4 Way advanced just got a little more interesting.

[ltdiver 3]

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I too am also sad of this turn of events. I know that Alan and Baat along with Lori doing video, worked hard.

I for one am still very proud of them.

WAY TO GO EXCEED!

Thank you so much for your kind and supportive words, Mar and b^2.

Today has been a very hard day since the very unexpected turn of events. We filed a protest with the chief judge, controller, and meet director but it was turned down. We were happy to compete as a guest team after learning the error, but they denied this.

It was a great year and I'd be on a team with these guys in an instant again. You'll never find a more caring, giving, and hard working team anywhere like this one, IMHO. This is, by far, the best team I've ever had the pleasure of training a season with.

oh, and btw, my team decided to fun jump the rest of the dives we weren't able to have the judges judge and had them viewed by a world competitor. We ended the 'meet' with a 15.1 average

way to go, guys!
ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[Shark 0]

Bummer. Hope you guys had fun, though.
Besides, we need Alan back at 'Snore for tandems/AFF.

[flyangel2 2]

Lori,
I'm confused here. Is there a time limit as to when a member is in a World Meet and then does the Nationals in the Inter. division?

What was the reason give for the judge to deny your protest?

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[UKFSChick 0]

I think it's pretty bad form that they would not let you compete as a guest team. Filing a bunch of 000s seems like laboring the point somewhat.

The people who matter know what you guys scored, and a 15+ average is a 15+ average, no matter how you look at it.

Congrats to all of you on Exceed, you did a great job, despite the technicalities - please pass that on to Christy from me. I look forward to seeing what you do next year.

Emma

[quade 3]

See SCM 1-1.4: QUALIFICATION REQUIREMENTS.

Specifically paragraph D which says;

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Guest competitors and competitors who have either competed in any other country’s national championships (other than a U.S. citizen jumping at another country’s nationals as a guest competitor) or represented any other country at an FAI-sanctioned World Cup or Championships in any competitive category in the three-year period immediately prior to entering the U.S. National Championships are not eligible to receive a U.S. Nationals medal or to serve as U.S. Team members.

I truly believe this was an innocent technical error on the part of the Alan as I had asked him specifically about it at the beginning of the year at one of their very early team practices and it seemed to me he believed he was qualified to compete. Alan seems to me like one of the more honest guys on the planet and for there to be some implication by the meet management that he and his team had intentionally tried to mislead them in order to win a medal seems outlandish. I'd be willing to testify that at the start of the year Alan didn't even think he'd be in medal contention because that's exactly what he and Baat told me at the very beginning of the year.

As you might be able to read, I'm very sorry for the entire Exceed team. They came a LONG way this year and earned their point average by very hard work. I was -extremely- jealous of Lori for swooping the camera flyer slot.

Ok, so they didn't get their medals and had to step down, but why the hell did the meet management have to be so darn . . . mean . . . about it by DQing them?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[UKFSChick 0]

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Ok, so they didn't get their medals and had to step down, but why the hell did the meet management have to be so darn . . . mean . . . about it by DQing them?

Quite. I think at that level it's more about the average than the medal so I'm sure they wouldn't have objected to being listed as a Guest. (Airspeed and Blade seemed to be ok with it, after all.) How was the omission unearthed?

[quade 3]

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How was the omission unearthed?

That's the subject of rumor and inuendo. I won't be repeating any of that.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[VanillaSkyGirl 6]

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ITS AN ELSINORE SWEEP IN THE ADVANCED DIVISION. . .

WOO HOO

I sure don't care if someone posted this already but I just got real excited. . .lol

How cool, Darcy!

I was at Perris today, but I left before I heard the great news! I'm sooo freakin happy for my Elsinore peeps! YAY! I ended up sneaking away to have dinner with my mother, but I should have stayed at Perris because Jonathon and the gang kept asking if I would stay and party. Damn...

CONGRATULATIONS TO EVERYONE WHO WON A MEDAL!!! Also, cheers to the teams who flew their best and worked so hard all year.

• Quote

[lewmonst 0]

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Per Omniskore:

...after a quick peak in the inbox, about a half dozen people questioning why Carolina ICE didn't just ride the plane down and take a quick turn-around. It's a good question, and that's what I'd have done. It sounds like a case of simply not knowing the rules...why someone else in the plane didn't point that out, I don't know...

ICE didn't know the rules. The team camera flyer had not climbed out, but the meet camera flyer was already outside. The team didn't know their rights or what to do and just starting taking their position in the door, and just went. Unfortunately, the camera was working fine, it was just that the Cam-eye was not plugged in all the way so the team camera flyer didn't know if the camera was on. Light turned green and he took his helmet off to look at what the problem was. It was at that point that the team started getting out. Very unfortunate example as to why camera flyers should check everything about the camera (focus, zoom, light, etc...) before jumprun.

