2-Stow Bag

[JerryBaumchen 1,050]

Hi ben,

Fantastic!!!!

That is a great idea of using the triangles to keep things from 'squooshing' out the sides.

Do you stow the lines on the top of the bag or the underside like with a reserve free bag?

I have always thought that the best system would be for the lines to be on top so that you do not have to flip anything around; and it would save time, maybe.

Now you've got me thinking.

JerryBaumchen

[riggerrob 558]

" ...

I have always thought that the best system would be for the lines to be on top so that you do not have to flip anything around; and it would save time, maybe.

Now you've got me thinking.

JerryBaumchen

"

....................................................................

I am claiming credit for the line stow pocket on R.I. Aviators being on top. It saves a minute or two while packing, but - far more importantly - eliminates confusion over whether you flipped the freebag left or right.

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

Hi ben,

Fantastic!!!!

That is a great idea of using the triangles to keep things from 'squooshing' out the sides.

Do you stow the lines on the top of the bag or the underside like with a reserve free bag?

I have always thought that the best system would be for the lines to be on top so that you do not have to flip anything around; and it would save time, maybe.

Now you've got me thinking.

JerryBaumchen

Thats how my Birdman specific D bag is built. D bag inserts into the container(grommet up) and the lines are on top of the bag, no rotation needed.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[bliston 0]

Thanks for the responses. I just edited my post to add the last picture with the tabs tucked in, must have forgot to hit upload.

- Yes, I still have two locking stows - I just make the addition and sewed it right on an extra bag. I just slapped in on rather than un-stick stuff and incorporate the mod into the existing seems.

- The pocket is in the same place as a standard free-bag (towards the jumpers back), as the last picture shows (#12), not on BOC side, Jerry. Given the direction the pilot chute is pulling I can't think of any other place it could work.

- I'm not sure I understand the need for the cotton (or non-nylon enforcement). Does cotton absorb the heat somehow? I used a fold over design for the top of the cover and a hidden stitch seem to sew on the pocket intentionally. Thought being that the lines would not have be exposed to any rough stitching. I did this thinking that if they could just travel over/past the parapack that that would be the best for the lines. Maybe I'm missing something here. I sure don't want to risk damaging the lineset. I've never seen friction damage to the inside/top of freebags (between the velcro) but maybe that's because they usually only have a few deployments. I had also thought about incorporating another small cover/channel for the first bit of line that goes down the middle of the pocket (from the second locking stow) since the rest of the lines are traveling right over it. If heat friction is a concern with the material between the magnets, maybe this would be important to protect the lineset, too. I imagine that another long triangle with the base at the bottom of the pocket and the point extending past one side of the channel opening would do the trick.

- In terms of the magnets releasing, I imagine if it works as I intended it to, that the magnets will not release during deployment, just like the velco doesn't release during the reserve deployment. Hopefully the lines just play out through the center channel. I did test it by clamping the lines between the magnets and also splitting the cascades and pulling them free - seemed to take less force in both situations than it normally took to free a double stowed large rubber band (with 500 HMA and a velo inside). I just like the idea of the lines being able to bull through the magnets if they needed to (instead of having to force flaps open) to avoid a bag lock.

Please keep the thoughts coming - I don't want to use it until I clean up the design.

Thanks,
Ben

Mass Defiance 4-wayFS website


sticks!

[LouDiamond 1]

Check out the pics of the UPT bag to see what I am talking about when it comes to the non nylon material between the magnets on your design.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

Check out the pics of the UPT bag to see what I am talking about when it comes to the non nylon material between the magnets on your design.

That appears to be the same basic design as this one. I made it in 1997/98 and put about 1000 jumps on it packed in a Javelin.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

Quote

Check out the pics of the UPT bag to see what I am talking about when it comes to the non nylon material between the magnets on your design.

That appears to be the same basic design as this one. I made it in 1997/98 and put about 1000 jumps on it packed in a Javelin.

Sparky

They all are really the same in so much that they are rectangle bags that hold a parachute and lines. The biggest difference has been in the manner in which the lines are secured against the bag itself. The Australian version I recently saw has these two long walrus teeth/twizzler type tuck tabs that go through the grommets where most have traditional locking stows. The Mpod actually uses magnets on everything and is scary as hell as I recently watched video where the main was out of the D bag as soon as it left the container and before full line stretch was achieved.

