WFFC 1 #76 August 19, 2004 QuoteBesides wasn't it non-jumpers that led to the demise of the Quincy event? Local non jumpers who never paid the registation fee anyway. Since the move, you must be a jumper or have a jumper sign you off to let you in.----- ~~~Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WFFC 1 #77 August 19, 2004 Quote... and aircraft running 2 minutes apart ... 4 minutes.----- ~~~Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #78 August 19, 2004 Quote4 minutes Umm ask Mullins? LOL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #79 August 19, 2004 QuoteI would assume that a plane could arrange to get back into the pattern for a go-around the same way that they get into the pattern for their first pass. Man, if it was only that simple. First off, the big sky theory is not in effect at convention. On the contrary, it is a very small sky in regards to what they are trying to accomplish. Without getting into the weeds, I will try and paint a picture that makes sense. Think of it as a race track with an ON ramp and a OFF ramp where you must get on and off at the designated ramps. Lets say your A/C does a go around. Your plane happens to get back into the pattern but is only a minute behind the A/C in front of it. It can't just drop it's people because you would be raining people down on top of one another. So your A/C now will have to loiter in already cramped airspace waiting to establish the seperation time. Which in turn means everyone is waiting on all the planes to get out, A/C are burning more fuel and any semblance of order in the 3 parallel jumps runs is forever lost. That is a very simplistic explanation and doesn't cover the whole spectrum of variables involved and there are many. I am really amazed that something with so many moving parts with so many possible variables that something didn't go wrong. There are several factors involved that fundamentally drive this course of action. One being safety the second the O'l mighty dollar. Timing is critical in the grand scheme of things which is why Tandems were put out first as were Birdmen again this year in order to do things safely.(if you must know the gruesome details PM me with why you have to absolutely know and I will attempt to explain something as easy to bear as fingernails on a chalk board)You don't make money by flying around in circles in the sky so a handful of people can get a perfect spot. If you go to convention thinking your going to have perfect spots and go arounds your hypoxic. If you go to convention you should expect off landings. If thats not acceptable then jump at your DZ or a smaller event. Something this big with many moving pieces and your going to have people landing off, it's inevitable. To try and incorporate go arounds is asking for a disaster and a logistical nightmare. I am amazed at how many skydivers really have no idea what is going on in the sky while they are in an A/C. If anyone is really interested in knowing the details then I invite you to go talk to either Bryan Burke or Larry Hill at the next convention. I guarentee you will walk away with your head hurting and what you think is jello coming out of your ears. Once you get a taste of the complexity of everything involved you will undoubtedly be afraid since you know there is a large human factor involved in something that already sounds logistically impossible."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #80 August 19, 2004 I was on three different Tandem jumps, and we were out last. I was also on the plane a number of times when the Tandems were out last. Also AFF students were out last.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #81 August 19, 2004 That was an exception and not the rule. Tandems landing in the spectator area were able to get out last. Which also caused some considerable hair pulling since tandems deploy higher and subsequently affect the follow on loads timing in the pattern."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #82 August 19, 2004 The tandems went out either first or last depending on the jump run. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WFFC 1 #83 August 19, 2004 QuoteThe tandems went out either first or last depending on the jump run. I believe they were also told to pull no higher than 4k too. (at least that's what Ralph was told)----- ~~~Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WFFC 1 #84 August 19, 2004 QuoteQuote4 minutes Umm ask Mullins? LOL He just has a sportcar of a plane. Those damn otters are just too slow... ----- ~~~Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
indyz 1 #85 August 19, 2004 OK, this is going to be my last post on the subject because if I don't make myself clear by the end of it, I don't think I ever will. First and foremost, I am not arguing for or against go-arounds at the Convetion. Even before I walked onto the airport at my first WFFC, I knew full well that my options with a bad spot were to either get out anyway or eat the ticket. I have gotten out several times even when I knew that there was no way I was going to make it back (soccer field, corn field, bean field, in that order). I am merely at odds with Betsy's blanket statement that go-arounds at the Convention are unsafe. Secondly, I think we are working on two sides of the same argument. As far as I can tell, you acknowledge that go-arounds can be done safely, but that they are enormously incovenient for everybody involved, not to mention expensive. I agree with that 100%, and that is the point that I have been trying to make: A safe go-around can be accomplished at the WFFC, but they are generally not done because the hassle and expense are simply not worth it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #86 August 19, 2004 Definately agree with you on the go arounds, with that many A/C in the air, and multiple parallel jumpruns it's a seriously unsafe thing to do. As for... QuoteI would also think it wise to better enforce a no fly zone 500 feet above all tents, and no swooping the cart drivers! Killjoy! What no Ms. Fun Police?!---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #87 August 19, 2004 QuoteAnyway, I stand by my argument that if it is safe to take off, fly a big circle while climbing, and get into the pattern, then it should also be safe to fly a big circle while maintaining altitude and get into the pattern. If the WFFC or the aircraft owners don't want to give go-arounds because it is inconvenient or not profitable, then those are their rules and I can play by them or go home. But I maintain that the pilots and ground crew at Rantoul absolutely have the ability to arrange for a safe go-around. Got a pilot's licence? Ever Dropped Jumpers? Ever flown in a formation? Ever run a boogie? ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #88 August 19, 2004 QuoteThe tandems went out either first or last depending on the jump run. I believe they were also told to pull no higher than 4k too. OK, first, I'll just obey Brian Burke on principle. If he tells me that's the deal, I'll take it. I feel completely safe when BBurke is in charge. That said, I don't like deploying that low with a tandem. Particularly if I have an iffy spot, fully loaded, on tired gear. But if Brian knew all that and made that rule, I'd go with it. I just never pull a tandem that low if I don't have to. Alone, on my gear, I'm happy to pull at 2K. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tfelber 0 #89 August 19, 2004 I here a lot of complaints involving spots. Out of 34 jumps I made, I landed across the landing runway twice (no big deal), On the soccer field once (my fault), 15 miles away (It was a balloon jump), In the spectator area twice (Once intentionally). The rest of the time I landed in the main landing area. I don't see a problem. I know of one group that left the Casa when the door opened (Prior to the green light) can't blame that on the pilots. I went up in everything out there (third year in a row) and I think most people, including myself, that landed out have no one to fault but themselves. Are there things we can change to make it better, you bet, but given the number of A/C flying and the variations of horizontal and vertical speeds I think the pilots and the controllers did one hell of a job. Thank you for your diligence...you probaly saved several people's lives!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #90 August 19, 2004 QuoteOK, first, I'll just obey Brian Burke on principle. If he tells me that's the deal, I'll take it. I feel completely safe when BBurke is in charge. That said, I don't like deploying that low with a tandem. Particularly if I have an iffy spot, fully loaded, on tired gear. But if Brian knew all that and made that rule, I'd go with it. I just never pull a tandem that low if I don't have to. Alone, on my gear, I'm happy to pull at 2K. I agree Mr. Burke is the man when it comes to thinking the saftey aspects of a stiuation. I wouldn't take a tandem that low intentionaly. If that's what Mr. Burke said it took to be safe, I wouldn't take up a tandem myself.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #91 August 19, 2004 Huh huh,.... like move it to where there aren't squall line thunderstorms and umpteen weather holds, .... huh huh.....< beavus vioce off> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #92 August 19, 2004 QuoteKilljoy! What no Ms. Fun Police Well its all fun and games until someone loses and eye or sumpin'! Having a cart driver scared and a person nearly hitting her and a baby on the other side wasn't cool. Then to watch as someone swooped a car and nearly hit it..well you know Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #93 August 19, 2004 they need to put more hand sanitizers at the portopotties. maybe have one or two on a post in front of each portopotty group if they want to save money. a speciality aircraft. the PAC was fun, but considering it will probably be fairly common at a lot of DZs in a few years, its not really a speciality. (having night jumps out of it was a GREAT idea though) a few water fountains scattered around. its kind of a pain to walk back to your car to get a drink. do a better job keeping out the whuffos at night. i spotted lots of kids, especially on golf carts, after dark. i didn't pay $69 so that some local minors could get free beer and fun. and was i the only one who found the free coke?!?! they should make it easier to find. MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #94 August 19, 2004 Quoteand was i the only one who found the free coke?!?! they should make it easier to find. Seriously? You found it? Next time share that little piece of information. ___________________________________________ meow I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taffy 0 #95 August 19, 2004 The Weather and some space heaters in the tents Sky Pikey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #96 August 19, 2004 I made all but 2 jumps out of CASA. The last one was Raft jump, in which I knew I was going to land off, I just didn't expect to be in the next town - I was hoping for the golf course. The people that FINALLY stopped to pick up me and Brent said "I guess we could take you to Rantoul." The one good thing about landing that far away was I got to see where the Wal-Mart and Pizza Hut were on the way back. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #97 August 19, 2004 QuoteThe Weather and some space heaters in the tents We did have a bit of a cold spell this year. If it's like that next year and there is enough money in the DZcom acct., i'll be happy to run into town and pick up some space heaters. Ok, more like i'll be happy to make Kai drive me into town to pick them up. ___________________________________________ meow I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #98 August 19, 2004 QuoteSuggestions? Get the security to chill out a little. The 15 year old punk ass kid at the gate to the rv park saw me go by 5 time and yet still asked to see my wrist band with his respect my authority attitude. I seriously doubt that will happen. Don Kirlin was laughing that a few times that he got stopped by security to see his band... even when wearing his hat. Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #99 August 19, 2004 QuoteWell its all fun and games until someone loses and eye or sumpin'! No, no, no. It goes: "It's all fun and games till someone gets hurt. Then it's fucking hilarious!" ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #100 August 19, 2004 QuoteQuoteWell its all fun and games until someone loses and eye or sumpin'! No, no, no. It goes: "It's all fun and games till someone gets hurt. Then it's fucking hilarious!" You're both wrong: It goes: "It's all fun and games till someone loses an eye. Then it's a sport!"Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
