumps a Racer.... its seems like this is just coming from the Racer folks. Just an observation.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[riggerrob 561]

Let's keep springs out of this discussion.

We should focus on pilot chute canopy configuration and limit discussion to all-fabric Vector 2 pilot chutes versus everything else.

My take on this whole debate is that Vector 2 pilot chutes look weird, but work well.

What is the next topic for debate?

[NovaTTT 1]

Quote

Its clear you have something against Vector and/or Bill.

I don't know if that's true or not, and I don't speak for Jim, but what I take away from his (Beatnik's) postings is that he would like to see data derived from an empirical study of the full range of pilot chute dynamics and aerodynamics.

It might be a matter of scrutinizing minutiae, but as there are fatalities (even if statistically few) associated with poor reserve PC deployment and freebag extraction I think it's a valid point for research.

Who wouldn't? The problem is there is no-one or organization that is going to conduct such a study. It's expensive and the results might be negative toward manufacturers.

Quote

RStanley:
and he jumps a Racer.... its seems like this is just coming from the Racer folks.

Jim is a connoisseur of vintage gear. Did you notice the other rigs mentioned in his profile? Did you notice they're listed before the Racer? Do you know he jumps the old stuff more than anyone or any of his other gear?

Have you noticed Racers are not part of this PC issue? Have you ever jumped a Racer? Inspected a Racer?

The V3 is a good rig, but did you buy for style or function?

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[riggerrob 561]

" ... Who issues the TSO? The FAA? They're the ones who could pull a TSO, or call for a redesign, so they would be only ones with an interest in conducting the testing. I don't see that happening anytime soon, ....

[Beatnik 2]

Quote

and he jumps a Racer.... its seems like this is just coming from the Racer folks. Just an observation.

I also jump a Wonderhog and a Vector II. That doesn't get entered into the equation does it.

There are people who have never seen my Racers and others who haven't seen me under a square parachute. I am not a die hard Racer fan like you are making me out. I just want real information before coming to a conclusion.

[Beatnik 2]

Quote

Quote
I would really like some real data to start appearing in stead of feelings.
Thats funny coming from someone putting so many feelings in the same argument.
Its clear you have something against Vector and/or Bill.
Then he put this

Quote
I think a meshed PC would behave even worse in the same burble.

Then you argue every point but that Your really good at arguing just for the sake of it!

I have nothing against Bill or Vectors. I own a Vector and a Wonderhog. If I was against it that much I wouldn't have them.

What I want is people to actually bring real data to this argument and not go on feelings or opinions. Feelings or opinions mean nothing when trying to prove whether this whole thing is valid. Critical thinking on this matter is what should be done instead of jumping to conclusions.

[Rstanley0312 0]

Quote

Quote

Its clear you have something against Vector and/or Bill.

I don't know if that's true or not, and I don't speak for Jim, but what I take away from his (Beatnik's) postings is that he would like to see data derived from an empirical study of the full range of pilot chute dynamics and aerodynamics.

It might be a matter of scrutinizing minutiae, but as there are fatalities (even if statistically few) associated with poor reserve PC deployment and freebag extraction I think it's a valid point for research.

Who wouldn't? The problem is there is no-one or organization that is going to conduct such a study. It's expensive and the results might be negative toward manufacturers.

Quote

RStanley:
and he jumps a Racer.... its seems like this is just coming from the Racer folks.

Jim is a connoisseur of vintage gear. Did you notice the other rigs mentioned in his profile? Did you notice they're listed before the Racer? Do you know he jumps the old stuff more than anyone or any of his other gear?

Have you noticed Racers are not part of this PC issue? Have you ever jumped a Racer? Inspected a Racer?

The V3 is a good rig, but did you buy for style or function?

I bought for function and comfort. It has nothing to do with how the Vector looks. Does it look better than a Racer? I do not even have to answer that do I?

I just noticed the "newer" rig is a racer so that's why I said he jumps a racer. I have also recived PM's from Racer folks basically saying my Vector is a death trap. Not from Beatnik so I'm sorry if it seemed I was just refering to him bc I was not. He is at least discussing everything he just happens to jump a racer also so my apologies for that.

P.s. yes I have jumped a racer.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[Rstanley0312 0]

Quote

Quote

and he jumps a Racer.... its seems like this is just coming from the Racer folks. Just an observation.

I also jump a Wonderhog and a Vector II. That doesn't get entered into the equation does it.

There are people who have never seen my Racers and others who haven't seen me under a square parachute. I am not a die hard Racer fan like you are making me out. I just want real information before coming to a conclusion.

Beatnik I think this warrents a post to you. I did not mean for it to sound like I was only refering to you.
I was more refering to PM's I have received. Sorry I did not mention that.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[linebckr83 3]

Quote

I have also recived PM's from Racer folks basically saying my Vector is a death trap.

Call me crazy, but I can point out a few differences between my V3 and a live underground roadside bomb

"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

[Rstanley0312 0]

Quote

Quote

I have also recived PM's from Racer folks basically saying my Vector is a death trap.

Call me crazy, but I can point out a few differences between my V3 and a live underground roadside bomb

I was starting to believe they are the same thing....

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com