I think the only way to build a new twist on this idea that hasn't been seen yet would be to build the flap that contains the lines into the main pack tray of the H/C. But that opens another line of discussion altogether.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[bliston 0]

Yeah, I see the white tape on the UPT bag that you are talking about, but I don't understand the need for it. Not saying there isn't a need, I'd just like to know the rationale behind it. There's been plenty of stuff that has come out in the past like mini-force risers, Reflex's catapult system, and even reverse risers (designed to protect the three ring components, right?) that haven't really been necessary.

Have any of you other folks that have been using bags with line stow pockets (velcro or other) noticed friction wear on HMA lines or the top of the parapack pouch where the lines exit?

Do you think that the white tape is there to protect the bag or the lines? I imagine that it must be the bag, or else there would also be concern about the "line on line" friction. Since the majority of the lines are pulled over the portion of lines that go from the second locking stow into the base of of the pocket, right? We know that HMA is more prone to abrasion than microline, but since it doesn't shrink maybe it's more resistant to heat damage from friction (either from the slider grommets during opening or as they come out of the pocket). I don't know anything about the structural properties of lines, maybe other folks can chime in.

Maybe I should have left more space between the two magnets just on the covering flap (not on the bag side) just to create a more open channel to reduce the contact there between the lines and the material. In hind sight I think I also should have make the side tuck tabs wider to make them a bit more secure. I only had one of the pieces of plastic that came with the old cypres instal kits and cut that in half the long way to use for the two flaps.

Ben

Mass Defiance 4-wayFS website


sticks!

[JohnDeere 0]

I have a reg. UPT bag and there is wear were the lines exit the bag to goto the 1st stow. I could only imagine how much friction/ heat could be caused by these bags having one exit point for the lines. You can see on my bag were the lines have worn the bag, not sure of line wear but sure there is some. I have about 3-400 jumps on this bag

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[FrEaK_aCcIdEnT 0]

Quote

I have a reg. UPT bag and there is wear were the lines exit the bag to goto the 1st stow. I could only imagine how much friction/ heat could be caused by these bags having one exit point for the lines. You can see on my bag were the lines have worn the bag, not sure of line wear but sure there is some. I have about 3-400 jumps on this bag

Either your bag has been worn to nothing or you forgot to include it.

ExPeCt ThE uNeXpEcTeD!
DoNt MiNd ThE tYpOs, Im LaZy On CoRrEcTiOnS!

[Beatnik 2]

Quote

Yeah, I see the white tape on the UPT bag that you are talking about, but I don't understand the need for it.

If it is cotton the reason would be to absorb heat. Cotton is extremely good at that. That is why on the original rings and ropes canopies they used cotton. I have seen through personal use cordura bags damaged from heat and used cotton to reinforce the area and no more problem. I imagine that this is doing the same thing on the UPT bag.

[JohnDeere 0]

Yea it got to small too take a picture of

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[riggerpaul 1]

Quote

Quote

Yeah, I see the white tape on the UPT bag that you are talking about, but I don't understand the need for it.

If it is cotton the reason would be to absorb heat. Cotton is extremely good at that. That is why on the original rings and ropes canopies they used cotton. I have seen through personal use cordura bags damaged from heat and used cotton to reinforce the area and no more problem. I imagine that this is doing the same thing on the UPT bag.

Wouldn't the yellow kevlar tape that is often used at the bag end of kill line bridles do even better?

[Beatnik 2]

Quote

Wouldn't the yellow kevlar tape that is often used at the bag end of kill line bridles do even better?

It could but cotton is cheap, easy to work with and does the job. Which is probably why it is used.

[pchapman 261]

What the best material is for protection of the lines is an interesting question.

Cotton can take more heat of friction, protecting the nylon behind it, but does that really need protecting? Would there ever be much more than the most minor heat glazing of the nylon pouch?

I'm more concerned with the expensive lines. So there I'd rather have something with low friction. Would the Kevlar work better? Or something else?

And if there is friction from a pouch for lines, we want to compare it not just to no friction at all, but against the normal case of lines in rubber bands. What is the friction of lines clamped tight against each other especially in double wrapped rubber bands? It might not be negligible.

