Do think a jump pilot has a reason to be angry when this happens?

[peek 20]

So, do think a jump pilot has a reason to be angry when a Tandem instructor does something like this?

http://www.skydivestlouisarea.com/throwdrogueoutthedoor.mpg(no audio)

[AggieDave 6]

That wasn't the smartest thing a TI could do. I think the pilot has a valid complaint with the TI.

I hate the seated position in a 182 for the TI. You drag your drogue around on everything. I stay in a kneeling position on my knees, hunched down so I can stay low, with my student sitting on their butt. It lets me have a good launch (off my knees), keeps the drogue off the floor and the door frame, and keeps the rig out of the wind from trying to climb out on the step (like some TI's *still* do).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Andy9o8 0]

I think anyone still in the plane, pilot or otherwise, has valid reason to be concerned at that.

[NWFlyer 2]

I'm not a TI, so I will refrain from commenting on how the TI might have caused the situation to go more smoothly, but it seems to me like the video might be misnamed. A more appropriate name might be ohshitdroguesoutgetthisthingoffus.mpg.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[TheCaptain 2]

I think the DZO and the Pilot have every right to be really upset with the TI. If the TI can not fly the exit without needing to get the drogue out instantly than they should not be an TI.

Kirk
He's dead Jim

[riggerrob 558]

Bad form on the part of the TI.

[riggerrob 558]

During thousands of sitting exits from Cessnas, I have only suffered on loose drogue.

That was my fault for not checking it after multiple practice exits on the ground.

A simpler way to do sitting exits is to slide backwards towards the door, until your pack leans on the instrument panel, then swing legs out.

[piisfish 135]

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I think the DZO and the Pilot have every right to be really upset with the TI. If the TI can not fly the exit without needing to get the drogue out instantly than they should not be an TI.

look at the video again.
It seems to me he had his drogue out of the pocket while moving in the plane, ans had a ful drogue in the hand for exit. In that case I would have rode the plane down, repacked it, and got up again (as the videoman was already on the strut and unlikely to climb back down in the plane.).

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Samurai136 0]

It doesn't appear the instructor deployed the drogue for stability. It looks like the instructor snagged the drogue moving towards the door.

I agree with Rob's technique. I think the instructor needs some re-training for exiting a C182.

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[iluvtofly 0]

Take this with a grain of salt as I am in no way an instructor and have just barely over 100 jumps. But personally, if I saw that I would be scared shitless. I see potention for the bridal to get wrapped around the step or something REALLY REALLY bad happening.

[diablopilot 2]

Yes, if done once intentionally or as a repeated accident.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[TheCaptain 2]

I assumed that the TI pulled the Drogue right before exit, if he knew before hand that it had been extracted then he put everyone there in danger as getting ready to leave his right hand is on the door frame prior to exit (leaving the drogue out on the floor ). If the drogue somehow got extracted in the plane and he knew about it, he should have never left the plane, just think about the possible situtations if the drogue got out of the plane before they left the plane.

Kirk
He's dead Jim

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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I assumed that the TI pulled the Drogue right before exit, if he knew before hand that it had been extracted then he put everyone there in danger as getting ready to leave his right hand is on the door frame prior to exit (leaving the drogue out on the floor ). If the drogue somehow got extracted in the plane and he knew about it, he should have never left the plane, just think about the possible situtations if the drogue got out of the plane before they left the plane.

If the TM did pull the drogue before exit he should lose his rating. However I don't think he did; I think he snagged it. I agree with Rob, the sitting exit needs to be done from an aft facing position. The trouble he was having getting around the corner is just not acceptable. I am glad they got out of that one unscathed.

[Ether 0]

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The trouble he was having getting around the corner is just not acceptable. I am glad they got out of that one unscathed.

My first impression was that he threw the drogue intentionally because both TI and passenger were large and heavy (therefore concerned about stability).

Either way, to my newbie eyes it seems that maybe this combination of large TI and large passenger is ill-suited to the cramped conditions of this plane.

Question: Would you ever consider doing a tandem out of a larger plane that you wouldn't out of a cessna?

Looking for newbie rig, all components...

[councilman24 36]

Gary,

Let us know. Did he snag it and grab it to control it or pull it out himself before exit.

It looked to me like he pulled it out himself so he could exit with it in his hand.

I'd suggest he look at the classifieds for a new job. No, scratch that. Don't need him killing someone else.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[TheCaptain 2]

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Gary,

Let us know. Did he snag it and grab it to control it or pull it out himself before exit.

It looked to me like he pulled it out himself so he could exit with it in his hand.

I'd suggest he look at the classifieds for a new job. No, scratch that. Don't need him killing someone else.

I agree

Kirk
He's dead Jim

[peek 20]

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Did he snag it and grab it to control it or pull it out himself before exit.

He is a skilled enough instructor that he does not need the drogue for stability.

Apparently he snagged it (twice, once during the ride up, at which time he had the video guy help him get it back into the pouch.) A few weeks ago I saw several inches of drogue bridle hanging out before he boarded the same plane.

[councilman24 36]

Okay, if he was controlling a snag, don't fire him yet. Was that why he yelled go to the video go without a count? But continuing to snag means a change needs to be made. In the rig, in the plane, or in his technique.

Good it was controlled, bad it keeps happening.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[icevideot 0]

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If the drogue somehow got extracted in the plane and he knew about it, he should have never left the plane, just think about the possible situtations if the drogue got out of the plane before they left the plane.

I am not a TI.

