jumper03 0 #26 June 30, 2009 Quote Quote The ONLY ONLY ONLY thing I can associate a "hard opening" and tracking to is the distance you swing to change direction. Nah, it's just because most people dive instead of track. I agree with you here!!! I pull in a track often and have no problems. Pulling in a dive would be a bitch...Scars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris-Ottawa 0 #27 June 30, 2009 Hey PMS, I'm not sure what you're trying to point out? I am most definitely going SLOWER vertically in a track than I am belly to earth, but obviously much more horizontally than belly to earth. Are you sure you're meaning to say you should be going FASTER in a track? As far as I was taught and understand, the SLOWER you go in a track is considered a better track and will (in theory) provide more horizontal separation. When I'm on a jump any bigger than a 2 way, I track my ass off and often deploy, turn around and think...did I track too far, or did they dump early? Why am I all the way over here. I have a goal for one of my Canada Day jumps this weekend. I will exit the otter, track for an entire jump and see what I get for freefall. I will post the results in this thread. Goal...90 seconds from 13.5 to 3. This means an average speed of 80mph (vertical) must be maintained.... Wish I still had my wingsuit....after only 5 jumps on it, I was getting 42mph vertical...I know I can get lower..."When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,427 #28 June 30, 2009 1) Many of us can hit higher airspeeds in a track than we can in freefall, even with the lower vertical speed taken into account. Thus the potential for harder openings. 2) You may have noticed that when students open head-down they get really funky openings. That's what you are effectively doing when you open in a track; your body has to rotate more, so you are effectively opening "head down." It doesn't take long to flare out, and it's a good opportunity to look around while you're waving off. (Note that the waveoff is a very good position to flare with.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #29 June 30, 2009 QuoteYour data only shows the vertical descent rate, not the total combined airspeed, which is what your canopy will deploy into. WS track vv = 120 km/h vh = 80 km/h |v| = 144.22 km/h My terminal speed in box is about 190-210 km/h. Higher deployment speed can cause harder opening, but this is not the case here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
surfbum5412 0 #30 June 30, 2009 The best sofe and snively on-heading openings I got from my Pilot were from deploying in a track. That was my experience with my pilot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #31 June 30, 2009 QuoteMaybe it is strictly my inexperience speaking, but theoretically Theoretically all sorts of things should happen. In reality alot of people get popped when they dump in a track. Falling straight down was the way that canopies and containers were designed. They're the most reliable when used in this way, and are generally packed for deployments from this body position. You change one thing (body position), other things will change as well (the opening). Belly to earth is a more reliable position from the standpoint that the speed and attitude can be easily repeated from jump to jump by most people. Tracking is a different skill, and many people don't have the skill to reliably repeat the indentical track jump after jump. Mnay jumpers onyl track for a few seconds each jump, and this does not build solid, repeatable skills. Yes, in theory, you should be able to dump right out of a track, no problem. There are probably mods you could make to your gear to overcome the differences in tracking skills, and get good openings on all tracks, but this is not the reality of things. The relaity is that the gear was designed for deployment falling straight down. Use it outside of that mode at your own risk. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dutton 0 #32 June 30, 2009 If you want to dump in a track, check that you are actually decelerating to a safe speed in a track first. Then when you deploy, sit up slightly so you reduce the angle of your container to line of deployment to 90 degrees. Now you are deploying your parachute the way it was designed. I deploy this way and have fine openings. You do pendulum back under your inflated canopy a bit but it is no big deal. Don't do this unless you can understand what I'm describing, and make sure you are slowing down your airspeed from one that provides comfortable openings otherwise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #33 June 30, 2009 Thanks ma'am, that's some fine advice. If you were a real man, you would reach your fingertips over to your PC from a max track and let it fly. Of course, I'm not a real man either, and I sit up if I'm dumping out of a track. Sat looks good this weekend, I'll bring some extra tampons in case you need to borrow one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dutton 0 #34 June 30, 2009 Extra large please. Been a rough week... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris-Ottawa 0 #35 June 30, 2009 Hey Dave, In a track, wouldn't "straight down" actually be the direction of the track and the oncoming relative wind? The canopy doesn't know vertical, only we do, all it can do is deploy into the relative wind. Aside from speed variations, there should be no difference whatsoever what "direction" your PC gets thrown or what orientation your body is in at that point in time. For example purposes, lets say your track results in an oncoming "Relative Wind" of 120mph...how is that different from being on your belly at 120mph? The PC still gets put into 120mph winds, only the human component changes at that point. Maybe I'm thinking about this too much, but I think "tracking" is being blamed for something that isn't necessarily provoked by doing it."When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #36 June 30, 2009 QuoteFor example purposes, lets say your track results in an oncoming "Relative Wind" of 120mph...how is that different from being on your belly at 120mph? The PC still gets put into 120mph winds, only the human component changes at that point. First, you're trying to hold the airspeed constant, which it may not be - as pointed out, tracking air speed is often higher than straight-down airspeed. Second, you're ignoring gravity, which affects the angle that things get pulled in once the chute starts to open. In straight-down freefall, everything is in line with gravity. In tracking, the human has to be swung down underneath the canopy to attain center of gravity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #37 June 30, 2009 QuoteFirst, you're trying to hold the airspeed constant, which it may not be - as pointed out, tracking air speed is often higher than straight-down airspeed. Give some data. I gave mine already. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #38 June 30, 2009 QuoteGive some data. I gave mine already. It looks to me like your data is for a wing-suit track. That may not be the same as a regular freefall track. As soon as I get this anemometer attached to the top of my helmet, I'll get back to you. I just hope those spinning cups don't fly off and put someone's eye out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettski74 0 #39 June 30, 2009 QuoteAs soon as I get this anemometer attached to the top of my helmet, I'll get back to you. I just hope those spinning cups don't fly off and put someone's eye out. Forget the anemometer. Use a pitot tube, or for something more realistic, you could just jump with a GPS that has the ability to store your tracking data for later. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,257 #40 June 30, 2009 QuoteThanks ma'am, that's some fine advice. If you were a real man, you would reach your fingertips over to your PC from a max track and let it fly. Seriously, consistently the best and softest openings I got from my Sabre1 (when not wingsuiting) were from dumping the PC with a flick of the wrist and keeping on tracking 'til linestretch. For max comfort and min height used it was the perfect opening.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #41 June 30, 2009 QuoteMaybe I'm thinking about this too much You really are. Dumping in a track is not a big deal if you do it right. All of your 'figuring' is correct, it can and does work just fine. If you do it right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martini 0 #42 July 1, 2009 What do you have against Sabre 1 canopies? I own four, jump three of them regularly, have about 400 jumps on them and have sweet openings. What do you base your opinion on? To keep from being a hijacker here I'll add my experience. Throwing in a track hasn't been a particular problem for me under any of the several canopies I've owned. These days I only fly wingsuits and throw in full flight when using a BASE pouch and not when going BOC. Mostly has to do with stability and timing not opening issues. BTW I use Sabre 1 canopies loaded 1.6 and 1.8 for wingsuit.Sometimes you eat the bear.............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #43 July 1, 2009 QuoteQuoteOK, so, I was just reading the thread about the Spectre slamming a guy and it was raised that it could have been linked to tracking at pull time. ...how the hell does that change ANYTHING? .... please enlighten me and help me understand why some people think this changes things. Because I believe most of us fall faster while tracking than in (belly to earth) formation skydiving. I certainly do. (See Andre's description of his fall rate in the other thread.) But this belief seems to be changing. (I have read comments from some people that they believe that they fall slower in a track.) . I most certainly fall slower in a track.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