Not only did no one else in the plane mention that they could get a go around or simply ride down, it was from another team that this rule-bust was reported after the video had been submitted as the team video. Had the team taken the 0 for a total camera bust on that jump, they could have still scored in round 9 & 10.

peace
lew

http://www.exitshot.com

[skyyhi 0]

Awe. . .thats poopy too. . .they were doing so well. How unfortunate is this turn of events. ICE was doing so well and seemed to be in contention for gold. . .

Exceed. . .hmmm, I have watched them training when I was out at perris. . .always smiling and seemed to be in it for fun. This is pretty darn sad. . .

________________________________________
Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ
FGF #6
Darcy

[mouth 0]

Lori,

I know you've trained very hard this year and I'm very proud of all that you guys have accomplished. Yes, the medals would have been nice but sometimes it is just knowing that you can do it that is even better and you guys KNOW you can do it and do it well.

Congrats on a job well done even without the medals.

HUGS sweetie.

Oh and call me since I lost my phone again and had to get a new one.

--
Hot Mama
At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit.

[skyyhi 0]

Lori,

We will try to do you proud on 10-way. . .thanks for taking us on. Our little newbie selves are ready to have some fun this Saturday. . .

________________________________________
Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ
FGF #6
Darcy

[kallend 1,635]

Quote

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Per Omniskore:

...after a quick peak in the inbox, about a half dozen people questioning why Carolina ICE didn't just ride the plane down and take a quick turn-around. It's a good question, and that's what I'd have done. It sounds like a case of simply not knowing the rules...why someone else in the plane didn't point that out, I don't know...

ICE didn't know the rules. The team camera flyer had not climbed out, but the meet camera flyer was already outside. The team didn't know their rights or what to do and just starting taking their position in the door, and just went. Unfortunately, the camera was working fine, it was just that the Cam-eye was not plugged in all the way so the team camera flyer didn't know if the camera was on. Light turned green and he took his helmet off to look at what the problem was. It was at that point that the team started getting out. Very unfortunate example as to why camera flyers should check everything about the camera (focus, zoom, light, etc...) before jumprun.

Not only did no one else in the plane mention that they could get a go around or simply ride down, it was from another team that this rule-bust was reported after the video had been submitted as the team video. Had the team taken the 0 for a total camera bust on that jump, they could have still scored in round 9 & 10.

peace
lew

Not knowing the rules is not an excuse. It is every team member's job to know the rules.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,635]

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I think it's pretty bad form that they would not let you compete as a guest team. Filing a bunch of 000s seems like laboring the point somewhat.

The people who matter know what you guys scored, and a 15+ average is a 15+ average, no matter how you look at it.

Congrats to all of you on Exceed, you did a great job, despite the technicalities - please pass that on to Christy from me. I look forward to seeing what you do next year.

Emma

Sorry, but I disagree. There has to be some sanction for rulebreaking. It IS a rule and they DID break it. Just making them a guest team is not a sanction, since that's what they actually were in the first place. Any guest team could try to enter as a medal-qualified team if the worst that happens is that they are found out and put back in the guest category.

Ignorance is no excuse.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[tigra 0]

Like the old single file rule in 10 way?

[Zenister 0]

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it was from another team that this rule-bust was reported after the video had been submitted as the team video. Had the team taken the 0 for a total camera bust on that jump, they could have still scored in round 9 & 10.

asshats...

do they give out worst sportmanship awards?? they should...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[kallend 1,635]

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Like the old single file rule in 10 way?

Problem with that rule is that "single file" was undefined. That's why the rule was changed.

BTW my team was never busted on it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[hoppinnpoppin 0]

now this is a good thread....


thanks everyone for the info.

Send lawers, guns and money!!!!!

The shit has hit the fan!

[ltdiver 3]

Kallend, my friend.

We all understand your viewpoint, and personally I agree that there is no excuse for rule breaking. Competitors should always know the rules and adhere to them.

Here is the list of events as was known to me -just- yesterday. Like Paul said earlier in this thread, I had asked my team early in the season if they were all qualified for a medal in this year's Nat's. You see, 3 of the 4 were foreign born. One from Thailand. One from Canada. One from Israel. They are now all U.S. citizens and have been for quite some time. They qualified for competing on a U.S. team. That was as far as the discussion went.

What came up yesterday...

In 2001, Alan competed for Israel at the World Meet. Then at last year's U.S. Nationals competed as a guest team, as per the 3 year USPA rules. No problem.

In 2002, Alan was invited to again compete for Israel at the World Air Games. He notified them that his FAI license had expired and he couldn't. They insisted that he could, per their rules. 25% of a team could be a guest competitor. He checked with the judges there and was able to register with the Israeli team with his USPA membership not an FAI license, a thus make this Israel team ineligible for a World Cup medal. They were o.k. with that. They wanted Alan as their teammate anyway. They then assured him that this would -not- interfere with his U.S. Nationals in 2004. He accepted the invitation and competed.