While the situation is different, remember how lowly little rubber bands were abrading leg straps, when they were attached to hip rings as "t-shirt tie downs".

(When I get my rig from the DZ I'll have to have a look at the pouch [line stow pocket] on my rig, which I've used for about 600 jumps. Whether it added to line wear is so hard to tell if one doesn't go through identical line sets quickly.)

[antonija 0]

If you want to eliminate friction then get the most slippery material made. PTFE or Teflon. Someone out there must be able to make a strip of woven teflon fibres...

I understand the need for conformity. Without a concise set of rules to follow we would probably all have to resort to common sense. -David Thorne

[bliston 0]

Thanks for those thoughts, Peter... helpful. Look forward to hearing if you see any heat damage on your gear after you have a second to take a look.

What is the material that is used in most reserve bridles? I think I have some of that lying around. Since I live in a third world country, I can't just order stuff up.

I'm not sold yet on adding a buffer. If I decided to even use the bag (might just get a couple of the UPT ones that have been tested and proven), I wouldn't be that worried about bag wear. The construction of the addition only cost about 2 bucks in materials and rebuilding one, re-using the magnets and plastic of course, would only take about and hour and change. Since made it a bit narrower than the actual bag and just sewed it on top, it's not like I'd have to unpick a ton of thread or binding tape.

Thanks again for the thoughts,
Ben

Mass Defiance 4-wayFS website


sticks!

[JerryBaumchen 1,050]

Hi Ben,

Quote

What is the material that is used in most reserve bridles?

I've got some used 2" bridle material. How much are you going to need?

Send me your snail mail address & I'll send you a yard/meter or so.

JerryBaumchen

[Hooknswoop 19]

I haven't noticed any wear on my two bags, with either Crossfire or the Velocity. If I do notice wear, I'll switch to using some Kevlar tandem drogue bridle material to hold the magnets on the next bags instead of the nylon.

Derek V

[liftedtitan 0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVdgx3b_u8g

Moriuntur omnes, sed non omnes vixerunt.

[DoZ3r 0]

Quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVdgx3b_u8g

Just gotta love the lazybag...

If everything seems under control.. You're just not going fast enough..!

[hookitt 0]

Have you broken your neck yet since it's not a speed bag?

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Hooknswoop 19]

LOL, no. Put about 100 jumps on this design with a Velocity 84 and a 9-foot bridle. Always comes out of the bag on heading and zero hard openings. Easier and faster to pack than a normal bag.

Derek V

[anchorhole69 0]

Wow, that's a really cool D-bag. I didn't even know you could do something like that. You must be really good with your hands.

[bliston 0]

The link below has a download of a deployment video with the 2-stow main deployment bag I made using a Velo 90 and a Micron with magnetic riser covers. The video will only be available for download for a few days. The bag has side tuck tabs and magnets on top to create the channel of the line pouch - design pictures are posted earlier in this thread.

Frame by frame shows a clean and strait bag extraction, a bit of bag oscillation when the locking stows release, and what might be later than normal release of the risers from the riser covers (in comparison with the use of rubber band bags)... which I thought might happen since there was almost no tension needed to extract the lines until it came to the locking stows. You of course need to watch it frame by frame to make sense of anything.

It felt like the canopy "popped" out of the bag with a bit more force than normal, and if felt like the time from when I released the pilot chute to when I was vertical happened a bit faster than normal. Just based on one jump...

Yousendit.com link to 2-stow bag deployment

I think I might just use my normal deployment bags since I generally get smooth soft and on heading deployments or maybe buy one of the UPT bags... I was thinking of trying to mount my point n' shoot camera on the back of my helmet and take video of perhaps 10 deployments with a rubber band bag and 10 with the line pouch bag to see if either one seems to have any discernible advantages/disadvantages, but I'm not sure I like the idea of being a test jumper, especially when there's a tested and proven design for sale through the company. I think that the UPT design (with the figure 8 stow method and stronger tuck tabs on the top and sides) is also likely faster pack, has a more secure pouch design, and probably worth the money instead of building one.

Anyway, just thought folks thinking of using one of these might find the info/video helpful.

Ben

Mass Defiance 4-wayFS website


sticks!