I was just wondering, if he had that much trouble getting the student out the door and found the drogue to be compromised then what are the odds he could get him back inside?

I agree some advice and retraining from more experienced instructors could remedy future issues that will surely crop up otherwise.

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[Rover 9]

That's a shocker. IMO alot of what contributed to that was the exit technique. I jump mostly out of a 172 which is as small as a 182. It has substantial handles running across the cabin and along the top of the door that are a huge aid when it comes to exiting. It looks to me that the TI was trying to 'lever' himself out the door without having good handles to help him. I also think that he needs to adopt a right leg out left leg in exit position. This is easily done with a handle above the door which allows you to 'lift' yourself as you arrange your legs.

That being said, if there is any issue with the drogue before exit, land with the plane!!! It's only gas.

And operators, if your plane is being used for jumping, set it up properly for jumping!!

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

[SkydiveMO 0]

As the instructor in the video I would like to first state that what happened was very unsafe and I accept the criticism given. But, as is Gary’s style he has put this out without stating the circumstances and has left it out there for everyone to shit on the people involved (not the first time Gary has done this). As a regional director and lead S&TA I hardly see how anything is gained from putting anything out this way. After landing I reviewed what had happened and discussed it with all the other tandem instructors so that we could all learn from my F$#% up. That being said, I will now explain the events and my actions so that everyone can learn from my experience and some benefit can come from this rather than it turning into another flame fest.

A little background on me, I am a current instructor with over 1,000 tandems and 3,000 plus jumps. I have nearly 14 years in sport now and am an S&TA at the DZ. I take safety very seriously, mine as much as any other jumpers. I have never and will never state that I am in anyway above making mistakes in this sport and lord knows I’ve made my share so far. But what I have never done is repeat a mistake and I’ve taken every opportunity to learn from others experiences so that I don’t have to repeat their mistakes either. Please read the following account and imagine what you would have done and please explore all that could have been done to avoid it in the first place, I know I have over and over and over again.

I am 6’2” and it is difficult for me to kneel in the C-182. I find it much easier to work in a sitting position. I have done so out of the 182 on many hundreds of jumps and have always protected my handles and drogue with no issues. On this jump the student was an older gentlemen who was very inflexible and he had some difficulty turning around in the aircraft to hook up. To assist him I crammed myself into the back of the plane at which time I believe the drogue handle caught on something and pulled the drogue mostly out of its pocket. (At this point the jump should have been over, we should have landed the aircraft and the drogue properly stowed again). I had the videographer reach over us and put the drogue back in the pocket. He was able to get it mostly in and I was able, or thought I was able, to secure it the rest of the way. (Again at this point the jump should have been over and we should have landed to properly secure the drogue).

On jump run I found all handles to be in their proper places and we proceeded with the jump as normal. As we moved forward in the aircraft I made several checks of the drogue and found it to be in the pocket. When the student turned and put his feet out of the aircraft the drogue fell or was snagged in someway and pulled out of the pocket. I found myself in the door with a very unsafe choice to make. Try and pull my student back into the plane or exit with an exposed drogue. I feared that in the attempt to pull the student back in I might cause the drogue to be pulled out the door. I quickly decided to grab the drogue and hold it on exit. I am very confident in my flying abilities and knew I could remain stable and quickly throw the drogue once clear of the aircraft. What I did not take into account was the length of the bridle. A portion of the bridle trailed in the door and had to slide out as we exited. This was very dangerous as it posed a very real snag hazard. In the video you can see I did clear the aircraft and throw the drogue while stable. The rest of the jump was routine.

So what went wrong? When moving around the aircraft I snagged the drogue handle. I could have made a better attempt to protect the handle but honestly this was a stuff happens event. At this point I should have called for the pilot to land the aircraft and on the ground put everything right again. Instead I stowed the drogue blindly and assumed (like an ass) that it was in properly secured by feel and not by double checking by sight, again only possible with the rig off on the ground. When I moved to the door I did make every attempt to verify that it was properly stowed but as events have proved this was not adequate or in any way wise. As far as exiting with the drogue in hand is concerned, I am very open to thoughts about this. I was very concerned that at any point the drogue might be pulled out of the aircraft and with the student already outside I made the snap decision to exit ASAP. The drogue was controlled but the bridle was not, so it was an all around bad situation.

Now that everyone understands the situation I am very open to any discussion of the events and the video and will answer any and all questions you may have.

[TheCaptain 2]

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I am not a TI.

I was just wondering, if he had that much trouble getting the student out the door and found the drogue to be compromised then what are the odds he could get him back inside?

I agree some advice and retraining from more experienced instructors could remedy future issues that will surely crop up otherwise.

Looking at the video, I do not see him spending much time with his right hand feeling for the drogue just before exit, so in my mind it appears (since he leaves with it in his hand) as though he either knew about the extraction before putting the student out the door or extracted it on just prior to exiting. However, I gues the pilot may have brought it to his attention in the door.

Kirk
He's dead Jim

[Beerlight 0]

Guess it could happen on either a seated or a poised exit......... I had a TI throw his droque over my tail after a poised exit......broke spar in tail, bent the elevator. Not fun landing. Always issues with the TI scraping the door while out on the step.....

[Beerlight 0]

Did your pilot notice the droque deployment prior to your exit?

btw, shit happens, and you did good.

[SkydiveMO 0]

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Did your pilot notice the droque deployment prior to your exit?

btw, shit happens, and you did good.

Gary Peek was the pilot so you'd have to ask him.

I did what I thought best with what I was faced with... it was in no way good and I hope everyone can learn from it.