When the issue was reported to the judging panel here, at -this- Nationals yesterday, Alan explained his situation. He was under the impression that he had been a guest and this did not preclude his entry into 2004's Nat's.

Unfortunately, the panel here did not accept his explanation and decided to make an example out of the situation. Not only bumping our team to guest, but then deciding to disqualify us.

As I said before, we were very happy to be demoted to guest team and keep jumping after we all learned the story of what had transpired. Unfortunately they didn't agree.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[tigra 0]

I think the problem was not the it was undefined- "single file" should be self explanatory- the problem was that it was inconsistently enforced, as has been the problem many times in many different events at past Nationals. (Am I wrong?)

(And I know it wasn't your team!)

This year, the "rules" so far seem to have been consistently enforced even though the outcome seems pretty harsh to me.

[diablopilot 2]

And lLori, I'd personaly agree that the fact he competed with the Israeli team in GUEST capacity, did not invalidate his status as eligible for a medal at the 2004 National. Pretty poor decision on the part of the meet judges IMO. Sounds like ihis participation on the Israeli team bumped them out of contention for a medal. In the spirit of the rules as well as the law of them I do not think Alan did anything wrong.

No if any of the roumor I haea about the politics of this issue are found to be true, there is some very dirty underhandedness going on and a lot of talk has been nothing but hot air. Some people probably should be ashamed of themselves.

Exceed: Nice job, and good on ya' for keep in your heads up and still compeating.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Not only did no one else in the plane mention that they could get a go around or simply ride down, it was from another team that this rule-bust was reported after the video had been submitted as the team video. Had the team taken the 0 for a total camera bust on that jump, they could have still scored in round 9 & 10.

It's not anyone elses job, nor could anyone be expected to break from their "game mode" to advise another team on the ruls on jump run. The team made a mistake in not waiting for their 5th team member to be ready. I can understand that, it's a very busy time in the back of the plane on jump run. They just didn't think of riding down.

The problem lies in that the KNEW they had ilegal video of the jump. I could see them going up and asking the judges if it might be permisible to submit the video, and would expect the judges to then say "No". Continu on with round ten and take the zero. But to just secretivly submit the video? That wasn't playing inside the spirit of the rules, and disqualification is the only answer I can see as being fit.

I AM rather surprised the meet videographe agreed to any of this. Their job as I see it is simply to capture images of the meet, not to get involved in it.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Deuce 1]

SoCal (real good to see you BTW), I was there when the camera flier was explaining for the first time to his close freinds what happened. He's an honest man who got caught up in a cascade of bad decisions.

I was blessed to have jumped with a team who treated me as a fifth member. Some teams are composed of skygods with enormous reputations and status and a "hired hand" camera flier. Despite knowing what is right and what is probably wrong, under pressure people sometimes make bad choices. At that time there is a fork in the road where the bad angel erupts over the left shoulder and says "Do it! You won't get caught". When a group of skygod team members and a skygod camera flier say "Do it, hired hand!" sometimes a bad decision is made and then compounded by the getting caught. When caught lying, a really big problem is made from a relatively small one.

This is a situation where a good guy got caught in a bad situation and was caught up being convinced to do something he really suspected was wrong by people he respected and trusted. He did not come up with this idea. It was pressed upon him.

-AND-

Yeah, (to another post in this thread) I think it's nuts to not jump two cameras at something like this. Someone I respect was down there and said they'd only go to the trouble of jumping two cameras if they were in advanced or open class.

Not me. I had one of my cameras turn off on a round, and used the "B" camera to dub that round. However, think about doing 10 rounds for $20 per. That's $200 minus pack jobs. For that sum you put two PC120's ($1500 used) with two wideangles ($320) with two cameye's ($110) on a Flat Top Pro ($700).

That's more than $2600 worth of video gear, just on the cabeza. A good digital still setup adds almost $3000 to that. Lots of camera fliers just can't afford to jump two cameras on a big expensive helmet, and LOTS of teams don't want to compensate their camera fliers at all.

[flyangel2 2]

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No if any of the roumor I haea about the politics of this issue are found to be true, there is some very dirty underhandedness going on and a lot of talk has been nothing but hot air. Some people probably should be ashamed of themselves.

Karm will come back and bit those people big time.

Team Exceed has nothing but good karma. They are a team that I would be honored to jump with any time. And I'm honored to call Lori, Alan, and Baat my friends.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[skykittykat 0]

Quite. I think at that level it's more about the average than the medal so I'm sure they wouldn't have objected to being listed as a Guest. (Airspeed and Blade seemed to be ok with it, after all.) How was the omission unearthed?